The Lord's church a denominational mess?

[Darron Steele]

>The Gospel in Scripture is NOT the plan of salvation.

Why does there have to be a "plan of salvation?"

You saying it is merely a human interpretation of the text?

I said no such thing. You have an inventive imagination.

My words that followed were as so:

The Gospel is the story of what Christ did for us. Read 1 Corinthians 15. Where the KJV has "gospel" the ICB translates the Greek as "Good News" and rightly so. The Gospel is the Good News about Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is not about us. You will not see any indication in Scripture that the Gospel is about things we do. The Gospel = the Good News about what Jesus Christ has done for us.

We can hold different plans of salvation and still be spreading the same Gospel.

The problem with the Galatians is that someone was preaching a different Gospel: that Jesus Christ did not change anything. THAT is a different Gospel if there ever was any.

To my knowledge, all church groups are sharing the same Good News about what Jesus Christ did for us.

As anyone can see, what I meant was explained.

Now, as you seem to do little on this board anymore except take off-topic shots at the written Word of God and discourage believing God's Book, I have no desire to discuss anything with you.

 

[Darron Steele]

...
There is a true church.

It is all of the christians on earth

The different groups are ultimetly irrelavent.

There is ONE church on earth. All of the christians(truly born again people) on earth.

AMEN!

That is the case whether we like it or not.

The choice we have is whether or not we are going to respond to that truth biblically.

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alive in Christ
...
There is a true church.

It is all of the christians on earth

The different groups are ultimetly irrelavent.

There is ONE church on earth. All of the christians(truly born again people) on earth.

AMEN!

That is the case whether we like it or not.

The choice we have is whether or not we are going to respond to that truth biblically.

Its just to bad that you cannot fellowship and worship with all those who you claim to belong to Christ's one true church because of all the division in doctrine. That is why they were all divided in the first place. Like I said before take all the various types of Baptists and all the various types of Lutherans and so on and so on put them together and see how long they can be brother before they divide again and again. Have you ever done a true comparison of denomiational differences? Even on salvation issues these groups cannot stand on one another. I would like to see a free will Baptist group joined with a primative Baptist group come together for worship, some bible studies on salvation, and a little fellowship and see what happens!

There is no truth biblically that allows all these different doctrines and ways of salvation. Christ called us to be unified with each other the way that Christ is unified with His Father. One body working together, not one body working apart like some freak show, Ephesians does not allow denominational seperation, Christ is the head and His people are the body unified not divided.

 

[Salty]

Its just to bad that you cannot fellowship and worship with all those who you claim to belong to Christ's one true church because of all the division in doctrine. ...

So you would have no problem with have a Jehovah Witness or Mormon lead a Bible Study? They claim to be Christian. ....

 

[JSM17]

So you would have no problem with have a Jehovah Witness or Mormon lead a Bible Study? They claim to be Christian. ....

You missed the point.

No I could not have fellowship with a JW or a M.

I should have no fellowship with anyone who teaches a doctrine not found in scripture.

The point was division among denominations who claim to all be brethren and a member of the one true church yet cannot fellowship with one another because they cannot agree on doctrine, that is why there are so many different divisions of groups which once started out as one group.

 

[Salty]

You missed the point.

No I could not have fellowship with a JW or a M.

I should have no fellowship with anyone who teaches a doctrine not found in scripture.

The point was division among denominations who claim to all be brethren and a member of the one true church yet cannot fellowship with one another because they cannot agree on doctrine, that is why there are so many different divisions of groups which once started out as one group.

NO, NO, NO, I did not miss the point. The JW & LDS claim to be the true Christians.

As far as division amount denominations, many do teach doctrine that is not found in scripture.
Some do not believe in eternal security, others believe baptism completes salvation, some believe in female pastors, others believe that evelotions was the "creation" some believe homosexu@lity is acceptable to the Lord, ect, ect, ect.


Now, I am able to work with others on certain activities even if they disagree with some doctrines. For example, let me go to the extreme, and say I am working for a pro-life group. I would be able to work with a pro-life homosexu@l . Of course, I would use the opportunity to show him the Biblical view of his lifestyle.
I would have no problem attending a community National day of prayer - even if they disagree on some doctrines. But when it comes to our local church, then I will not compromise on membership.

 

[Tom Butler]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler Unity among believers is possible only in a local congregation--like the one I serve, which has sweet harmony.

. Sounds good, I guess, but I have yet to be a member of any church, or involved with any church, where each and every person was in complete agreement on every single point, yet that alone does not always preclude "unity among believers" and "sweet harmony" in these local congregations of believers.

Of course, you are right. There is no perfect church.

Quote from Tom:

It is true that there are some secondary issues which should not prevent cooperation and fellowship. But there are some issues that we just can't get past.

Ed says:

well remember a quote from a past teacher of mine when I was in Bible college, which has stuck with me for more than 40 years, although I do not think the thought was original with him, by any means. Quote:
In major things we should have unity; in minor things - liberty; in all things - charity.
I agree.

And so do I. But unity is not achieved by pretending that the differences either don't exist or are not important enough to be tests of fellowship. There is a reason that like-minded believers assemble with each other. It is that they are like-minded.

 

[Tom Butler]

There is no truth biblically that allows all these different doctrines and ways of salvation. Christ called us to be unified with each other the way that Christ is unified with His Father. One body working together, not one body working apart like some freak show, Ephesians does not allow denominational seperation, Christ is the head and His people are the body unified not divided.

So, is it possible for all believers to unify into one body?

If so, how is that to be achieved?

The answer, of course, is that it can't this side of heaven. One reason is that as long as we all appeal to scripture to support our differing beliefs, nobody will back off.

The other reason is that no such body exists today. There is no such animal as the "universal church." The scripture knows of only local congregations. It may also use the word church in a generic or institutional sense, in the same way we speak of the family.

Local congregations may join together collective ventures, such as missions, education, etc.

That is where believers find unity--in the local congregation, in associations of churches, small or large. Imperfect, of course, but unity nonetheless.

JSM17 suggests that Free Will Baptists and Primitive Baptists get together. Maybe the Church of Christ folks can get together with the Disciples of Christ. They used to have a lot in common. Of course it won't happen because it's artificial and contrived.

Unity is not singing cum-bah-yah around the campfire.

 

[Darrenss1]

So, is it possible for all believers to unify into one body?

If so, how is that to be achieved?

The answer, of course, is that it can't this side of heaven. One reason is that as long as we all appeal to scripture to support our differing beliefs, nobody will back off.

All churches in the New Testament were assemblies at different locations, to imagine one big world wide church called the "Planet Earth Christian Church" would be simply a disaster!! How would they ever agree to a governing body or a faith/mission statement?? Such a church would have an immediate reformation and protestants the very first week!! I can think of some christians now that would lead the split!!

Darren

 

[JSM17]

1 Corinthians 1:10

Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Doctrinal differences divide.

As for the church not being perfect, it is humans who are not perfect. Christ is perfect and the church belongs to Him, so is His church imperfect?

Denominationalism is just division.

As for the Disciples of Christ, their doctrine is far from biblical, I do not consider them born again Christians, so I could have no fellowship or worship with them.

My point about Baptist denominations was simple, they do not agree and if they did they would not be divided into hundreds of different councils or associations.

It is not about working or doing something with any particular group, it is about being united in the body of Christ on issues of salvation and worship, which cannot be done or else therre would not have been a need for a split.

The body is a whole not a part of a part, would you cut of your arm and consider it still part of the body? These are not just groups part of the body, they have split and divided over doctrinal issues, should I list some of the reasons why these groups split?

The body is one, it is supposed to strive for unity, is the body of Christ divided into hundreds if not thousands of divided groups? I think not!

The church is a divine institution not a human, man-made church. Christ is not divided, so how can His people be divided yet still His people if they belong to Him. I am not advocating everyone getting together and fellowshiping just because they claim Christ, I am advocating that denominations through off the man made names and doctrines and claim the bible as authoritive.

Can anyone show me a passages that advocates all these so called "Christian denominations"?

 

[Darrenss1]

Can anyone show me a passages that advocates all these so called "Christian denominations"?

Yeah but they all believe they are following the bible in doctrine and practice, that part, for the sake of a practical purpose is biblical. Everyone has a different idea of who is right and wrong and scripture to show for it!!

Darren

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

As for the Disciples of Christ, their doctrine is far from biblical, I do not consider them born again Christians, so I could have no fellowship or worship with them.

So wait, now I'm confused. You bash the Baptists (on a Baptist board, no less) for denominationalism, but then you state that you in your denomination would not fellowship with those in the Disciples of Christ??? [BTW, I do know those in that denomination, and they definitely consider themselves to be Christians.]

So then, what is the answer?? Is your only answer then to join your non-denomination, denomination??

 

[JSM17]

Yeah but they all believe they are following the bible in doctrine and practice, that part, for the sake of a practical purpose is biblical. Everyone has a different idea of who is right and wrong and scripture to show for it!!

They may believe it but if they are not following the teachings of God then how can they be christians, just because they believe or say they are? This is not a slam on them it is what it is. Either they are following and teaching biblical doctrine or they are not.

So wait, now I'm confused. You bash the Baptists (on a Baptist board, no less) for denominationalism, but then you state that you in your denomination would not fellowship with those in the Disciples of Christ??? [BTW, I do know those in that denomination, and they definitely consider themselves to be Christians.]

So then, what is the answer?? Is your only answer then to join your non-denomination, denomination??

Its no more bashing then what baptist say about the churches of Christ. Again just because one considers themsleves christians does not make them christians. God's word tells us who the christians are not people.

The answer is not to join any denomination, we are added to the church when we receive the word of God and are baptized for the forgiveness of sins. We then should identify with a congregation which teaches the bible.

Acts2:41
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

They heard the word spoken by Peter they believed, repented, and were baptized for the forgiveness of sins, and were added to the church.

Those who teach another gospel will be accursed, man cannot be saved by man's doctrine, it must God's teaching.

Matt.7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Faith repentance, confession, and baptism are God's commands on order for that person to be saved, those who teach otherwise do not agree with scripture and do not agree with God. Rememmber those who God adds to His church received the word and were baptized and then they were added to the number.

 

[Tom Butler]

1 Corinthians 1:10

Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Doctrinal differences divide.

As for the church not being perfect, it is humans who are not perfect. Christ is perfect and the church belongs to Him, so is His church imperfect?

Denominationalism is just division.

I note that Paul was writing to a local church in Corinth, which had a few problems. I doubt if Paul would write them and tell them that such squabbling was normal, and have at it. He was espousing an ideal, a goal to strive for. A worthy goal for all of us. Most congregations I know of don't divide over doctrine; they divide over practice.

Yes, Christ is perfect, but his churches are not because they are made up of imperfect people. To borrow a line from somebody, if you find the perfect church, don't join it because it won't be perfect any more.

My point about Baptist denominations was simple, they do not agree and if they did they would not be divided into hundreds of different councils or associations.

It is not about working or doing something with any particular group, it is about being united in the body of Christ on issues of salvation and worship, which cannot be done or else therre would not have been a need for a split.

I am united with the body of Christ. It is the congregation I serve. We are united on salvation and worship. The body of which I am a member voluntarily associates with other like-minded bodies of Christ.

The body is one, it is supposed to strive for unity, is the body of Christ divided into hundreds if not thousands of divided groups? I think not!

The church is a divine institution not a human, man-made church. Christ is not divided, so how can His people be divided yet still His people if they belong to Him.

If you insist on defining the body of Christ as all believers everywhere, you have an impossible standard to meet. Yes, Christ is not divided, but his people can be because they are imperfect.

If you equate belonging to Christ as always being agreed with each other, we're all dead in the water.

I have asked this question before: How does one achieve such unity? What has to happen for all believers to be one?

I am not advocating everyone getting together and fellowshiping just because they claim Christ, I am advocating that denominations through off the man made names and doctrines and claim the bible as authoritive.

I claim the Bible as authoritative and inerrant. i claim the doctrines I hold as biblical, not man-made. You claim the same, I assume. Great. Glad you've decided to be a Baptist.

Of course, I'm kidding.

I'd be happy to throw off the name Baptist. We didn't think it up in the first place. It was given to us by our enemies.

I didn't join a denomination. I joined a local church. A church that is not divided.

 

[sag38]

Funny, in the town where I used to pastor there was a large Church of Christ Church. But, they split. The older folks thought the church was becoming to liberal (they didn't like the pastor using a projector, etc.), left and started another Church of Christ Church. If the system were so perfect and united this should have never happened. Just because one claims to be of the one church does not make it so. Reality says other wise.

 

[Ed Edwards]

JSM17: // I would like to see justification in scripture for denominations. //

God does NOT speak against 'denominations'. I have in my pocket several 'denominations' of coinage and paper money: $20, $10, $5, $1, 25¢, & 10¢. They are all American Money (I have an one Euro piece also
The Bible does not speak of Velcro. Nevertheless, I use Velcro every day but Sunday to hold my shoes on my feet.. (On Sunday I wear Cowboy boots).

 

[Tom Butler]

You know something. I think Baptists are right on just about everything. And where other denominations (such as the Church of Christ) disagree, they are wrong.

But all bound for hell?

If you sprinkle instead of immerse, I think you're wrong? But bound for hell?

If you believe one can lose his salvation, I think you're wrong. But automatically bound for hell?

If you are not a Baptist, I think you're wrong. But bound for hell?

Follow this reasoning:
If your denomination has some issues (say, for instance, a conservative resurgence), that makes you divided. That's bad. Denominations bad. Can't be true churches. Its members are lost. Christ's church is not divided. We are not divided. We are not a denomination (bad, remember?). We are the only Christians, because we are the true church. Outside the true church, guess what? Sorry about that?

Sound familiar?

 

[Salty]

...those who teach otherwise do not agree with scripture and do not agree with God. ....

JSM

Would you mind providing us a doctrine statement of your belief? I'm just curious as to what doctrines we might disagree with.

Salty

PS, BTW, there is no Baptist Denomination!

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

JSM

Would you mind providing us a doctrine statement of your belief? I'm just curious as to what doctrines we might disagree with.

Salty

PS, BTW, there is no Baptist Denomination!

See www.church-of-christ.org for their (non-denominational)denominational web site.

Actually, wikipedia (though far from perfect I know), has a pretty fair assessment. This is taken from the wiki site --

Doctrine of Salvation (Soteriology)
Churches of Christ are strongly anti-Calvinist in their understanding of salvation, and generally present conversion as "obedience to the proclaimed facts of the gospel rather than as the result of an emotional, Spirit-initiated conversion."[13]:215
Churches of Christ hold the view that humans of accountable age are lost because of their sins.[9]:124 These lost souls can be redeemed because Jesus Christ, the Son of God, offered Himself as the atoning sacrifice.[9]:124 Children too young to understand right from wrong, and make a conscious choice between the two, are believed to be innocent of sin.[7]:107[9]:124 The age when this occurs is generally believed to be around 13.[7]:107
Churches of Christ generally teach that the process of salvation involves the following steps:[1]

1. One must be properly taught, and hear (Rm 10:17, Matt. 7:24),
2. One must believe or have faith (Heb 11:6, Mk 16:15-16),
3. One must repent, which means turning from one's former lifestyle and choosing God's ways (Acts 2:38, 17:30, Luke 13:3),
4. One must confess belief that Jesus is the son of God (Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:36-37),
5. One must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; I Pet 3:20-21; Romans 6:3-5; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16),
6. One must remain faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10).

 

[DHK]

See www.church-of-christ.org for their (non-denominational)denominational web site.

Actually, wikipedia (though far from perfect I know), has a pretty fair assessment. This is taken from the wiki site --

Doctrine of Salvation (Soteriology)
Churches of Christ are strongly anti-Calvinist in their understanding of salvation, and generally present conversion as "obedience to the proclaimed facts of the gospel rather than as the result of an emotional, Spirit-initiated conversion."[13]:215
Churches of Christ hold the view that humans of accountable age are lost because of their sins.[9]:124 These lost souls can be redeemed because Jesus Christ, the Son of God, offered Himself as the atoning sacrifice.[9]:124 Children too young to understand right from wrong, and make a conscious choice between the two, are believed to be innocent of sin.[7]:107[9]:124 The age when this occurs is generally believed to be around 13.[7]:107
Churches of Christ generally teach that the process of salvation involves the following steps:[1]

1. One must be properly taught, and hear (Rm 10:17, Matt. 7:24),
2. One must believe or have faith (Heb 11:6, Mk 16:15-16),
3. One must repent, which means turning from one's former lifestyle and choosing God's ways (Acts 2:38, 17:30, Luke 13:3),
4. One must confess belief that Jesus is the son of God (Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:36-37),
5. One must be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; I Pet 3:20-21; Romans 6:3-5; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16),
6. One must remain faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10).

That is a good and accurate summary. It is too bad they missed the gospel, the only means by which one is saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: