The Local Church - Baptist theology's weakest link?

[Matt Black]

I suppose what I'm asking is that, given the obvious pluriformity of eccelsiology in the NT, are we as Baptists justified in maintaining just one model?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[pastorjeff]

I don't think just one model is right. Let me say though I do believe strongly in the autonomy of the local church. I know the local church is not the only one spoken of in scripture, but it is the majority of what is spoken of. I am certain the scripture presents both Pastor/Shepheard model and plurality if elders. There is no reason why this can not be so. Tricky? Yes. But I see both present in scripture.

 

[Matt Black]

Agreed. But should we really be going for an EU-style "one size fits all" approach or should we, just like the churches in the NT period, adapt our ecclesiology (see, I can spell it really!) to fit the circumstances in which we find ourselves?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am not sure that the pluriformity of ecclesiology is found in the NT. It seems to me that it is found in tradition. The NT describes a pastor led, congregtionally governed body. There aren't a lot of nuances to it.

To me, the debate should be about what areas of church matters involve congregational approval.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I am not sure that the pluriformity of ecclesiology is found in the NT. It seems to me that it is found in tradition. The NT describes a pastor led, congregtionally governed body.

Er...I'm not sure it does. Ephesians is the only Pauline letter to use the term 'pastor'; I Cor 12 has a different list of 'ministries' (apostles, prophets, teachers, administrators, inter alia) ; Acts refers repeatedly to 'elders' being appointed by Paul (not the congregations); the Pastorals despite their name do not use that term but refer to elders, episkopoi (superintendents, overseers, bishops) and deacons (the latter term may or may not have evolved from its original 'waiter-helper' meaning of Acts 6 by then).

Each church, therefore, had a different set-up, sometimes even in terms of time (contrast the 'five-fold ministry' early Ephesian church of Ephesians with the later Ephesian church of I and II Tim (bishop and elders) and again the even later Ephesian church of Revelation ("To the angelos (singular) of the church at Ephesus..."))

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[pastorjeff]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I am not sure that the pluriformity of ecclesiology is found in the NT. It seems to me that it is found in tradition. The NT describes a pastor led, congregtionally governed body. There aren't a lot of nuances to it.

To me, the debate should be about what areas of church matters involve congregational approval.

This is the one area I can't agree with. Other than applying a definition we think the readers may have known, there is no internal support for a congregational form of church gov.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The NT describes a pastor led, congregtionally governed body. There aren't a lot of nuances to it.

I'd have to be shown this in scripture. In every scripture I see multiple elders governed making decisions based on patient unanimity.

Lacy

 

[pastorjeff]

Where are these scriptures?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Where are these scriptures?

Acts 15:6-22
I Peter 5:1-5hebres 13:7, 17-24

Repost:

The primary role in shepherding the New Testament churches was exercised, not by a solitary Pastor, but by a plurality of men, described as "elders" or overseers

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. (Acts 14:23)

From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders [plural] of the church[singular] .... He said unto them...Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:17-28)

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (Phil. 1:1)

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5)

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (James 5:14)

The quotation above from Acts 20 makes it clear that the "elders" and "overseers" are the same persons, and that it is they who are given responsibility to shepherd, or pastor the church of God.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; (1 Peter 5:1-2)

Here is the ONE time the word "pastor" is in the New Testament.

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Again it is plural.

The terms "Bishop, Elder, Pastor, Overseer, and Shepherd" generally refer to the same office.

There is not one instance of a New Testament assembly being presided over by a single pastor. (other than 1 Pet 5:4 ) Timothy and Titus were never refered to as "pastor". They were functioning in the role of apostle (church planters). When they accomplished their goal (Setting up elders to rule the church - see Titus 1:5 above), they moved on to other business just like Paul.


Note the following texts (where either elder or bishop is used):

Acts 11:30--elders at the church of Antioch
Acts 14:23--Paul and Barnabas appoint "elders in every church"
Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4--elders at the church in Jerusalem
Acts 20:17, 28--elders/bishops at the church of Ephesus (v. 17--"elders of the church")
Acts 21:18--elders at the church in Jerusalem
Phil 1:1--the church at Philippi has bishops and deacons
1 Tim 5:17--elders at the church of Ephesus
Titus 1:5--Titus is to appoint elders in every town
Jas 5:14--"the elders of the church"
1 Pet 5:1-2--"the elders among you"8

In every one of these texts the plain implication is that each church had several elders.

 

[pastorjeff]

I get that, and I'm not arguing against it. My question was where in scripture does it say or even imply they acted on the basis of all their rule together after coming to a voted type decision? Do I make since? You used the phrase "patient unanimity" where is this indicated. I'm not arguing against plurality. I'm saying it's not exclusive from a head leader.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I think several things are being confused. First, Matt talks about a five fold ministry in Ephesians. But there are only four things there, and two of them (apostle and prophet) were revelatory and no longer extant in the church. Evangelist was a church planter and they still exist. Pastor-teacher was the fourth and they certainly still exist. Secondly, the Bible never talks about Paul or anyone else appointing elders. The word used there means to set up a structure by which elders were appointed. Third, there is never a distinction made between pastor, overseers, and elders. Both in Acts 20 and 1 Peter 1, there are all referred to as the same office. The two church offices of the NT are pastor/elder/overseer and deacon. Fourth, the “elders in every city” is in no way a legitimate demand for plurality within a church. Everyone here likely lives in a city with more than one elder. That does not mean your church has more than one elder. In a city, there were various house churches that were collectively called the “church at __________.” Of course, there would be multiple elders, but not in each house church. Don’t confuse the city with the individual church. The NT does not establish any hierarchy outside the church. There is no level of beauracracy to which the church answers. It is autonomous.

With respect to church government, the pastors are given rule in the church but Acts 13 clearly sets the pattern of the church body governing. The church is what sent out the missionaries. That sets the tone for congregational government. The picture of the NT is that the congregation approves the goals and plans of the pastor. Their basic responsibility is to approve his leadership or dismiss him. A wise pastor takes into careful account the congregation so that he does not lead them to quickly, but does not allow them to become stagnant.

 

[pastorjeff]

Pastor larry Said...
A wise pastor takes into careful account the congregation so that he does not lead them to quickly, but does not allow them to become stagnant.


I agree. But Acts 13 doesn't say the congregation led, It sais the leadership (certain prophets and teachers) layed there hands on them and sent them out. I don't see a congregation, unless you mean elsewhere and I'm mistaken.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Hey Pastor Larry,

Which verses in Acts 13 are you referring to? As far as I can see it was "certain prophets and teachers" which layed hands and "sent them away". I don't even see a congregation present. (Not that there wasn't, I just don't see it.)

I don't think all prophets and teachers are called to be elders, however elders are to be "apt to teach" and to be able to declare the "prophesy" of God. (With an admittedly limited definition of "prophesy") These are gifts which would be consistent with a group of elders. (It's less of a stretch than angels being pastors.)


As to your argument that there were several pastors in each city, were these pastors independent? And were their assemblies autonomous? If so then how were the sick supposed to "call for the elders of the church"? James 5:14 Also this reasoning may seem to answer certain passages, but it completely falls apart when viewing others, such as Acts 14:23 ("So when they had appointed elders in every church...)

Lacy

 

[wopik]

God bless all

 

[Warren]

What's bad is the one-man show model of conventional baptist churches. The early church met in small, intimate, PARTICIPATORY groups, where "everyone of you" brought a teaching, a psalm, etc.. That can't happen in todays conventional Baptist church, or the mega-meeting in general. In fact, if one wants to teach or preach he's probably going to have to take it on the road, and then be called a rebel on the way out the door. Today's Baptrist church's are something like a microsm of the Catholic church which they detest. Instead of THEE pope, you have a pastor-pope over "the local church", with subordinates (cardinals, etc), or deacons, under him. The New Testament model is not that of a triangle, with the pastor-pope at the top and "over" everyone else! Rather, the New Testament model is an inverted triangle, with those in leadership positions SERVING the flock. The local church in New Testament times was served by multiple elders, not lorded over by a pastor-pope and deacon board. I'm not promoting prebyterianism, just a more scriptural approach.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Well said Warren.

 

[gb93433]

Remember that the letters Paul sent, he sent them to be read by several chruches in the area of ... Each church had one pastor. But there were several pastor at the chruch say in the Ephesus area. Those churches were house churches of probably about 20 people each.

In Acts 20 Paul meets the elders (pastors) from the churches in Ephesus in Miletus.

 

[Craigbythesea]

ALL of the churches, however, answered to James. Even the Apostles answered to James.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
ALL of the churches, however, answered to James. Even the Apostles answered to James.

Interesting point.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Warren:
What's bad is the one-man show model of conventional baptist churches. The early church met in small, intimate, PARTICIPATORY groups, where "everyone of you" brought a teaching, a psalm, etc..

That was true of the early Jerusalem church and the Corinthian church but not necessarily of the others; I'm afraid you're falling into the same trap as other posters of seeing one model in one or two places in the NT and assuming that applied throughout and therefore should be applied today

Yours in Christ

Matt