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"The Lord told me . . ."

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John of Japan

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Hmm, so what you are saying is that my examples are testimonies. Testimonies, in fact, being an account of God touching lives directly. However, they do not advance the cause of sound doctrine, or better define the Gospel, since we have the Word.

I can agree with this.
Now you've got it! :)

That said, this seems to set up two tracks of revelation: doctrinal and testimonial. Testimonial revelation can be mind numbingly powerful of course, but can never dip into the realm of doctrine, of what the Gospel is, as that is the purview of scripture and the apostles.
You are on the right track here, but I certainly would not call a testimony revelation. As you know, the Greek word is apokolupsis, an unveiling. It occurs 18 times in the NT, but never in connection with a testimony.

Although, logically this means NT prophecy, as seen through Agabus' prediction of famine or his warning to Paul about going to Jerusalem, is not necessarily barred for the modern day. God just chooses not to work that way currently, except in extraordinary circumstances.

I say that because the prediction of famine or warning to Paul are not doctrinal. They are in fact very personal and directed to another individual, as with Betsie ten Boom to Corrie, or predict something of importance to the local churches, as with the martyrs such as Perpetua. In both cases the revelation is very limited compared to doctrine, but carries the the weight of being the very Will (I daresay Word) of God in a particular circumstance.
Prophecy may occur as personal guidance (Agabus saying don't go down to Jerusalem) or as group guidance (famine coming) or as revelation of universal truth. What we certainly do not have in this dispensation is revelation of eternal truth through individuals.
Just food for thought. John of Japan I wonder what you think of this analysis? I am merely trying to take things apart logically.
Except for calling testimony "revelation," I think you are on target.
 

agedman

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Regardless, Charismatics are in for a rough time if they claim they have what I refer to as testimonial revelation. It's not like Samuel Morris heard wrong or Corrie got a possibly false prediction from Betsie. Its not like Perpetua could dream wrong. No, if God communicates, he communicates. Also, apart from fortune telling, as Charismatics often do, this is stuff that hits you in the gut with how important or timely it may be for your life.

Thus, the second some "prophet" gets it wrong once, we know there is a problem. Given the NAR organizations cannot claim 100% accuracy with their prophets, we know to relegate them to the realm of false prophets unless they can show a Charismatic prophet is accurate in all predictions. If such a case ever happened, we know to treat them as a NT prophet like Abagus, but to give them no authority whatsoever in doctrine or Gospel.

Wow, that turned out to be complicated. I do believe I have systematized the idea of two types of revelation: "personal" and "general" in modern context.

"testimonial" hearings (using your term) are more often reflected (imo) in the music written.

There are "scores" of lyrics and music in which the folks seemed to be especially impressed of the Lord.

One of the most popular songs of it's day and translated into over 50 languages prior to the death of the writer was Stuart Hamblen's "It is no Secret."

Here is a link to the writing that gives a general overview. The Story Behind 'It Is No Secret': What God Can Do
 

John of Japan

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"testimonial" hearings (using your term) are more often reflected (imo) in the music written.

There are "scores" of lyrics and music in which the folks seemed to be especially impressed of the Lord.

One of the most popular songs of it's day and translated into over 50 languages prior to the death of the writer was Stuart Hamblen's "It is no Secret."

Here is a link to the writing that gives a general overview. The Story Behind 'It Is No Secret': What God Can Do
This takes us into the realm of providence, wherein God works "all things together for good." So it is not revelation but would fit in the areas of testimony and personal guidance.
 

Yeshua1

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Now you've got it! :)

You are on the right track here, but I certainly would not call a testimony revelation. As you know, the Greek word is apokolupsis, an unveiling. It occurs 18 times in the NT, but never in connection with a testimony.

Prophecy may occur as personal guidance (Agabus saying don't go down to Jerusalem) or as group guidance (famine coming) or as revelation of universal truth. What we certainly do not have in this dispensation is revelation of eternal truth through individuals.
Except for calling testimony "revelation," I think you are on target.
The Apostles spoke and wrote inspired theology and doctrines to us, but not evrything they said met that qualification, only the words recorded down into the scriptures didi!
 

Yeshua1

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This takes us into the realm of providence, wherein God works "all things together for good." So it is not revelation but would fit in the areas of testimony and personal guidance.
I see God working with sermons from pastors , as many will come up to a pastor and see that he spoke right to their need, even though nothing said by him actually spoke to their concern directly!
 

agedman

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In the past, I wondered what would draw people of various churches and even faiths and beliefs together to worship the beast?

In my youth, I could not perceive how a Baptist would ever have worship fellowship with a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, Shinto..., or even the nearer such as Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Episcopalian, RCC, or even those who differ slightly such as Presbyterian, Methodist, Church of Christ...

Yet, now I not only recognize the connection, but I also see the dissolving of doctrinal differences and issues over the validity of the Scriptures set aside in the effort to show unity to some fleshly purpose.

What is the single "experience" that each of those folks may have in which they can be linked? Charismatic tongues.

That which steps out beyond the Scriptures, which is not a part of the work of the Holy Spirit, and which is self generated by emotionalism.

So, the modern worship in the modern church rushes to emotionalism accepting all manner of worldly excess to heighten the auditory and visual senses, and even bringing in the odors and smoke to pretend the Holy Spirit is present.

Such is foolish, and such is powerless.

Yet, apparently the SBC is in agreement with the "trends."

What schooling did pastors and preachers come from that they would consider the work of the Holy Spirit is found in froth and foam, is part of pretense and pride, has part in appealing to the flesh?

Is there an SBC school that has not chased after that which is ungodly and claims it is Godly when it comes to this matter of Charismatic tongues and athletics?
 

1689Dave

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In the past, I wondered what would draw people of various churches and even faiths and beliefs together to worship the beast?

In my youth, I could not perceive how a Baptist would ever have worship fellowship with a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, Shinto..., or even the nearer such as Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Episcopalian, RCC, or even those who differ slightly such as Presbyterian, Methodist, Church of Christ...

Yet, now I not only recognize the connection, but I also see the dissolving of doctrinal differences and issues over the validity of the Scriptures set aside in the effort to show unity to some fleshly purpose.

What is the single "experience" that each of those folks may have in which they can be linked? Charismatic tongues.

That which steps out beyond the Scriptures, which is not a part of the work of the Holy Spirit, and which is self generated by emotionalism.

So, the modern worship in the modern church rushes to emotionalism accepting all manner of worldly excess to heighten the auditory and visual senses, and even bringing in the odors and smoke to pretend the Holy Spirit is present.

Such is foolish, and such is powerless.

Yet, apparently the SBC is in agreement with the "trends."

What schooling did pastors and preachers come from that they would consider the work of the Holy Spirit is found in froth and foam, is part of pretense and pride, has part in appealing to the flesh?

Is there an SBC school that has not chased after that which is ungodly and claims it is Godly when it comes to this matter of Charismatic tongues and athletics?
I think this makes sense. But I see the Beast and his mark as a symbol of Antichrist. It depicts totalitarianism where the leader demands obedience to his laws over obedience to God's laws. An example would be the Christian businesses that could not buy or sell because they would not take part in homosexual marriages. On a grander scale, Nero, the Papacy, Hitler etc., etc.
 

Yeshua1

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I think this makes sense. But I see the Beast and his mark as a symbol of Antichrist. It depicts totalitarianism where the leader demands obedience to his laws over obedience to God's laws. An example would be the Christian businesses that could not buy or sell because they would not take part in homosexual marriages. On a grander scale, Nero, the Papacy, Hitler etc., etc.
Once the Christians have been removed, then would be relative simple matter to have religions come together around the person the the last Antichrist!
 

1689Dave

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Once the Christians have been removed, then would be relative simple matter to have religions come together around the person the the last Antichrist!
The problem is, no verses directly support a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture. The only rapture clearly mentioned in scripture happens on the last day after the resurrection of the saved, before the resurrection of the damned.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
 
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Yeshua1

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The problem is, no verses directly support a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture. The only rapture clearly mentioned in scripture happens on the last day after the resurrection of the saved, before the resurrection of the damned.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
The saved will be judged at the Bhema Seat of Jesus, while the lost get their at the GWT, NOT same event!
 

1689Dave

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Saved in one judgement, lost another 1000 years apart!
Read again, it is in the same hour. “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)
 

Yeshua1

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Read again, it is in the same hour. “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)
2 different judgements, and Revelation shows the saved resurrected 1000 years before all of the lost!
 

1689Dave

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2 different judgements, and Revelation shows the saved resurrected 1000 years before all of the lost!
You misunderstand this passage. Note this: John who wrote Revelation says both resurrections happen in the same hour.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)
 

Yeshua1

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You misunderstand this passage. Note this: John who wrote Revelation says both resurrections happen in the same hour.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)
There is more to the resurrection sequence than just that passage, have to tie them all together!
 

Yeshua1

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How do you harmonize John's 1 hour for both resurrections with 1000 years for both resurrections?
How would you harmonize that theOT stated that when Messiah returns, he steps upon the MT of Ol;ives, massive earthquake, and then sets up his reign here on earth?
 

1689Dave

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How would you harmonize that theOT stated that when Messiah returns, he steps upon the MT of Ol;ives, massive earthquake, and then sets up his reign here on earth?

The day of victory (vv. 1–5, 12–15)

The chapter opens with Zechariah portraying Jerusalem being surrounded by enemies. It is his way of depicting one of the primary features of the gospel age, namely, the people of God being hated and opposed! Jerusalem is his way of representing the saints of the gospel age, and the details offered here (‘houses rifled’, ‘women ravished’, ‘captivity’—v. 2) are particularly graphic ways of depicting the calamities that would befall the people of God during the whole of that era. Although serious and heart-wrenching, however, the calamities would never be sufficient to deprive God of his people. The remnant would never be ‘cut off’ (v. 2).

The opposers of God’s people will find themselves opposed! The Lord Jesus, who ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:9–12), will return from heaven to that same mount—an event of such overwhelming significance that the prophet could only convey it in terms of the mount itself splitting in two (v. 4)! The Lord’s coming will put an end to the enemies of the saints because ‘the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem’ (v. 12). In horrific terms the prophet describes what awaits God’s foes—flesh, eyes and tongues will all ‘dissolve’ (v. 12). And these foes will be seized with ‘a great panic from the LORD’ (v. 13).

Ellsworth, R. (2010). Opening Up Zechariah (pp. 132–133). Leominster: Day One Publications.
 

Yeshua1

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The day of victory (vv. 1–5, 12–15)

The chapter opens with Zechariah portraying Jerusalem being surrounded by enemies. It is his way of depicting one of the primary features of the gospel age, namely, the people of God being hated and opposed! Jerusalem is his way of representing the saints of the gospel age, and the details offered here (‘houses rifled’, ‘women ravished’, ‘captivity’—v. 2) are particularly graphic ways of depicting the calamities that would befall the people of God during the whole of that era. Although serious and heart-wrenching, however, the calamities would never be sufficient to deprive God of his people. The remnant would never be ‘cut off’ (v. 2).

The opposers of God’s people will find themselves opposed! The Lord Jesus, who ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:9–12), will return from heaven to that same mount—an event of such overwhelming significance that the prophet could only convey it in terms of the mount itself splitting in two (v. 4)! The Lord’s coming will put an end to the enemies of the saints because ‘the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem’ (v. 12). In horrific terms the prophet describes what awaits God’s foes—flesh, eyes and tongues will all ‘dissolve’ (v. 12). And these foes will be seized with ‘a great panic from the LORD’ (v. 13).

Ellsworth, R. (2010). Opening Up Zechariah (pp. 132–133). Leominster: Day One Publications.
Jesus returning is for Israel and for the gentile nations, as those jews still alive are reborn by Him when they see Him, and the Gentile nations enter under His rule and dominion then!
 
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