The Line Between Saved And Unsaved

[saturneptune]

In several threads as of late, there has been quite a difference of opinion about the term "carnal Christian." We know that as saved, born again Christians, we are a new creature in Christ. Yet we know that the old sin nature remains while here on earth. So, and we all realize we cannot see anyone else's heart, how would one determine if a person is a new creature in Christ if they are sinning for a season? My own opinion is that yes we do sin, but as a child of God, and the Holy Spirit in us, we return to a walk with the Lord in short order. I believe that those in perpetual sin with no discernable difference before salvation were never saved. Yet, at the same time, I do not believe in a sinless existence after salvation.

I would appreciate all comments, and have an open mind to different aspects of this. Hopefully, we can keep out Calvinism and Ariminianism from the thread.

I think about passing a bar as a drunk staggers out. How do we know what his eternal state is? Also, how do we know the state of the person we only see on Sundays that appears to lead a Christ like life?

 

[convicted1]

Sinners sin, enjoy doing it, and keep on doing it.

Christains sin, hate it, seek God's face for mercy, and repent of it.

 

[saturneptune]

Sinners sin, enjoy doing it, and keep on doing it.

Christains sin, hate it, seek God's face for mercy, and repent of it.

That is pretty good. God sees the heart of everyone. Between our finite minds and casual observation, we are prone to make many misjudgements.

 

[convicted1]

Whenever we see someone/anyone continually out doing things contrary to His Word, and no repentence follows after them, what are we seeing? Again, we are not to judge anyone, that belongs to Him, and Him alone. All we can do is witness their fruits. A 'nanner tree won't have pineapples dangling from it. Just sayin'..................

 

[Herald]

2 Cor. 5:17 tells us that we are a new creation. Rom. 6 tells us we are dead to sin. 1 John tells us we are in the light, not darkness. All this to say we no longer have a sin nature. What fellowship has light with darkness? As Christians we do not believe in dualism. So, why do we sin as Christians? Our minds have been trained by sin. This is why Paul tells us to renew our minds (Rom. 12). We war against sin because we are enticed by its lusts (James 1) and its fleeting pleasures.

 

[Yeshua1]

2 Cor. 5:17 tells us that we are a new creation. Rom. 6 tells us we are dead to sin. 1 John tells us we are in the light, not darkness. All this to say we no longer have a sin nature. What fellowship has light with darkness? As Christians we do not believe in dualism. So, why do we sin as Christians? Our minds have been trained by sin. This is why Paul tells us to renew our minds (Rom. 12). We war against sin because we are enticed by its lusts (James 1) and its fleeting pleasures.

Christians still retain old sin natures, as paul attested to after salvation in Romans, but the victory comes by condifering ourselves as having been :killed" in the Cross, and walk in the Spirit, abiding in Christ!

 

[jbh28]

Christians still retain old sin natures, as paul attested to after salvation in Romans, but the victory comes by condifering ourselves as having been :killed" in the Cross, and walk in the Spirit, abiding in Christ!

Really? Where did Paul say that the old nature doesn't pass away?

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture tells us:

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:4-8
4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[convicted1]

Really? Where did Paul say that the old nature doesn't pass away?

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



If any man sins, we have an advocate with the Father.....1 John 2:1

 

[jbh28]

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



If any man sins, we have an advocate with the Father.....1 John 2:1

I agree totally that we still sin after we are saved. Very good passage that says that. I was asking about the old nature.

 

[convicted1]

I agree totally that we still sin after we are saved. Very good passage that says that. I was asking about the old nature.

The inward man is saved and always wants to please Him. Our flesh is still in the same condemned state, and only wants to please itself. When our flesh rises up, the Spirit battles it, and brings it under subjection. That is why we have the warfare Aposlte Paul wrote about. The old nature of the inner man is gone at the point of salvation, but the flesh is still the same. Does that clear up what I was trying to convey?

BTW, how is the missus and the "bundle of joy"? I pray that you and they are doing well.

 

[OldRegular]

Really? Where did Paul say that the old nature doesn't pass away?

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

The following Scripture might be helpful.

Romans 6:6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ephesians 4:22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

It seems that as long as this body lives we are prone to sin. I believe that is one reason the body must die and then in God's own time the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:16-22
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In the above Scripture Paul tells us the significance of the resurrection. In the following Scripture he discusses what occurs at death and what will happen at the resurrection in the Last Day!

1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The body that goes into the grave is not the same as the body that comes out of the grave. The body of Jesus Christ after His resurrection was not the same as the body that went into the grave. There are numerous cases in Scripture where the dead body is brought back to life but that body died again. A resurrected body is a spiritual body and can die no more, as the above Scripture tells us.

But Scripture says it better than I can!

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Note:

I take liberty in posting Scripture in my discussion. There are times when I believe Scripture alone is sufficient to present my point or to refute the argument of others. I also enjoy posting Scripture when it makes a point. How many of you when reading a book or even a study Bible always check the referenced Scripture? Rarely I suspect but often you will discover the reference is not relevant. I try to avoid that error.

I also like to highlight Scripture and my choice is dark red, as close to the color of blood as I can get it!​

 

[saturneptune]

I hope this does not result in massive fainting spells, but I agree with Icon on the subject of the carnal Christian. I take his meaning for carnal Christian to be an unchanged life style with no repentance, or very little change.

I believe this was brought up in another thread, but the difference seems to be in the definition. No one believes a Christian does not sin after salvation. No one believes that a saved person shows no sign of a changed life through Jesus Christ. That is a lot of common ground.

Of course, the final factor is the heart, which only God and the person involved know. Our observations are more or less flawed, depending on how much we notice. If a person has the Holy Spirit in him or her, then any sin will ring a bell, send up a red flag. The person will repent and get back on course for the Lord, and in short order.

 

[salzer mtn]

Really? Where did Paul say that the old nature doesn't pass away?

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but i am carnal, sold under sin. For that which i do i allow not: for what i would, that do i not; but what i hate, that do i. If then i do that which i would not, i consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more i that do it, but sin that dwelledth in me. For i know that in me ( that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good i find not. For the good i would i do not: but the evil which i would not, that i do. Now if i do that i would not, it is no more i that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when i would do good, evil is always present with me. For i delight in the law of God after the inward man: But i see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that i am! who shall deliever me from the body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind i myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Herald]

Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but i am carnal, sold under sin. For that which i do i allow not: for what i would, that do i not; but what i hate, that do i. If then i do that which i would not, i consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more i that do it, but sin that dwelledth in me. For i know that in me ( that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good i find not. For the good i would i do not: but the evil which i would not, that i do. Now if i do that i would not, it is no more i that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when i would do good, evil is always present with me. For i delight in the law of God after the inward man: But i see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that i am! who shall deliever me from the body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind i myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Carnal...body...mind; Paul is referring to the struggle the physical man has with sin. Contrast that to the "inward man" that delights in the Law of God. The inward man is the immaterial or spiritual part of man. This part of man is what has been remade according to 2 Cor. 5:17. Remember this very important point. The scripture asks a question, "What fellowship does light have with darkness?" Fellowship is an intimate relationship. God will not co-habit with sin or evil. If a Christian still had a sin nature then God could not dwell with that person through the Holy Spirit. Instead of a sinful-righteous nature combination, the Christian has a righteous nature only. It is the mind and body that struggle against sin, and will continue to do so until set free of this body of death.

 

[convicted1]

I hope this does not result in massive fainting spells, but I agree with Icon on the subject of the carnal Christian. I take his meaning for carnal Christian to be an unchanged life style with no repentance, or very little change.

I believe this was brought up in another thread, but the difference seems to be in the definition. No one believes a Christian does not sin after salvation. No one believes that a saved person shows no sign of a changed life through Jesus Christ. That is a lot of common ground.

Of course, the final factor is the heart, which only God and the person involved know. Our observations are more or less flawed, depending on how much we notice. If a person has the Holy Spirit in him or her, then any sin will ring a bell, send up a red flag. The person will repent and get back on course for the Lord, and in short order.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:


That eighth grade diploma is hanging proudly over your headboard this morning, Brother SN.....LOL......J/K.....I meant now harm......I love you Brother.......

 

[convicted1]

Carnal...body...mind; Paul is referring to the struggle the physical man has with sin. Contrast that to the "inward man" that delights in the Law of God. The inward man is the immaterial or spiritual part of man. This part of man is what has been remade according to 2 Cor. 5:17. Remember this very important point. The scripture asks a question, "What fellowship does light have with darkness?" Fellowship is an intimate relationship. God will not co-habit with sin or evil. If a Christian still had a sin nature then God could not dwell with that person through the Holy Spirit. Instead of a sinful-righteous nature combination, the Christian has a righteous nature only. It is the mind and body that struggle against sin, and will continue to do so until set free of this body of death.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[salzer mtn]

Carnal...body...mind; Paul is referring to the struggle the physical man has with sin. Contrast that to the "inward man" that delights in the Law of God. The inward man is the immaterial or spiritual part of man. This part of man is what has been remade according to 2 Cor. 5:17. Remember this very important point. The scripture asks a question, "What fellowship does light have with darkness?" Fellowship is an intimate relationship. God will not co-habit with sin or evil. If a Christian still had a sin nature then God could not dwell with that person through the Holy Spirit. Instead of a sinful-righteous nature combination, the Christian has a righteous nature only. It is the mind and body that struggle against sin, and will continue to do so until set free of this body of death.

Does not the body which is flesh, that struggles against sin have a nature ? And that nature is to do evil. Gal 5:16-17 This i say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[12strings]

I would wonder how those who reject the possibility of a carnal christian interpret 1 Cor. 3...Paul seems to use two categories of descriptors to describe, (it seems to me) the same people:

good: in christ, temple of God, holy, Christ's, saved as through fire.
Bad: fleshly, jealousy & strife, works burned up, behaving only in a human way.

 

[Yeshua1]

Really? Where did Paul say that the old nature doesn't pass away?

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

We will still have the 'sin principle" dewelling within us, still have that of us that wants to disobey God, for we can chose to waqlk afetr the flesh, and be weak and ineffective in living for thre Lord, or walking in the Spirit!