The limits of free will...

[Van]

If we were computers made of meat, to borrow a phrase, why would it bring glory to God for us to "repent" when that choice to forsake ourselves and trust in God, was the result of the compulsion of the past. That would be akin to thinking if a pull string doll said, "I love you" that would ascribe some honor or glory to whoever pulled the string. Who knew?

 

[jbh28]

According to compatibilism, because of his past, he could only choose one or the other, not either. Thus non-choice. Compatibilism is just exhaustive determinism by another name. We are actors in a play with no alternate endings. A rose by any other name...

The inspired word of God says God sets before us life and death, not life for some and death for others. Therefore Compatiblism is unbiblical. A ruse, a work of words to nullify scripture.

straw man. People do make choices.

 

[Robert Snow]

straw man. People do make choices.

I believe it would be inconsistent with God's nature to set before us a choice He knows we could not make. Thus, another error with the Calvinistic doctrine.

 

[rstrats]

jbh28,

re: "People do make choices."
　
But not conscious CHOICES to believe things.

 

[glfredrick]

I would toss limited free will (meaning the ability to make choices that change the outcome of our lives) into the spectrum between Compatibilism and libertarianism. Compatibilism is simply exhaustive determinism by another name. It is still advocating all the world is a stage and we are only speaking the lines in a play without alternate endings.

If you flip a coin to determine whether you go to McDonalds or Coco's, guess what, the outcome was foreordained. Your past, your willingness to accept the outcome of the coin toss predetermined your choice. In the case of choosing to trust in Christ, if you have not been altered by Irresistible Grace, you will reject Him 100% of the time. So its a rose by another name, and is still in the exhaustive determinism camp.

You failed to deal with the question I posed in the original post. Are there limits and if so, where are they? What justification for limits or not?

 

[glfredrick]

True, one can argue that only God himself has LFW, but could also argue not, as scripture has taught us that He will not violate His character. Our "free will" to whatever degree it can be defined, is quite obviously limited within the parameters and sample space of possibilities designed by the creator himself. Man also lacks the ability to create ex nihlio.

What are the limits, and why?

 

[StefanM]

I believe it would be inconsistent with God's nature to set before us a choice He knows we could not make. Thus, another error with the Calvinistic doctrine.

You mean like how God gave the law which he knew none of us would be able to follow perfectly?

 

[glfredrick]

Are we all just saying basically then that IF we were to ask God about this topic...

Are YOU absolutely in control , fully soverign
Or
is mankind born with free will?

"YES"

What are the limits of FW, if there are limits, and why?

That is the question I posed, not THAT there is free will, or not.

 

[glfredrick]

I agree partially with this. I believe God does limit our choices at times. However, I don't believe we have the capacity to choose other than what we will choose. The lack of the ability to do otherwise is what makes this understanding compatibilist. This is not due to compulsion but due to the fact that we will choose what we desire.

I'm specifically asking what are those limits and how are they derived?

That there IS free will is not really subject to much debate.

 

[Van]

Compatibilism is simply a ruse to nullify scripture. Choice means making a discision that results in one outcome or another, life or death. If the "compatibilistic choice" is a choice of one option only, then the meaning of choice is nullified.

Choice is redefined to include non-choice, and then the advocates simply claim non-choice is choice.

Exhaustive determinism is false doctrine, God allows us to make choices where the choice alters the outcome of our life, eternal life or eternal punishment.

Did God give us the Law which He knew none of us could follow perfectly to lead us to Christ? Yes. Did God give us Christ to set before us the choice of life or death and beg us to choose life? Yes. Does compatibilism rewrite this truth as God set before some life, because they had no other choice, and death before the others because they had no other choice, being unable to alter the outcome that had been exhaustively determined. Yes.

 

[Van]

The difference between LFW and limited free will is that God can deterministically control whatever we choose, or He can allow us to make choices that alter the outcome of our lives. This view is consistent with "we make plans, but God directs our steps." Take the case of the unbelieving Jews hardened by God in Romans 11. Before they were hardened they could have chosen Christ and obtained mercy because that choice was allowed by God. But, when He hardened them, their free will became even more limited, now to the point where they could not choose to trust in Christ. So if scripture says something is foreordained, predestined, whatever it is that has been applied to us, then we no longer have the ability to choose otherwise. So, according to my eternal security view, when God puts us spiritually in Christ, our free will to walk away from our faith and devotion to Christ is taken away. We can sure still backslide and quench the Spirit, but I believe in the heart of hearts of every born again believer, they love Jesus till the day they die because God keeps them by protecting their faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

The limits of our autonomous choices are set by God, and God does not leave those limits static for our lives. He can take away and He can add. Take away by hardening, and those limits can also be reduced by our practice of sin, so that what we had is taken away. To him who has, more will be given can be applied to receiving the Holy Spirit, where we are then able to understand the spiritual things discerned with the aid of our indwelt Spirit, and thus grow and alter our entry into heaven, because those that grow and earn rewards, enter abundantly.

 

[glfredrick]

Compatibilism is simply a ruse to nullify scripture. Choice means making a discision that results in one outcome or another, life or death. If the "compatibilistic choice" is a choice of one option only, then the meaning of choice is nullified.

Choice is redefined to include non-choice, and then the advocates simply claim non-choice is choice.

Exhaustive determinism is false doctrine, God allows us to make choices where the choice alters the outcome of our life, eternal life or eternal punishment.

Did God give us the Law which He knew none of us could follow perfectly to lead us to Christ? Yes. Did God give us Christ to set before us the choice of life or death and beg us to choose life? Yes. Does compatibilism rewrite this truth as God set before some life, because they had no other choice, and death before the others because they had no other choice, being unable to alter the outcome that had been exhaustively determined. Yes.

Your mere "saying so" does not make it so. You are making an intentional fallacy, arguing from a point of authority.

You will have to back up your large statements above with some substance so that the points can be debated.

 

[glfredrick]

The difference between LFW and limited free will is that God can deterministically control whatever we choose, or He can allow us to make choices that alter the outcome of our lives. This view is consistent with "we make plans, but God directs our steps." Take the case of the unbelieving Jews hardened by God in Romans 11. Before they were hardened they could have chosen Christ and obtained mercy because that choice was allowed by God. But, when He hardened them, their free will became even more limited, now to the point where they could not choose to trust in Christ. So if scripture says something is foreordained, predestined, whatever it is that has been applied to us, then we no longer have the ability to choose otherwise. So, according to my eternal security view, when God puts us spiritually in Christ, our free will to walk away from our faith and devotion to Christ is taken away. We can sure still backslide and quench the Spirit, but I believe in the heart of hearts of every born again believer, they love Jesus till the day they die because God keeps them by protecting their faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

The limits of our autonomous choices are set by God, and God does not leave those limits static for our lives. He can take away and He can add. Take away by hardening, and those limits can also be reduced by our practice of sin, so that what we had is taken away. To him who has, more will be given can be applied to receiving the Holy Spirit, where we are then able to understand the spiritual things discerned with the aid of our indwelt Spirit, and thus grow and alter our entry into heaven, because those that grow and earn rewards, enter abundantly.

Again WHAT ARE THE LIMITS and WHY?

 

[JesusFan]

it all depends upon the fact that that are 2 'free wills" for humans it would appear from the biblical viewpoint...

"Free will" for the unsaved person, one has not been rebirthed by the Holy Spirit Into becoming united with Christ, Baptized by Him into Body of Christ...

THAT person is said to be under bondgae to Sin, Flesh, and the Devil, that his nature is fallen, so his decision making ability is severly limited...

Still made in image of God, so can think and act, BUT
left to his own devices, will eventually keep on commiting the lyusts and desires of the Flesh, pride, lust, envy etc...

So someone without a new nature thru new birth cannot really do good on a constent basis, so can say they really have "limited" free will, as they will keep doing what seems "naturally" to them...

A Christian has new nature The Holy Spirit residing in himself, and thus is NOT under bondage to same things as unsaved, UNLESS he chooses to place himself under them again..
the believer can thus thru grace of God, by the power of the Cross and Spirit, decide to following the Lord and His ways...
So he has freedom in living and obeying God, something unsaved cannot do...

Seems that free will really relates more to ability to do what is the right thing and avoiding the wrong thing, and only the saved FULLY have that free will granted to them by being saved by grace of God in Christ jesus...

NNE other than God has absoute free will, but the saved def has great latitude in this than the unsaved!

 

[Van]

What are the limits to our exercising our will? God sets the limits and they vary over our lifetime according to His purpose.

I have given at least five specific limits and showed from scripture how God changes them.

In a court of law, I could object based on "asked and answered". The idea is not to allow a lawyer to harass or badger a witness.

No question has been asked concerning those explicitly discussed limit.

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan, I think your post 34 hits very close to the mark. Thanks for shining light on this topic.

We are limited in that we cannot do anything or think anything that will save us. Romans 9:16. But we can believe and if God credits our faith in the truth as righteousnes, He puts us in Christ where we are given more range, we can now do good works that earn rewards.

 

[glfredrick]

What are the limits to our exercising our will? God sets the limits and they vary over our lifetime according to His purpose.

I have given at least five specific limits and showed from scripture how God changes them.

In a court of law, I could object based on "asked and answered". The idea is not to allow a lawyer to harass or badger a witness.

No question has been asked concerning those explicitly discussed limit.

I know that God sets the limits... What are they and why?

 

[Van]

Since when is it not allowed to argue from authoity, scriptural authority. I supported the fact that compatibilism is false from scripture, we make choices where alternate outcomes are possible. Compatibilism rewrites the verse and says God sets before some the path of life and before others the path of death, and knows they have no choice in the matter.

 

[glfredrick]

Since when is it not allowed to argue from authoity, scriptural authority. I supported the fact that compatibilism is false from scripture, we make choices where alternate outcomes are possible. Compatibilism rewrites the verse and says God sets before some the path of life and before others the path of death, and knows they have no choice in the matter.

You have, so far, failed to argue FROM any authority except your own. When you start citing either Scripture (in context) or some other author (with citation so we can follow his or her argument) then you will stop your fallacy of citing from your own authority.

I believe that you have problems understanding what you are doing, and I am actually trying to help, but you are resistant to anyone's help. IF, for instance, you are going to argue from the authority of Scripture, THEN you post the Scripture and make your points based on what that particular pericope states (in context!).

But that is not what you are doing. You are assuming that Scripture states something and you are bringing forth your interpretation of that while at the same time forbidding anyone else to do likewise. Unless or until you are the world's foremost expert on any given topic you argue, citing those who are is beneficial to your cause and will give your arguments much more weight, plus allow for scholarly rebuttals instead of back-and-forth fighting along the lines of a pair of 4-year old children.

About compatibalism... You have brought nothing to the table that refutes compatiblism, in any sense, by what you've said above. Please, the doctrine is a tad more complex than that...

 

[Van]

I am thinking of a river in Egypt, oh yes, de Nile.

God sets before us a choice of life or death. Is that what Van says or what God says?

Read Deuteronomy 30:15-20, that is my authority for stating as fact Compatibilism is false doctrine.

On the other side of the street, I do not recall any scripture has been offered to support that we do not make choices, that we only make non-choices, choosing what has been foreordained by God or history.

So God is my authority and the foolishness of man is on the other side. Who knew?