Well, what more can be said to that but .. Amen!
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The Lord's Day
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
Well, what more can be said to that but .. Amen!
Well, what more can be said to that but .. Amen!
or we could say this;sag38 The scripture that Allan quoted is adequate to refute any argument put forth by those who would have yield to a yoke of slavery.
9there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,
1And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,
What day was that? obeying God is not a yoke of slavery, it is our reasonable service.
What day was that? obeying God is not a yoke of slavery, it is our reasonable service.
It is men who put the yoke of slavery on believers through unScriptural rules & traditions. What commands has He given concerning the first day of the week? Without a clear command & clarification from the Word, "Lord's day" is just a figure of speech.
or we could say this;
What day was that? obeying God is not a yoke of slavery, it is our reasonable service.
Not when the Gentile believers are not bound to Jewish traditions and Laws.
Or was the counsel at Jerusalem incorrect, and Paul as well?
Not when the Gentile believers are not bound to Jewish traditions and Laws.
Or was the counsel at Jerusalem incorrect, and Paul as well?
Hello Allan,
The ten commandments were in effect before put on stone on MT.Sinai.
The ten commandments are in our heart now.
The unsaved of the world are breaking them everyday,Jew, or Gentile.
Acts 15.....as we both know was addressing the OT sign of the Covenant,and yes even Jewish tradition.
Jesus is not the end of the law
Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes
We are no longer under the Israelite theocracy,yet we are not lawless.I know you do not believe we are lawless Allan.
I am not advocating we keep mosaic legislation although most all of it is just an expansion of the ten commandments.God has made a change ,yes.
But that does not mean we are not under law to God.
The law is holy just and good. The curse of the law was not the law itself. It was the penalty of breaking the law that was the curse.
Jesus as we rejoice in kept the whole law. We also keep those portions of the law that were not completed and done away with the cross....the col.2 verse is speaking of the mosaic laws.....feast days, new moons , etc
it is not saying let no man judge you in reference to the ten Commandments.
Michael,ACTS17-
It is men who put the yoke of slavery on believers through unScriptural rules & traditions. What commands has He given concerning the first day of the week? Without a clear command & clarification from the Word, "Lord's day" is just a figure of speech.
This is a good caution against legalism,but does not address the discussion clearly.
Michael to help me understand your position could you offer comment on this;
5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
also
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Was the psalmist looking to put a YOKE of bondage on Himself?
1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
Michael.....if the one day in seven is given for man,are you opposed toGod setting one day in seven aside for works of mercy, or necessity? Why does this seems burdensome to us? What else in the world is more of a delight?
Do we look forward to the Lord's Day....without having to do the labour commanded in the other 6 days? Is fellowship ,prayer and bible study, the word preached,communion, a yoke of bondage to be endured?
Or can we call the sabbath a delight as Jesus and the apostles did?
If you look to add to it and make it burdensome,then I could agree with your concern.
Let's say there never was any sabbath teaching,or Lord's day......
Would you think it was a good idea if a man thought of it.
God rested after creation, We have an eternal rest in Jesus[active however].
But Hebrews says there remains a rest to the people of God.
Iconoclast, if you feel so led to follow the Sabbath law then you are free to do so. But, I will not be bound to slavery nor will I be found guilty of making it a requirement for everyone else. If it's right for you then you better do it. But, I really believe that you are in gross error concerning the Scripture by saddling yourself with this requirement and demanding it of others as well. I forgive you for trying to force a yolk of slavery around my neck.
According to the apostle Paul, the Sabbath was one of those thing FORESHADOWING what was to come.. and had come - in Christ.Hello Allan,
The ten commandments were in effect before put on stone on MT.Sinai.
The ten commandments are in our heart now.
The unsaved of the world are breaking them everyday,Jew, or Gentile.
Acts 15.....as we both know was addressing the OT sign of the Covenant,and yes even Jewish tradition.
Jesus is not the end of the law
Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes
No.. they were not 'just' addressing the OT sign of the covenant but also regarding the Law. This is noted as they are distinguished as two separate things. And you do not find the Counsel of Jerusalem Nor the by their admission, the Holy Spirit, desired to put more on them than was 'necessary' and the Sabbath was not included.
We are no longer under the Israelite theocracy,yet we are not lawless.I know you do not believe we are lawless Allan.
I am not advocating we keep mosaic legislation although most all of it is just an expansion of the ten commandments.God has made a change ,yes.
But that does not mean we are not under law to God.
The law is holy just and good. The curse of the law was not the law itself. It was the penalty of breaking the law that was the curse.
Jesus as we rejoice in kept the whole law. We also keep those portions of the law that were not completed and done away with the cross....the col.2 verse is speaking of the mosaic laws.....feast days, new moons , etc
it is not saying let no man judge you in reference to the ten Commandments.
The sabbath was the rest promised to be, and we have entered into that rest in Christ.
Again, with respect to saved Gentiles, what was commands the Counsel of Jerusalem stated they needed to abide by.. was the sabbath keeping included.. nope, I didn't think so.
Does Paul state that the sabbath was a foreshadowing of things to come (Jesus Christ).. yes He did. What other things of the Law that foreshadowed Christ or His work are we commanded to commanded to continue?
The biblical fact is, Jesus is the fulfillment of the biblical Sabbath because in Him we rest from our own work of trying to be good enough to earn our way into heaven, and we rest in the finished work that He has accomplished for us on the cross.
So the author of Hebrews boldly declares: “…we who have believed enter that rest…”
So do believers “keep” the Sabbath? Yes they do! By placing their faith in Jesus Christ and trusting that His work on the cross was sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins—and therefore resting in that work as complete and finished.
HOWEVER, I do agree with both Paul and Sag on the issue that if you are convinced in your own mind that you should keep the sabbath law, you are bound in your faith to keep it, otherwise it is sin unto you.
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iconoclast, it is clear that you are experienced in justifying man-made traditions & laws via proof-texting. It is not a lawful use of the law to wrap it around your own man-made laws. Instead of looking at Scripture in a "what does it mean to me & my beliefs", it should be studied with a "what did the text mean to the original recipients" attitude. The first day of the week was never regarded as an alternate sabbath.
As one who claims to adhere to the letter of the Old Law, do you set aside Saturday, the true sabbath, as a day of total rest; without traveling, cooking, or any other act of labor? If not, then your entire argument is fallacious.
As one who claims to adhere to the letter of the Old Law, do you set aside Saturday, the true sabbath, as a day of total rest; without traveling, cooking, or any other act of labor? If not, then your entire argument is fallacious.
I have a question concerning FORESHADOWING.
Which are a shadow of things to come;
Does this verse say that at the time of the writing of it the aforementioned things are still presently at that time a shadow or does it say they were a shadow until Christ came?
Which are a shadow of things to come;
Does this verse say that at the time of the writing of it the aforementioned things are still presently at that time a shadow or does it say they were a shadow until Christ came?
This was the time of the passover week. There were multiple Sabbath days at this time in addition to the regular weekly Sabbath. This is NOT saying that this first "Lord's Day" was the start of a new Sunday-Sabbath. That is stretching if that is what you intended.And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre
What in the world does this have to do with the Sabbath?Iconoclast said:I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,
What day was that? obeying God is not a yoke of slavery, it is our reasonable service.
The debate here is NOT whether we are regarding the Lord's Day. It is about whether the Scriptures make the Lord's Day the Sabbath Day. I contend that Scriptures do not make a link from the Sabbath observance to the Lord's Day as if they are the same observance.
Either we are bound to obey the Sabbaths in the Law (including seventh-day Sabbaths and feast Sabbaths) or we are not. No amount of Scripture fidgeting has proven to me that the Lord's Day is also the Sabbath.
I would link this verse to Hebrews 10:1.I have a question concerning FORESHADOWING.
Which are a shadow of things to come;
Does this verse say that at the time of the writing of it the aforementioned things are still presently at that time a shadow or does it say they were a shadow until Christ came?
When the Law was given, the shadow of it were of things to come. The present tense "having a shadow of things to come" was not from the vantage point of the time of writing, but rather from the vantage point of the giving of the Law. The things to come had come and were fulfilled in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
I would link this verse to Hebrews 10:1.
When the Law was given, the shadow of it were of things to come. The present tense "having a shadow of things to come" was not from the vantage point of the time of writing, but rather from the vantage point of the giving of the Law. The things to come had come and were fulfilled in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
I will just ask for two. Tell me what the feast of unleavened bread with it's two holy convocations seven days apart fore-shadows and also the feast of trumpets?
Iconoclast, if you feel so led to follow the Sabbath law then you are free to do so. But, I will not be bound to slavery nor will I be found guilty of making it a requirement for everyone else. If it's right for you then you better do it. But, I really believe that you are in gross error concerning the Scripture by saddling yourself with this requirement and demanding it of others as well. I forgive you for trying to force a yolk of slavery around my neck.
Keeping the day unto the Lord is not a yoke, but a delight. Sorry you do not see this. Do you think heaven will be a yoke forced upon peoples necks?
You do not follow the ten commandments then?
You are a lawless christian? Do you believe God's law is evil,and needs to be avoided?
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.I will just ask for two. Tell me what the feast of unleavened bread with it's two holy convocations seven days apart fore-shadows and also the feast of trumpets?
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The exact details of the feasts do not have to have an exact parallel in the work of Christ for Him to fulfill them. They all symbolize either what He did or what He will do.
This might be a good explanation.
We no longer celebrate Passover. We do, however, celebrate the Lord's Supper, which is a fulfillment of the Passover. Other feasts have fulfillments in what Christ did or will do. The rest in Christ is a fulfillment of the Sabbath.
Christ fulfilled the ordinances of the Law. We do not have to be subject to ordinances such as in the Law for the Christian life. The Christian life is about sharing Christ with others and being examples of moral purity and being unspotted by the flesh. It is not about sacerdotalism.
iconoclast, it is clear that you are experienced in justifying man-made traditions & laws via proof-texting. It is not a lawful use of the law to wrap it around your own man-made laws. Instead of looking at Scripture in a "what does it mean to me & my beliefs", it should be studied with a "what did the text mean to the original recipients" attitude. The first day of the week was never regarded as an alternate sabbath.
As one who claims to adhere to the letter of the Old Law, do you set aside Saturday, the true sabbath, as a day of total rest; without traveling, cooking, or any other act of labor? If not, then your entire argument is fallacious.
I notice you did not answer any of the questions I asked. by your response it looks like you did not read my post with any understanding at all.
If you answer what I posted I will respond to it.
If you are unable to respond, I understand.
Allan,
The seventh day sabbath was fulfilled in Christ as it had become part of the ceremonial law. Yes.
The Lords day sabbath is ongoing,even for saved gentiles as it was not a ceremonial law [seventh day]
The apostle John kept it,rev 1
According to the apostle Paul, the Sabbath was one of those thing FORESHADOWING what was to come.. and had come - in Christ.
The sabbath was the rest promised to be, and we have entered into that rest in Christ.
Again, with respect to saved Gentiles, what was commands the Counsel of Jerusalem stated they needed to abide by.. was the sabbath keeping included.. nope, I didn't think so.
The seventh day sabbath was fulfilled in Christ as it had become part of the ceremonial law. Yes.
The Lords day sabbath is ongoing,even for saved gentiles as it was not a ceremonial law [seventh day]
The apostle John kept it,rev 1
Who says we all aren't "keeping the day of the Lord." The onus is on YOU to prove that the Lord's Day is also the Sabbath. You have to prove from the Scriptures that the Sabbath switched to Sunday. You also have to do this in the face of Paul's admonition in Colossians chapter 2 to those who were uncircumcised in the flesh not to let people judge them about Sabbath days because they were a shadow of things to come. c.f. Hebrews 10:1.Keeping the day unto the Lord is not a yoke, but a delight.
You are reading way too much into what he is saying. It is those who seek to bring people back to following laws which have already been fulfilled in Christ (and changing them from their original context), that Paul clearly says that we are no longer under (Gal 3:23-25). He calls it "bondage" to believe one has to "observe days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal 4:9-10).Sorry you do not see this. Do you think heaven will be a yoke forced upon peoples necks?
You still need to prove that Sunday is the new Sabbath. Also, if you don't work six days per week, would you not be breaking the fourth commandment? (Exodus 20:9)You do not follow the ten commandments then?
The New Covenant is a "law of liberty" in which we are free to serve God in spirit and faith, not in sacerdotal ordinances (James 1:25; 2:8-12).You are a lawless christian? Do you believe God's law is evil,and needs to be avoided?
Show me this "Lord's day sabbath." I can't find it anywhere in Scripture.The seventh day sabbath was fulfilled in Christ as it had become part of the ceremonial law. Yes.
The Lords day sabbath is ongoing,even for saved gentiles as it was not a ceremonial law [seventh day]
The apostle John kept it,rev 1
I notice you did not answer any of the questions I asked. by your response it looks like you did not read my post with any understanding at all.
If you answer what I posted I will respond to it.
If you are unable to respond, I understand.
Your questions were well answered by others & I therefore felt no need to repeat what others have said.
Fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus 120 original sheep of Jesus were gathered together and the Holy Spirit came upon them and Peter began to preach. This was the day of firstfruits. Pentecost. Were the about three thousand of firstfruits that were added to the assembly of called out ones there because of this feast? Do you not think God gave this feast to Israel for this very purpose. That is to point to this period of time that that God is calling out from the Jew and Gentiles (nations) a people who have the firstfruits of the Spirit and for his name sake? See Romans 8:23, Romans 9:24 Acts 15:14.
Why should the church keep the feast of trumpets? Luke 11:1,2 Lord, teach us to pray, And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Acts 15:16 After this, (After the feast of first-fruits the calling out a people for his name.) I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 1 Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (With Jesus into the kingdom of God) 1 Thess. 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (When the feast of trumpets, the next feast, is fulfilled we will be the children of the resurrection therefore the children of God therefore born again and as the song says, be saved to sin no more.)
Should the church keep this feast being this feast is for the church?
Why should the church keep the feast of trumpets? Luke 11:1,2 Lord, teach us to pray, And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Acts 15:16 After this, (After the feast of first-fruits the calling out a people for his name.) I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 1 Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (With Jesus into the kingdom of God) 1 Thess. 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (When the feast of trumpets, the next feast, is fulfilled we will be the children of the resurrection therefore the children of God therefore born again and as the song says, be saved to sin no more.)
Should the church keep this feast being this feast is for the church?