How do you know? Are we talking local church now or are we talking catechisms?
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The local church
- Thread starter Herald
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How do you know? Are we talking local church now or are we talking catechisms?
Here's the context in which the OP statement was made:
Talking about his local situation, not in general.
Talking about his local situation, not in general.
Thank you.....:love2::thumbsup:
"appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Titus 1:5) was he involving himself in local politics or the administration of the church?
What does Paul consider to be "Every Town" ?
What does Paul consider to be "Every Town" ?
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All of the above. The false paradigm of universal church goes back to the first century--among those who were apostasizing. It was gradually made dogma by the apostates who took support from the State during the reign of St.(?)Constantine, the Great one and his mamma, St.(?) Helena. Some say she deeded the land to the Vatican--with some strings attached of course. See: Pontifex Maximus. Interesting: who may have the strings today. Every time the holy papa sneezes, it makes world wide news.
The original question: Is there a local church? My answer: yes, with qualifications. If the word local is to make a distinction from universal, I would disagree in as much as there is no church universal, visible or invisible. Therefore: the word local is not necessary to the definition.
Most of our religious dogma is derived from our paradigms derived from our catechisms, written and unwritten. "...teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you..." Jesus to His first Church. Jesus also said to His disciples, "Why do you call me Lord, and do not what I say?"
A study of ecclesia in the Book of Acts reveals no universal church, nor LLCs.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
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Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I think all EWF is saying is that there are no local churches that he agrees with doctrinally around him.
There are probably Bible believing churches and preaching churches around with whom he disagrees and he feels that he cannot go there. But he has to answer to God and his conscience about what he does or does not do.
There are probably Bible believing churches and preaching churches around with whom he disagrees and he feels that he cannot go there. But he has to answer to God and his conscience about what he does or does not do.
It is so weard that when I attempt a longer more detailed post, explaining myself completely, that the cable chooses to crap out & the entire message gets erased.
Here is the points
1. There is no Baptist & Salvation By Grace Church in the community.
2. Subsequently if your one in your belief, you either go to something doctrinally different or you dont go at all.
3. There is a very big void in any good churches (bible believing ) in this area.
4. The community is becoming non believers.
5. The results are SIN in the form of Crime, Divorce etc
Here is the points
1. There is no Baptist & Salvation By Grace Church in the community.
2. Subsequently if your one in your belief, you either go to something doctrinally different or you dont go at all.
3. There is a very big void in any good churches (bible believing ) in this area.
4. The community is becoming non believers.
5. The results are SIN in the form of Crime, Divorce etc
Me & God are tight so Im OK with that.....he already has my answer.
If your saying catechism is a document written to memorize stock answers to theological & doctrinal questions, then I dont agree with it. I was raised with an RC one & If I followed that to the letter, Id still be a Catholic. Id also never need to study the bible.
And so you DO NOT FEEL Doctrine separates us?
I subscribe to the doctrine of a local church.
what I do not subscribe to is using the definite article 'THE' as in a statement such as 'THE church must be an instrument of change yadayadayada....'
WHICH church ?
THAT church ?
His church ?
Your church ?
There is no one 'THE' church, there are only church-ES which, as EWF points out, adheres to different doctrines, different theologies, different soteriologies, different eschatologies, different other -ologies.
Heck, sometimes even those who belong to the same denominations might split up because one congregation believes a tie should be worn a certain way, or hemlines should be a certain length.
One church up a road might believe in the existence of hell and another around the corner does not.
And like EWF said, 299 members of one congregation might believe in the second coming, and one has doubts about it ever happening.
what I do not subscribe to is using the definite article 'THE' as in a statement such as 'THE church must be an instrument of change yadayadayada....'
WHICH church ?
THAT church ?
His church ?
Your church ?
There is no one 'THE' church, there are only church-ES which, as EWF points out, adheres to different doctrines, different theologies, different soteriologies, different eschatologies, different other -ologies.
Heck, sometimes even those who belong to the same denominations might split up because one congregation believes a tie should be worn a certain way, or hemlines should be a certain length.
One church up a road might believe in the existence of hell and another around the corner does not.
And like EWF said, 299 members of one congregation might believe in the second coming, and one has doubts about it ever happening.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Separates who? You and I? Yes, you've told me specifically in answer to my question, tht you see my doctrine as bad as the RCC. That ended any possibility of friendship or fellowship.
Separates churches? Of course, it does. You have to go to a church that you agree with. From your attitude and previous statements, I wouldn't want you in the church I pastor and you would not want to be a part of FBC, Osprey.
So there it is....doctrine seperates & local churches are defined by the doctrine and physical location of the church where you live.
I would express further to you that I personally am an old school Baptist & not a Reformed Baptist so there is zero presence of a local assembly in my hood. Therefore if I conduct services in my own town with a few like minded folk's, I would consider that right and proper. In truth, I feel we are a remenant church in a sea of modern Christian churches .... and that's OK to us since we feel the need to practice our brand of faith even more keenly
It is in Gods hands to mold us and teach us and to provide for us....and we believe he will be faithful.
I rest my case. :godisgood:
I would express further to you that I personally am an old school Baptist & not a Reformed Baptist so there is zero presence of a local assembly in my hood. Therefore if I conduct services in my own town with a few like minded folk's, I would consider that right and proper. In truth, I feel we are a remenant church in a sea of modern Christian churches .... and that's OK to us since we feel the need to practice our brand of faith even more keenly
It is in Gods hands to mold us and teach us and to provide for us....and we believe he will be faithful.
I rest my case. :godisgood:
Paul went on three different missionary journeys, from town to town, and in his time established over 100 local churches. That is the pattern a missionary, or mission organization, ought to follow in establishing churches.
However, that being said, America is different than Israel and Asia was at the time of Paul in some respects.
Paul traveled by foot, and sometimes by slow-moving ships.
We travel by fast moving cars, trains, buses, and planes.
If I remember correctly you live in the vicinity of New Jersey, correct?
My wife was born in the SE corner of Pennsylvania, raised in Delaware, worked in New Jersey for three years, and went to college in Florida. She knows the are fairly well. If you are mobile (able to drive a car), cities like New York and Philadelphia are within reach of New Jersey (not more than a few hours away), if you are willing to make that sacrifice.
In NT times most people had to walk at least a day to go to their church.
Think of the OT. How long did it take Hanna to walk to the Temple for each and every festival that was held at the Temple.
1 Samuel 1:3 And this man went up out of his city yearly to worship and to sacrifice unto the LORD of hosts in Shiloh. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, the priests of the LORD, were there.
They traveled by foot to go to Shiloh where the tabernacle. You might say they didn't like the "church" that was there. The leadership was wicked. They lived in gross immorality. Eventually the Lord judged Eli, and he was killed for not restraining his sons.
--But they went anyway, by foot, a distance of seven to 12 miles. That would have been a good day's journey, if they could have made it in one day.
--In NT times things hadn't changed much. Travel was still slow. Distances for some was still far. NT churches were not always nearby.
We don't have any excuses in the modern society we live in. If we don't go to the church that we agree with or that is even close to our doctrinal stance we are in disobedience to the Lord. It doesn't take a day and a half to travel to church. It may take more than an hour for some.
"But the distance is worth the difference," for many.
In a nearby church that I have attended some farmers travel 70 miles to come to church, and one couple came from 180 miles. They stated reasons similar to yours. There were local churches much closer but it was the Calvinism vs. Arminian that turned them off. In order to avoid the one they chose to drive that much further out of the way.
Personally I wouldn't let that get in my way. I am solid in my beliefs and have attended a Calvinistic church. I can still grow in the Word of God. We have had Calvinists attend our church and still grow in the Word of God.
Beware EWF. If you ever find the perfect church don't enter it. It won't be perfect any longer.
EWF,
I am going to speak plainly to this issue as you have made it public.I believe I am going to state what several others have hinted at....but I intend to be more direct and plain spoken....as open rebuke is better than secret love.
Doctrine is given to bring about unity in the NT church. So we are not talking about liberal churches, with sodomite ministers, woman pastors,etc...they are out as their doctrine disqualifies them. We are speaking of having a doctrinal base for fellowship.
If you are only saved for 3yrs....you might not even know ...what kind of baptist you are..... frankly your posts are all over the place....you want to say you believe in DoG, but you are not a Calvinist, You believe DoG....but not a RB??? Why is that?
What does a RB believe that you do not?
Many Church planters are reluctant to consider a new church plant knowing Trinity in montville has many Dog persons traveling a distance to get there.
Transportation you mentioned as an issue, and yet There are probably members who could offer you transportation until that situation improved.
There was a sovereign grace church near you,,,a new covenant theology church...so they are not going to hold to the Lord's day....you know that ahead of time....
and yet if they believe everything else....you could attend, and personally maintain the Lord's day in your household without being contentious. they would not stop you from doing that.....you give account of yourself to God.
There have been times where I attended fundamental baptist churches that were premill dispensational churches, and even would mistakenly do the Altar call.
I did not sit there with a scowl on my face, and look to undermine the work.I would consider the verses offered,and pray and worship God in the midst of this group.
After service i would pray and look to great visitors, then the church members and see if I could help someone with a biblical question by offering scripture.....and yet...being careful not to work to undermine the Pastor that was there.
This i believe was what was being spoken of earlier about there are no prophets now.
You are a believer for three years,and it does not sound as if you have spent much time in any one church.
Some people spend much time finding reasons not to join with saints , because they in reality do not want to get involved in the time and effort to commit to a local assembly,and deal with saved sinners who have their own baggage that comes with them. Others avoid being under pastoral oversight, not wanting to be questioned or corrected by any pastor. I do not know your specific situation.You have described it several times,and for sure...it might be a challenge.
That being said.....If i were out of work...I might not be so picky as to jobs.I would take one and get involved,until a better situation presented itself.
If there are churches that are struggling....maybe even weak...but not apostate...maybe you could work in and offer help..prayer ,and whatever else.
You come across sometimes like a loose cannon. God did not save you to walk around with a spiritual chip on your shoulder , and look for each spot and blemish, and then declare icabod over each church building and the people in it.
If I had to worship in a Presbyterian church...i would not march in and declare that they are wrong on infant sprinkling. I know before I go in they believe that.the elders would question me as to what I believe and offer to give me their POV. Should I be shocked at this??? this should be expected....not to....indoctrinate me so to speak...but they take a stand as they do.They would just want to make sure I would not undermine their church.
Dave Dykstra's church was up that way...he is in Texas now...but there must be some of the people still there....if you and your like minded friends attended there it would strengthen that which remained ,and then the Lord might provide stronger Eldership if such a group was in need of that.
This is spoken of as the Elijah syndrome;
Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
You might be looking past God's provision by setting too high a standard and missing what it is you need to deal with.
You have presented your case openly for weeks in this forum....It is time for a cross-examination of this supposed case.... if you are not up to it.....avert your eyes right now and read no further.
I am going to speak plainly to this issue as you have made it public.I believe I am going to state what several others have hinted at....but I intend to be more direct and plain spoken....as open rebuke is better than secret love.
Doctrine is given to bring about unity in the NT church. So we are not talking about liberal churches, with sodomite ministers, woman pastors,etc...they are out as their doctrine disqualifies them. We are speaking of having a doctrinal base for fellowship.
This is an obscure reference to more of a title than actual denomination.In other words...how many people have you ever heard in conversation even speak about this term old school baptist? it is obscure and puts a distance between you and others.
If you are only saved for 3yrs....you might not even know ...what kind of baptist you are..... frankly your posts are all over the place....you want to say you believe in DoG, but you are not a Calvinist, You believe DoG....but not a RB??? Why is that?
What does a RB believe that you do not?
Many Church planters are reluctant to consider a new church plant knowing Trinity in montville has many Dog persons traveling a distance to get there.
Transportation you mentioned as an issue, and yet There are probably members who could offer you transportation until that situation improved.
There was a sovereign grace church near you,,,a new covenant theology church...so they are not going to hold to the Lord's day....you know that ahead of time....
and yet if they believe everything else....you could attend, and personally maintain the Lord's day in your household without being contentious. they would not stop you from doing that.....you give account of yourself to God.
There have been times where I attended fundamental baptist churches that were premill dispensational churches, and even would mistakenly do the Altar call.
I did not sit there with a scowl on my face, and look to undermine the work.I would consider the verses offered,and pray and worship God in the midst of this group.
After service i would pray and look to great visitors, then the church members and see if I could help someone with a biblical question by offering scripture.....and yet...being careful not to work to undermine the Pastor that was there.
This i believe was what was being spoken of earlier about there are no prophets now.
You are a believer for three years,and it does not sound as if you have spent much time in any one church.
Some people spend much time finding reasons not to join with saints , because they in reality do not want to get involved in the time and effort to commit to a local assembly,and deal with saved sinners who have their own baggage that comes with them. Others avoid being under pastoral oversight, not wanting to be questioned or corrected by any pastor. I do not know your specific situation.You have described it several times,and for sure...it might be a challenge.
That being said.....If i were out of work...I might not be so picky as to jobs.I would take one and get involved,until a better situation presented itself.
If there are churches that are struggling....maybe even weak...but not apostate...maybe you could work in and offer help..prayer ,and whatever else.
You come across sometimes like a loose cannon. God did not save you to walk around with a spiritual chip on your shoulder , and look for each spot and blemish, and then declare icabod over each church building and the people in it.
If I had to worship in a Presbyterian church...i would not march in and declare that they are wrong on infant sprinkling. I know before I go in they believe that.the elders would question me as to what I believe and offer to give me their POV. Should I be shocked at this??? this should be expected....not to....indoctrinate me so to speak...but they take a stand as they do.They would just want to make sure I would not undermine their church.
But by what authority would you do this? If you had like minded folks it might be proper to have a bible study /prayer meeting mid-week and see if it grew to move in a direction of some kind of church plant.
Dave Dykstra's church was up that way...he is in Texas now...but there must be some of the people still there....if you and your like minded friends attended there it would strengthen that which remained ,and then the Lord might provide stronger Eldership if such a group was in need of that.
This is spoken of as the Elijah syndrome;
Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
You might be looking past God's provision by setting too high a standard and missing what it is you need to deal with.
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Have you reviewed Tom Bradlys earlier commentary?
I probably have never stated my beliefs clearly. So here goes. I believe in election by grace I believe in the doctrine of original sin and man’s inability to rescue himself from his fallen state by his own freewill ability. I believe that sinners are called converted, regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit and all are so regenerated and born again by the spirit of God shall never fall away. I believe sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
As Ive stated clearly before, Im not interested in traveling a distance....I dont consider that a "Local Church" & its far from my community. My interest is to develop a church that is (1) Local (2) NT & Biblical & Baptist
That has never been offered & Pastor Bart Karlson I believe indicated that nobody lives out in my vicinity. He did offer to have my sign in to their webcasts however.
I have attended there & I dont like the guy.....he is a very deceptive individual. Plus when I was struggling with doctrine & told him that (at the time I was not a 5 Point Calvinist) he told me that he would not accept me & I needed to find another church. No thanks!
You would be wrong about that.
That may be some people, but not me. Why do you think I agonize over this.
Oh so now we have moved from church to work status. Really, that is none of your business.
This is one of those topics you appear to be more emphatic about. I believe every word you post on this subject but I would like to know why you believe emphasizing the local church is so important.
EWF, I owe you an apology. I saw where you wrote "there is no local church" and did not read it context. Please forgive me for being quick to jump the gun and not take the time to understand. That is a terrible error on my part.
I really do have to question that.
I sat through a service recently which was chock full of a doctrine of salvation that exhalted humanity......& with all due respect, I cant be a part of that nor can I have my family being indoctrinated into it.
For a while last year, I attended several Lutheran Services & it was a Orthodox group. From my studies of Luther, I assumed wrongly that the church would uphold his principals of sola gratia.....boy was I wrong. They uphold the Universal Atonement set down by Martin Luthers Protege, Philip Melanchthon.
When I called the Pastor (A guy BTW I really like & admire) he didnt want me to leave & was hoping Id join the church. I told him my biblical views were in opposition to his & explained them. He wanted me to sit down with him & review scripture which I guess I could have done......you proof text, then I proof text.....yada yada. What I said then is, Pastor you have children....so would you expose them to my particular theology? He said no, absolutely no. So then I said, and thats how I feel....I cant expose my family to your doctrine & theology least they become ingratiated to it. He understood & wished me well.
Im sorry, but my wife & I are serious about our beliefs & we wish to remain pure to our interpretation of scripture. That sir would preclude us from any Non Cal, Arminian or Lutheran church......much the same as if we were attending a Roman Catholic Service.....we dont mix.
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No sweat brother.