preacher4truth
Active Member
The bottom line? That God chose us is called to the floor in the court room!
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The LILAC of Arminian and Non-Cal Theology
- Thread starter preacher4truth
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The bottom line? That God chose us is called to the floor in the court room!
glfredrick
New Member
This is a post from another thread TODAY:
Rather LILACish, yes?
Here's one from Jan. 10:
Another from that date:
More:
More yet:
I can go on, but this is cumbersome.
Rather LILACish, yes?
Here's one from Jan. 10:
Another from that date:
More:
More yet:
I can go on, but this is cumbersome.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
glfredrick,
Same song second hundredth verse....
Does God will for you to sin? No.
Do you sin? Yes.
Did your will trump Gods? No.
You need to distinguish between God's sovereign unchanging decrees and his permissive desires if you are going to understand our actual points of disagreement in this debate. We don't believe man's will supersedes God any more so than you do, we just believe his will is different regarding His will to create either libertarianly free moral creatures or causually determined moral creatures. So, maybe we can stop this line of argumentation against us? Please?
Same song second hundredth verse....
Does God will for you to sin? No.
Do you sin? Yes.
Did your will trump Gods? No.
You need to distinguish between God's sovereign unchanging decrees and his permissive desires if you are going to understand our actual points of disagreement in this debate. We don't believe man's will supersedes God any more so than you do, we just believe his will is different regarding His will to create either libertarianly free moral creatures or causually determined moral creatures. So, maybe we can stop this line of argumentation against us? Please?
glfredrick
New Member
I'm posting comments from some on this board that demonstrate that they hold LILAC doctrines. :wavey:
preacher4truth
Active Member
Say it isn't so!!!
:smilewinkgrin:So much for the claim it doesn't exist.
Now, if some would actually address the false teachings of LILAC instead of attacking those who expose it. :wavey:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I can't imagine who said, "The Gospel is for those already saved, it is the good news of their Salvation..." but their rebuke is well deserved. Just do me a favor and stop pretending these types of comments represent the majority or even a good number of non-Cals here, because they don't.
And if you are going to quote someone you need to give them 'credit' for their quote or at least provide a link so we can read them in context...
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
preacher4truth
Active Member
Would you practice the same and recant the broad brush implication that Calvinists don't own up to their responsibilities? Thanks.
Another thing, the LILAC rightly represents some Arminians & non-Calvinists. They may not hold to each point, but they hold to some.
Take a gander, none of the following is misrepresentative:
True Arminians deny Eternal Security a la "Carnal Security."
Several on here hold to "Limited Depravity" which is an earmark of Arminian doctrine.
Then we have to go to "Arrestable Grace" another widely held non-cal and Arminian doctrine where they declare that Grace can be resisted.
As to "I elect God" take a look at what one teaches, not what one says.
"Limitless Atonement" is another belief of Arminians and some non-Calvinists.
Thus, this is not misrepresentative in the least.
The statement saying Calvinists and Armininans aren't that far off is untrue.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
\
"Limited Depravity" is not a hallmark of Arminianism. I offer the following:
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing
http://www.crivoice.org/creedremonstrants.html
quantumfaith
Active Member
Just so there is no more misunderstanding as to the "official" positions of Arminianism.
Article 1.
[Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2.
[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]
That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3.
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Article 4.
[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, Irresistible Grace]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
"The Articles of the Remonstrants" are adapted from Phillip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Volume 3, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, 1996, pp 545ff.
Article 1.
[Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2.
[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]
That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3.
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Article 4.
[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, Irresistible Grace]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
"The Articles of the Remonstrants" are adapted from Phillip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Volume 3, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, 1996, pp 545ff.
P4T states..."The statement saying Calvinists and Armininans aren't that far off is untrue"
Actually in Salvation theology.....MILES APART! I only make this statement for the reader who comes on BB & is scratching their heads, trying to figure this all out.
Suppose we as Christians go to the lost with the message that Jesus died for everyone but without the conviction that His death actually accomplished salvation for those who should believe!?! Think about that for a second. I would say to you... So what your telling me is that your proclaiming a redemption that does not redeem!?! A propitiation that doesnt propitiate?!? An atonement that doesnt atone!?! Blink, Blink...."Say What"?
Actually in Salvation theology.....MILES APART! I only make this statement for the reader who comes on BB & is scratching their heads, trying to figure this all out.
Suppose we as Christians go to the lost with the message that Jesus died for everyone but without the conviction that His death actually accomplished salvation for those who should believe!?! Think about that for a second. I would say to you... So what your telling me is that your proclaiming a redemption that does not redeem!?! A propitiation that doesnt propitiate?!? An atonement that doesnt atone!?! Blink, Blink...."Say What"?
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convicted1
Guest
Seeing that Sissy Amy is close to 600 y/o, I'd figure she'd use Oil of Sadness.......
:wavey: :flower: :tongue3:convicted1
Guest
Well, in the other system, you couldn't be honest when you told someone that Jesus died for them, could you? I mean, how could you tell them "yes", when in this system, Jesus only died for a select few? You wouldn't/couldn't know who the select few are. So if someone asked you, "Did Jesus die for me?" I guess you'd have to shrug your shoulders and move along.
BTW, I love your avatar! That's the color of wifey's 2010 'Stang! It's not the GT, nor the Roush, but it does have the 4.0(Pony package) that will go from 0 to "scoot" in no time. We are going to put some black racing strips down the hood, and on the trunk, tint the windows, etc. I mentioned this to my wife when we first got it, and she was against it. A few days later, we found out that someone living close to us has one that looks just like it. Well, she changed her tune about what I was wanting to do. She nows wants this, so that her car will look different that the other "smurf blue" 'Stang. :laugh:
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Well first Id tell them that Ephesians chapter one plainly teaches that before the foundation of the world, God, according to His own sovereign pleasure, elected a people to eternal salvation and made all of the arrangements necessary for them to live with Him in glory.
Then when they ask if Jesus died for the whole human race I would answer no, the Scriptures will not support that idea. Jesus said He came into the world to do the will of His Father, and that will was that He should save all who were given Him (the elect) even before the world began (John 6: 37-39). Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins, and He did it (Matt. 1: 21; Rom. 8: 33, 34). He died for His sheep, not for goats (John 10: 15). He died for sons, for the sanctified, for the brethren, for the church, and for the children (Heb. 2: 9-15). He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied (Isa. 53: 10-12) .
Lastly if they asked if what about some that might want salvation but could not have it because they are not one of the elect? My answer would remain , "The man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, he doesn't fear God, and he doesn't love God; therefore we conclude that the man who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3: 11, 18; I John 4: 10)" .
I am also a big fan of "American Made" muscle cars, particularly Mustangs & Shelby's. And I am trying to rescue a real Mustang Horse who is being abused up here in New Jersey.
Then when they ask if Jesus died for the whole human race I would answer no, the Scriptures will not support that idea. Jesus said He came into the world to do the will of His Father, and that will was that He should save all who were given Him (the elect) even before the world began (John 6: 37-39). Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins, and He did it (Matt. 1: 21; Rom. 8: 33, 34). He died for His sheep, not for goats (John 10: 15). He died for sons, for the sanctified, for the brethren, for the church, and for the children (Heb. 2: 9-15). He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied (Isa. 53: 10-12) .
Lastly if they asked if what about some that might want salvation but could not have it because they are not one of the elect? My answer would remain , "The man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, he doesn't fear God, and he doesn't love God; therefore we conclude that the man who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3: 11, 18; I John 4: 10)" .
I am also a big fan of "American Made" muscle cars, particularly Mustangs & Shelby's. And I am trying to rescue a real Mustang Horse who is being abused up here in New Jersey.
glfredrick
New Member
I posted just a couple of comments from one thread. I could fill posts to past the word count cut-off if I started gathering posts from other threads where like -- and worse, including a defense of Pelagianism -- comments occur.
I did not attribute the posts, though of course, I could. Board rules stipulate that I could and most likely would be censured for naming names, but I would sure like to.
In any case, the posts I made ARE the defense of others against doctrinal questions. They have been DEFENDING their positions with this sort of doctrine and others are giving them the thumbs up and agreeing with them, not always realizing (I hope!) what is actually being said, or how far afield of Scripture those responses go. So, my word back to you is to stop pretending that all "non-cals" are above board and biblical in their doctrines. They are not all there, though many are.
Hence, I STILL and ALWAYS call for individuals to publish their framework of doctrines so that we can see where they stand. One either believes and stands firm on his or her doctrines or they do not, but to stand silent on one's own doctrines while sniping at everyone else smacks of "keeping one's light hidden under a basket" so as to call others who are exposing their beliefs to the light evil.
Do you support that practice or are you in favor of exposing doctrines? Here's your chance! :thumbs:
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glfredrick
New Member
I have also posted these 5 articles on several occaisons, but some of the folks who are arguing in threads would just as much disavow the 5 articles as they would the TULIP. In fact, I have so far not actually run into ANYONE here on the board who actually holds to the 5 articles as presented above. If they are here, I would like them to stand in agreement, but I've not seen them in multiple debates on these issues.
Some hold to some points, but they modify some as well, even our resident Arminian, Skandelon. Perhaps you hold them, I'm not sure for it is rare that you make a POSITIVE statement about your own dotrinal structure; more often you resort to thumbs up for someone else's statements.
glfredrick
New Member
Of course we can... He did. WE CANNOT NAME OR NUMBER THE ELECT. That is God's business and the GOSPEL is freely offered to everyone. We are not heretical hyper-Calvinists who only offer the gospel to those "already saved." That is ludicrous on both the face of the argument and in reality where some of the most mission-minded and evangelistic persons EVER in the history of the church have been avowed Calvinists.
Calvin himself wrote that God had two graces, a general grace whereby the gospel went out to all people and a special grace whereby the elect were "effectually called" by the hearing of that gospel. This somewhat dovetails with the Catholic concept of previnient grace, and yes, Arminius "borrowed" that concept from Catholicism, and Wesley, later, as well.
preacher4truth
Active Member
What are we to preach to the lost Willis? I know you know this, it's the Gospel. It worked for Paul, Peter, and it works for us. Why? Because it is the power of God unto salvation, and this is the message to the lost, not meat of the word, the Gospel, not fine points of soteriology, the Gospel.
Every person after salvation grows in knowledge of Bible truths (ideally).
I will tell you this, I'd certainly avoid telling the person it is a power move on their part, that in them they have a power source called faith, and they can solicit God into them whenever they want or decide to. And that is exactly what is taught in here by some. As a matter of fact, some teach this to the lost, that just like sitting on a chair they can make God Savior (or very similar easy-believism illustrative tactics).
Instead I'd preach the Gospel to them. It will do it's job and those who are elect will be saved, 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
- Peace
I dont know who Willis thinks would shrug their shoulders & walk away......not with the power of the gospel right there to clarify things. Rather I stand in all confidence & assurance. Subsequently I have had success with people who at 1st were very adverse to it initially......my own brother was a IFB Youth Pastor & now a Calvinist, my wife, people at work, atheists & Catholics have all responded fairly well ....even folks on this board! No Im not afraid to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe cause they see in me a happy & changed man, so radically different they can not believe their eyes. Maybe they feel that if a heinous sinner like me could find Grace, then maybe their is hope for them as well. :godisgood:
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I COULD stand in agreement if I were able to ask the authors to define more clearly what is meant by 'assisting grace.' As I've explained in debates before, I consider the gospel itself to be a divine, supernatural, powerful, gracious work of the Holy Spirit that 'assists' or 'enables' man to hear, see, understand and turn. In other words, the gospel is a means of 'assisting grace' that can be resisted and thus would fit the criteria of what is explained in the articles above, but I'm not sure if that was the author's intent. I would have to ask them and they are dead.
That gospel, God's gracious means to enable salvation, was not even sent until the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost and Christ ascended into heaven. Before then, Christ was revealing himself to a select few from Israel who were to be the foundation for the church, the rest were being blinded temporarily.
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