The LILAC of Arminian and Non-Cal Theology

[psalms109:31]

Our universe is finite and IT is the box. God is the creator of the box and is infinite. So no, we cannot place God in a box, EVEN WHEN WE APPLY A THEOLOGICAL FRAMEWORK TO HIS ACTIONS.

I find your issues somewhat a dodge from the question at hand. I'd not fear placing God in a box by a theological framework.

Cannot one of the points be that INFINITE SOVEREIGN GOD CAN DO WHAT HE PLEASES? That certainly does not box in God at all, and yet I have found here on this board that somewhere around 60% of the respondents would disagree with that statement as an article in a doctrinal framework. I am most pleased, however, to add it to my own framework.

Matthew 11:25
[ The Father Revealed in the Son ] At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

All I have is His word and that is all i need praise Jesus.

 

[preacher4truth]

All I have is His word and that is all i need praise Jesus.

I know what you are trying to say above (I think) and I admit it really does sound rather pious.

Yet, in His Word He says he gave us pastors, teachers, evangelists which we also obviously need too, correct?

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-12.

If all we needed were a Bible, then God would have said that is all we need, and, we wouldn't have the Scripture above. Instead, we do have the Scripture above, and we also have many theological works by said God given ministers to help us in our walk and understanding.

- Peace

 

[Amy.G]

I hope this will clarify as to the why and that we can remain in unity with one another for the truth of the Gospel.

- Peace

I am in unity as long as you don't throw me out. LOL


If it's done in love I can accept that. If it's done out of a desire to be right, I reject that. Our debates on this board should be about clearing up false doctrines and not about pride.

As far as the LILAC goes (I love lilacs btw), I will give you my perspective.

L - Limited Depravity (nope. we're messed up from head to toe)

I - I elect God (nope. He sought me and bought me, but not apart from my faith in Him, clearly a command from Him to repent and believe)

L - Limitless Atonement (hmmm. well I don't believe animals can be saved so that would make it limited right? LOL) I believe Christ died for the whole world, making it possible for all to be forgiven.

A – Arrestable* Grace (not sure what this is. Can grace be resisted? According to Stephen, yes)

C - Carnal Security (if this means we keep ourselves saved by our good works, then I reject it)


Ok. So what am I?

 

[preacher4truth]

I am in unity as long as you don't throw me out. LOL


If it's done in love I can accept that. If it's done out of a desire to be right, I reject that. Our debates on this board should be about clearing up false doctrines and not about pride.

As far as the LILAC goes (I love lilacs btw), I will give you my perspective.

L - Limited Depravity (nope. we're messed up from head to toe)

I - I elect God (nope. He sought me and bought me, but not apart from my faith in Him, clearly a command from Him to repent and believe)

L - Limitless Atonement (hmmm. well I don't believe animals can be saved so that would make it limited right? LOL) I believe Christ died for the whole world, making it possible for all to be forgiven.

A – Arrestable* Grace (not sure what this is. Can grace be resisted? According to Stephen, yes)

C - Carnal Security (if this means we keep ourselves saved by our good works, then I reject it)


Ok. So what am I?

I am glad to see you reject some of the errant teachings above.

On Arrestable Grace (some say "arrestible") it does mean grace can be resisted. But this can become complex. To make it short, I don't believe His elect can resist grace forever, but will be saved.

Ok. So what am I?

Looking at your picture, hmmm, a poodle? Mutt? :tonofbricks: :laugh: :wavey:

 

[psalms109:31]

I know what you are trying to say above (I think) and I admit it really does sound rather pious.

Yet, in His Word He says he gave us pastors, teachers, evangelists which we also obviously need too, correct?

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-12.

If all we needed were a Bible, then God would have said that is all we need, and, we wouldn't have the Scripture above. Instead, we do have the Scripture above, and we also have many theological works by said God given ministers to help us in our walk and understanding.

- Peace

I find many teachers teaching is awesome one of the greatest is Spurgeon who will not change scripture to fit their doctrine. I do not listen to those who think their doctrine is more important than the inspired word of God.

We test all spirits by what?

 

[Amy.G]

Looking at your picture, hmmm, a poodle? Mutt? :tonofbricks: :laugh: :wavey:

Yep. You got me pegged! I never did fit in any particular mold. :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

I find many teachers teaching one of the greatest is Spurgeon who will not change scripture to fit their doctrine. I do not listen to those who think their doctrine is more important than the inspired word of God.

We test all spirits by what?

I see you agree that the statement "The Bible is all you need" is actually deficient.

You are aware of Spurgeon being a Calvinist, correct?

Who have you listened to that thinks their doctrine is more important than the Word of God?

 

[preacher4truth]

Yep. You got me pegged! I never did fit in any particular mold. :laugh:

lol...good for you! :laugh: :thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

I am in unity as long as you don't throw me out. LOL


If it's done in love I can accept that. If it's done out of a desire to be right, I reject that. Our debates on this board should be about clearing up false doctrines and not about pride.

As far as the LILAC goes (I love lilacs btw), I will give you my perspective.

L - Limited Depravity (nope. we're messed up from head to toe)

I - I elect God (nope. He sought me and bought me, but not apart from my faith in Him, clearly a command from Him to repent and believe)

L - Limitless Atonement (hmmm. well I don't believe animals can be saved so that would make it limited right? LOL) I believe Christ died for the whole world, making it possible for all to be forgiven.

A – Arrestable* Grace (not sure what this is. Can grace be resisted? According to Stephen, yes)

C - Carnal Security (if this means we keep ourselves saved by our good works, then I reject it)


Ok. So what am I?

Baptist... :laugh:

Actualy, you are closest to Amyraldism.

The below is a summation from Hodge's Theology:

•(T)he motive impelling God to redeem men was benevolence, or love to men in general.

•From this motive He sent His Son to make the salvation of all men possible.

•God, in virtue of a decretum universale hypotheticum [i.e., a hypothetical universal decree], offers salvation to all men if they believe in Christ.

•All men have a natural ability to repent and believe.

•But as this natural ability was counteracted by a moral inability, God determined to give his efficacious grace to a certain number of the human race, and thus to secure their salvation.

You are not alone in your views. Though Amyraut held to a Calvinist view that stipulated that regeneration must preceed faith, many Baptists, especialy those holding to a dispensational view, have abaondoned this point of doctrine and argue contra, i.e., that faith preceed regeneration. Something held only by Pelagians or by those who adopted Origien's thoughts preceeding Pelagius throughout the history of the church (generic).

For the record, Richard Baxter, a Middle Ages pastor of whom many have read held to a classical Amyraldism position. That teaching is most predominant today in IFB and similar Baptist churches with the caveat I suggested above, i.e., faith preceeds regeneration.

 

[Amy.G]

The thing is, the bible teaches both sovereign election and free will. Our will must be free to a certain extent because we were created in the image of God. Otherwise we are nothing more than chess pieces being moved about by God.
How God uses election and yet requires man to be responsible for his actions goes way beyond anything my puny mind can comprehend. And yet, it is all over scripture. Even the prince of preachers, C.H. Spurgeon could not fully comprehend it. I am certainly no better than he.

I know that God sought me. I also know that I asked Him to take over my life, repented and believed. How all this works is beyond me. But I am thankful for His love and mercy. Sometimes I think that I'll ask Him about it someday when we're face to face, but I doubt at that moment that I'll even care anymore.

 

[psalms109:31]

I see you agree that the statement "The Bible is all you need" is actually deficient.

You are aware of Spurgeon being a Calvinist, correct?

Who have you listened to that thinks their doctrine is more important than the Word of God?

Yes, i am s Spurgeon Calvinist, because of even with his doctrinal views he sees all as all, not like some of those like in this quote.

"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

C.H. Spurgeon

 

[Amy.G]

Baptist... :laugh:

Whew, that's a relief!

Actualy, you are closest to Amyraldism.

Must be since it contains my name. :laugh:

All men have a natural ability to repent and believe.

I don't think it is a "natural" ability. I believe it is a super natural, God given ability.

And yes, I believe faith precedes regeneration.

 

[preacher4truth]

The thing is, the bible teaches both sovereign election and free will. Our will must be free to a certain extent because we were created in the image of God. Otherwise we are nothing more than chess pieces being moved about by God.
How God uses election and yet requires man to be responsible for his actions goes way beyond anything my puny mind can comprehend. And yet, it is all over scripture. Even the prince of preachers, C.H. Spurgeon could not fully comprehend it. I am certainly no better than he.

I know that God sought me. I also know that I asked Him to take over my life, repented and believed. How all this works is beyond me. But I am thankful for His love and mercy. Sometimes I think that I'll ask Him about it someday when we're face to face, but I doubt at that moment that I'll even care anymore.

Yes, we were created in the image of God, yet, I believe some of that changed with the fall, and we are no longer "perfectly" in the image of God as prior to the fall. Our freewills were bound in sin prior to salvation, John 8, (we aren't free) and that He quickened us, Ephesians 2; and that now in Him, we are free, again, John 8.

No biggie though.

Someday you should read Jonathan Edwards "The Freedom of the Will." He has another work "The Religious Affections" which is excellent as well, though another topic, where he deals with "the enthusiasts" (basically the charismatics of his day.)

 

[preacher4truth]

Whew, that's a relief!


Must be since it contains my name. :laugh:




I don't think it is a "natural" ability. I believe it is a super natural, God given ability.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I'd give ya four, but you took up room with your laugh emoticon!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The thing is, the bible teaches both sovereign election and free will. Our will must be free to a certain extent because we were created in the image of God. Otherwise we are nothing more than chess pieces being moved about by God.
How God uses election and yet requires man to be responsible for his actions goes way beyond anything my puny mind can comprehend. And yet, it is all over scripture. Even the prince of preachers, C.H. Spurgeon could not fully comprehend it. I am certainly no better than he.

I know that God sought me. I also know that I asked Him to take over my life, repented and believed. How all this works is beyond me. But I am thankful for His love and mercy. Sometimes I think that I'll ask Him about it someday when we're face to face, but I doubt at that moment that I'll even care anymore.

Advise from a dear friend / Jim 1999). Always keep absolute sovereignty at the top when examining any doctrines. Even the free will of man falls under absolute sovereignty, which we call the permissive will of God....."thus far an no further." If the concepts offered do not fit this they are foreign to the whole of scripture.

 

[Rippon]

For the record, Richard Baxter, a Middle Ages pastor

Huh? He was in the Puritan era;certainly not in the Middle Ages!

 

[quantumfaith]

I see you agree that the statement "The Bible is all you need" is actually deficient.

You are aware of Spurgeon being a Calvinist, correct?

Who have you listened to that thinks their doctrine is more important than the Word of God?

Oh boy, here we go again. Can't keep from defining others as deficient. But I guess that is part and parcel, when you think that you and yourself alone is the ONLY who could POSSIBLY be correct on ANYTHING theological.

 

[Amy.G]

Huh? He was in the Puritan era;certainly not in the Middle Ages!

Yeah! LILACs hadn't even been invented back then. Good grief.

:laugh::laugh:

 

[glfredrick]

Huh? He was in the Puritan era;certainly not in the Middle Ages!

Whoops... I know that. Top of mind stuff, didn't fact check myself. :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

Yeah! LILACs hadn't even been invented back then. Good grief.

:laugh::laugh:

You'd be the one to know that! :laugh: