The limits of free will...

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So God is my authority and the foolishness of man is on the other side. Who knew?

So Van does that mean that you believe in God's Sovereignty?

 

[glfredrick]

Okay, we're 40 posts into this thread and STILL no one rises to take on the OP question!

Surely some of you, who propose and fight hard for some form of free will, know what are the limits (if there are limits!) to that freedom of will.

Why is no one taking on that question? Perhaps in contemplating the idea of free will and limits or lack thereof, the free will people don't really have an answer.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Okay, we're 40 posts into this thread and STILL no one rises to take on the OP question!

Surely some of you, who propose and fight hard for some form of free will, know what are the limits (if there are limits!) to that freedom of will.

Why is no one taking on that question? Perhaps in contemplating the idea of free will and limits or lack thereof, the free will people don't really have an answer.

Guy, shouldnt a Free Will Baptist be able to handle this question much better than a Calvinist like you & I. I thought it was just exercising your will before you receive Grace, but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[JesusFan]

I am a 4 point Dispy "Bapticostal" Christian, and guess Im am having trouble trying to define what you are asking for in this OP...

Are you asking if unsaved have a real free will to decide to come to Christ and exercise their own personal faith and will to get saved, thus negating Election?

Or

If Chrsitians after receiving Christ now have real free will?

 

[glfredrick]

I am a 4 point Dispy "Bapticostal" Christian, and guess Im am having trouble trying to define what you are asking fofor in this OP...

Are you asking if Christians have a real free will to decide to come to Christ and exercise their own personal faith and will to get saved, thus negating Election?

I'm asking, very simply, what are the limits of the free will (just free will) that so many on this board argue that we have. Are there limits? If not, fine, but I'm looking for SOMEONE who constantly argues that we have free will (which is about half this board!) to step up to the plate and say if or if not there are limits on that will, and if there are limits, where they are with some justification from the Scriptures to back them up.

That is not a difficult question at all! And, as EWF alludes above, one would think that those holding so firmly to the doctrine would be able to easily answer the question I've posed.

 

[glfredrick]

Guy, shouldnt a Free Will Baptist be able to handle this question much better than a Calvinist like you & I. I thought it was just exercising your will before you receive Grace, but perhaps I'm wrong.

The silence is deafening... :sleeping_2:

 

[JesusFan]

I'm asking, very simply, what are the limits of the free will (just free will) that so many on this board argue that we have. Are there limits? If not, fine, but I'm looking for SOMEONE who constantly argues that we have free will (which is about half this board!) to step up to the plate and say if or if not there are limits on that will, and if there are limits, where they are with some justification from the Scriptures to back them up.

That is not a difficult question at all! And, as EWF alludes above, one would think that those holding so firmly to the doctrine would be able to easily answer the question I've posed.

Think understand what you are looking foe here...

Does the Bible even address thsi question in a direct fashion though?

Also
If I hold to 4 of 5 TULIP points, would I be considered a Calvinist as contrasted to a Free Will christian, even though gold to Dispy theology, or is it Calvin in Salavtion points alone, not per second coming/Covenant theology so would still be in Calvinist camp on this free will question?

 

[Skandelon]

I'm asking, very simply, what are the limits of the free will (just free will) that so many on this board argue that we have. Are there limits? If not, fine, but I'm looking for SOMEONE who constantly argues that we have free will (which is about half this board!) to step up to the plate and say if or if not there are limits on that will, and if there are limits, where they are with some justification from the Scriptures to back them up.

That is not a difficult question at all! And, as EWF alludes above, one would think that those holding so firmly to the doctrine would be able to easily answer the question I've posed.

Depends on what you mean by "limits." Sure, we are limited by our abilities. I can want to fly and try flapping my arms but it ain't happening. So, in that respect we have physical limitations. Also, I can't believe in something I haven't been told about (i.e. Rom 10), so I'm limited by my knowledge of the truth, which is why the truth can set a man free.

This is ONE of the reasons God's freedom is greater than ours. First, his has limitless ability, we don't. Second, he has limitless knowledge, we don't. But, as Genesis teaches we DO know both good and evil and in that sense we have an element of freedom for those moral choices we make.

Not sure if that answers your question, but hopefully clarifies my view.

 

[glfredrick]

Think understand what you are looking foe here...

Does the Bible even address thsi question in a direct fashion though?

That is the question...

Also
If I hold to 4 of 5 TULIP points, would I be considered a Calvinist as contrasted to a Free Will christian, even though gold to Dispy theology, or is it Calvin in Salavtion points alone, not per second coming/Covenant theology so would still be in Calvinist camp on this free will question?

Not really asking about all that. I'm mentioning the group who holds free will only becasue they so often bring up free will in conversations.

 

[glfredrick]

Depends on what you mean by "limits." Sure, we are limited by our abilities. I can want to fly and try flapping my arms but it ain't happening. So, in that respect we have physical limitations. Also, I can't believe in something I haven't been told about (i.e. Rom 10), so I'm limited by my knowledge of the truth, which is why the truth can set a man free.

This is ONE of the reasons God's freedom is greater than ours. First, his has limitless ability, we don't. Second, he has limitless knowledge, we don't. But, as Genesis teaches we DO know both good and evil and in that sense we have an element of freedom for those moral choices we make.

Not sure if that answers your question, but hopefully clarifies my view.

At least you have responded to the actual question.

Let's grant that our will is not sufficient to do what we cannot do. That seems to be an axiom that we can work with for now, but we may revisit that later.

What other limits? Or are there other limits? How far is the reach of free will? Will it extend into, say, eternity?

 

[Van]

Changing the subject

So Van does that mean that you believe in God's Sovereignty?

I demonstrated my view that compatibilism is unbiblical based on Deuteronomy 30:15=20, so rather than address that passage, the subject is changed to another false view, the Calvinist view of God's sovereignty. This belittling view of God declares God can only deterministically control everything, He lacks the power to create autonomous beings that make their own, not programed choices.

God rules and does as He pleases, and scripture tells us it pleased God to create people who could choose life or death,and that God sets both options before them.

 

[JesusFan]

At least you have responded to the actual question.

Let's grant that our will is not sufficient to do what we cannot do. That seems to be an axiom that we can work with for now, but we may revisit that later.

What other limits? Or are there other limits? How far is the reach of free will? Will it extend into, say, eternity?

Did Satan and Adam/Eve As originally created, in perfect harmony with God...

Did they have "true" free will?
BUT
After fall of Satan and his hordes and Adam/Eve
These 2 falls brought Sin into the perfect Creation, so no longer even possible to have "real" free will?

But after new heavens/New earth Eternal State
all Creation and all created beings thatwere part of the saved/unfallen hosts would be able to exercise full free will, as ALWAYS doing perfect will of God forever more...

is free will really not real, as our ultimate goal is to be with LORD forever in Heaven and his will is always what I want to be doing anyways?

 

[Skandelon]

At least you have responded to the actual question.

Let's grant that our will is not sufficient to do what we cannot do. That seems to be an axiom that we can work with for now, but we may revisit that later.

Ok.

What other limits? Or are there other limits? How far is the reach of free will? Will it extend into, say, eternity?

You may need to be more specific, or just come out and make your point. I'm not sure how else to answer your question than what I've already provided.

 

[Van]

What are the limits of Libertarian Free Will?

One of the questions concerning libertarian free will (if it should exist as suggested) is what are its limits, or are there limits to free will?

I would toss limited free will (meaning the ability to make choices that change the outcome of our lives) into the spectrum that starts at one end with exhaustive determinism- free will does not exist - then to Compatibilism and then to limited free will and at the other end of the spectrum of beliefs, libertarianism.

The difference between libertarian free will and limited free will, is the range of choices assumed to be allowed by God. In the limited free will view, only when God allows a person to exercise choice in that area, are they able to make autonomous choices.

This view is consistent with "we make plans, but God directs our steps" verse in Psalms. Take the case of the unbelieving Jews hardened by God in Romans 11. Before they were hardened they could have chosen Christ and obtained mercy because that choice was allowed by God. But, when He hardened them, their free will became even more limited, now to the point where they could not choose to trust in Christ. So if scripture says something is foreordained, predestined, whatever it is has been applied to us, then we no longer have the ability to choose otherwise. So, according to my eternal security view, when God puts us spiritually in Christ, our free will to walk away from our faith and devotion to Christ is taken away. We can sure still backslide and quench the Spirit, but I believe in the heart of hearts of every born again believer, they love Jesus till the day they die because God keeps them by protecting their faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

In summary the limits imposed by God on our capacity to make autonomous choices are according to His purpose. He created us to bring Him glory, and when we repent we bring Him glory, so God allows us or grants us the liberty to choose to trust in Christ because that fulfills His purpose of creation.

The problem with Compatibilism is God says He sets life and death before us and desires that we choose life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20.) If our past dictated our choice, we would have either life or death before us because the alternative would not be available. Thus the view turns the meaning of choice into non-choice. If a person cannot pick one or the other, but must pick one and cannot pick the other, it is a non-choice. Thus the view is completely unbiblical.

If we were computers made of meat, to borrow a phrase, why would it bring glory to God for us to "repent" when that choice to forsake ourselves and trust in God, was the result of the compulsion of the past. That would be akin to thinking if a pull string doll said, "I love you" that would ascribe some honor or glory to whoever pulled the string.

Did God give us the Law which He knew none of us could follow perfectly to lead us to Christ? Yes. Did God give us Christ to set before us the choice of life or death and beg us to choose life? Yes, as ambassadors of Christ we are to beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Does compatibilism rewrite this truth as God set before some life, because they had no other choice, and death before the others because they had no other choice, being unable to alter the outcome that had been exhaustively determined. Yes.

The limits of our autonomous choices are set by God, and God does not leave those limits static for our lives. He can take away and He can add. Take away by hardening, and those limits can also be reduced by our practice of sin, so that what we had is taken away. To him who has, more will be given can be applied to receiving the Holy Spirit, where we are then able to understand the spiritual things discerned with the aid of our indwelt Spirit, and thus grow and alter our entry into heaven, because those that grow and earn rewards, enter abundantly.

We are limited in that we cannot do anything or think anything that will save us. Romans 9:16. But we can believe and if God credits our faith in the truth as righteousness, He puts us in Christ where we are given more range; we can now do good works that earn rewards.

God rules and does as He pleases, and scripture tells us it pleased God to create people who could choose life or death, and that God sets both options before them.

 

[quantumfaith]

Okay, we're 40 posts into this thread and STILL no one rises to take on the OP question!

Surely some of you, who propose and fight hard for some form of free will, know what are the limits (if there are limits!) to that freedom of will.

Why is no one taking on that question? Perhaps in contemplating the idea of free will and limits or lack thereof, the free will people don't really have an answer.

Is that a problem, that one not understand either:

A. the question
B. pondering the concepts of limits to free will

I stated earlier the obvious knowable limits, are those limited to the constraints with the "system" (creation) however, all of "those limits" may not as of yet be understood, as mankind does not yet possess the "equation for everything". (not that we ever will)

Man cannot "create" rather only "re-create", fashion things from the known constituent atomic matter.

 

[Robert Snow]

You mean like how God gave the law which he knew none of us would be able to follow perfectly?

There is a difference. The law was given to show what God required. We can at least attempt to keep it. God also knew we would fail, so there were sacrifices to atone for our failures. Of course, this atonement was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

It is different for God to tell people to repent and trust Him when in truth, according to the Calvinist, it is limited to only a few. This sounds deceitful to me, something that goes against the nature of God.

 

[Winman]

I am not a student of the many theories on will, this is why I was reluctant to enter this conversation. I see things simply and depend on scripture.

I do agree that we cannot believe what we do not know (Rom 10:14). We also see that a child is limited by lack of knowledge to choose between good and evil (Isa 7:16).

But this is not the issue. I generally agree that a person will always follow and choose their greatest motivation. Therefore, the question really becomes does man have free motives? And I believe scripture shows they do.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

This verse tells me that men can create or invent their own motivations. Therefore, not all motives originate in God. God does not create the thought or motive in man to sin, men are fully able to invent this sinful thought or motive themselves. Thus, the scriptures teach that God never tempts any man (Jam 1:13).

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

This verse shows men corrupted themselves, their corruption was not decreed or caused by God.

And we see in Jer 32:35 that men committed sin that God never commanded, that did not come into his mind or heart, and that he did not cause.

So, if you are asking whether men can act independently of God, I believe the scriptures say he can.

 

[Rippon]

It is different for God to tell people to repent and trust Him when in truth, according to the Calvinist, it is limited to only a few. This sounds deceitful to me, something that goes against the nature of God.

Every single person deserves eternal condemnation. The Lord, however,has determined to have mercy on some and harden others. That's perfectly biblical and hence certainly not against the nature of God. He doesn't have mercy upon each and every person --past,present and future.

There is no contradiction to tell everyone to repent and believe in Christ and the fact that the Holy Spirit has His own picked out whom He spiritually arrests.

 

[convicted1]

Some here on the board are very open in their adoption of libertarian free will.

Others do not see eye-to-eye with libertarian free will as commonly expressed by the first group mentioned above.

One of the questions concerning libertarian free will (if it should exist as suggested) is what are its limits, or are there limits to free will?

What say the persons holding a free will perspective? Limits or not? Please justify your response in some fashion instead of making "I think so..." statements.

First off, anything with "limits", means there are restrictions, correct? So with restrictions, then you don't have something considered free, correct? So then the only viable definition of free will, is "free will". Y'all may not agree with free will, but y'all do have to agree with the definition.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I know that Jesus is talking to a church, I know this. But He singles this out by saying "if any man will hear My voice". He states that after they open the door, He will come in. He didn't say that when He knocked they would open the door, however. That is left up to us.

Jer. 22:18 Before thus saith the LORD concerning Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah; They shall not lament for him, saying, Ah my brother! or, Ah sister! they shall not lament for him, saying, Ah lord! or, Ah his glory!

19 He shall be buried with the burial of an ass, drawn and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem.

20 Go up to Lebanon, and cry; and lift up thy voice in Bashan, and cry from the passages: for all thy lovers are destroyed.

21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice.

Here it states the Lord spoke to Jehoiakim in his prosperity, but he would not hear. So it sounds to me like Jehoiakim chose not to listen to the Lord.

Pro. 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:[/U]

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Luke 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

So I think that these verses here do support a "free" free will, and not one with restrictions!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:???

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Robert Snow]

Every single person deserves eternal condemnation. The Lord, however,has determined to have mercy on some and harden others. That's perfectly biblical and hence certainly not against the nature of God. He doesn't have mercy upon each and every person --past,present and future.

There is no contradiction to tell everyone to repent and believe in Christ and the fact that the Holy Spirit has His own picked out whom He spiritually arrests.

Well brother, I do see a contradiction, thus I reject Calvinism. The reason you don't see the contradiction is you filter the bible through the eyes of Calvin.