The Lord's Day

[Allan]

Allan,


The seventh day sabbath was fulfilled in Christ as it had become part of the ceremonial law. Yes.

The Lords day sabbath is ongoing,even for saved gentiles as it was not a ceremonial law [seventh day]
The apostle John kept it,rev 1

There is nothing in scripture that connects the Lords day to the Sabbath. They are not one and the same brother. If they were, their would be some connection and thus irrefutable.. but since there isn't.. it is.
Clear as mud :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Show me this "Lord's day sabbath." I can't find it anywhere in Scripture.

:laugh: It is right next to the word trinity.

The verses in col 2, and gal 3 were speaking of Jewish ceremonial laws,which are now done. Finished . The OT theocracy is over....yes, I stated that and agree.

The ten Commamdments are in our heart now,The law is in our heart, if we are Gods child. All ten are still for all men everywhere.

Unsaved people will be judged by the law of God...not just 9 commandments,all ten.

They did not put 9 commadments into tha Ark of The Covenant, they put all ten.

Which one of the ten can christians despise?
Can we worship idols?
Steal, murder...some adultery?
Take The Lords name in vain?

This idea that Law is against grace...or we are now in an age of grace is another heresy. There are no lawless believers.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is nothing in scripture that connects the Lords day to the Sabbath. They are not one and the same brother. If they were, their would be some connection and thus irrefutable.. but since there isn't.. it is.
Clear as mud :laugh:

Allan, Do you believe the ten commandments were in effect before they were written on stone? The people that lived before Moses.....what law was for them? One day in Seven is a creation ordinance, before it was blended into the mosaic laws.
God rested. We should also.

 

[sag38]

This idea that Law is against grace...or we are now in an age of grace is another heresy. There are no lawless believers.

What exactly are you implying here? I hope it's not what I think. I don't follow the Sabbath as you say I should so does that make me lawless and therefore not a believer? You have already suggested that people who don't hold to the doctrines of grace are suspect and now it seems that you are suggesting the same of those who do not hold to the Sabbath rest as you interpret it to be. Hopefully I'm wrong (It won't be the first time and it won't be the last.). If I am then please accept my apology. If I'm not then I hope the moderators do their job.

 

[Alcott]

... (When the feast of trumpets, the next feast, is fulfilled we will be the children of the resurrection therefore the children of God therefore born again and as the song says, be saved to sin no more.)

Should the church keep this feast being this feast is for the church?

If it would make that day come quicker, I would. But it won't. Yet if it would... I would feast and feast fast. Between feasts, I would fast till I feast. But since the feast won't bring on the big fest by feasting fast, I'll just pound my fist and fast first till it's time to feast.

 

[Iconoclast]

This idea that Law is against grace...or we are now in an age of grace is another heresy. There are no lawless believers.

What exactly are you implying here? I hope it's not what I think. I don't follow the Sabbath as you say I should so does that make me lawless and therefore not a believer? You have already suggested that people who don't hold to the doctrines of grace are suspect and now it seems that you are suggesting the same of those who do not hold to the Sabbath rest as you interpret it to be. Hopefully I'm wrong (It won't be the first time and it won't be the last.). If I am then please accept my apology. If I'm not then I hope the moderators do their job.

This idea that Law is against grace...or we are now in an age of grace is another heresy. There are no lawless believers.

What exactly are you implying here? I hope it's not what I think. I don't follow the Sabbath as you say I should so does that make me lawless and therefore not a believer? You have already suggested that people who don't hold to the doctrines of grace are suspect and now it seems that you are suggesting the same of those who do not hold to the Sabbath rest as you interpret it to be. Hopefully I'm wrong (It won't be the first time and it won't be the last.). If I am then please accept my apology. If I'm not then I hope the moderators do their job.

Sag38
Thanks for your response. I am speaking about the idea that it is okay to be against all law. in the NT Paul says....the law is holy just and good!
Do you believe this? Some believe the law of God was done away at pentecost.....and there is only grace now,as if law and grace do not go together. Law and grace go together.
We do not keep the ten Commandments [or the mosaic laws,which were added,and finished in Christ],,,in order to be saved.
Once saved however we obey the ten commandments,and there expanded teaching[all lawful NT commands given by Jesus and the apostles]
Are we agreed here? I know you do not hold similar understanding on the D.o.G.....yet,:laugh:
Sag38 how do you see this bigger issue of the law.You have told me where you think I am off track several times.Tell me what you think on this?

 

[Iconoclast]

How do you brethren view this from Isa.66

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

this speaking of a time after pentecost, how does this fit your system? literal? spiritual? both? sabbath rest while eternal in Jesus,yet this says from one sabbath to another

 

[percho]

How do you brethren view this from Isa.66



this speaking of a time after pentecost, how does this fit your system? literal? spiritual? both? sabbath rest while eternal in Jesus,yet this says from one sabbath to another

I think it is relative to the following:

There is no record in Genesis that God gave the sabbath to man, and there is no record of men keeping the sabbath before Israel in the wilderness. Nehemiah 9:13-14 plainly states that the sabbath was first given to Israel.

My reply to the above quote.

It was made known to Israel before they got to Sinai. It was in existence before the law was given at Sinai.

After the law was given the children of Israel, that is the house of Judah and the house of Israel they were told it was a covenant sign that God was the creator and they were the only people of all the families of the earth that he did know as his people. The sabbath identified the the children of Israel as the people of God. It is the primary identifier of the Jews today that and their other religious customs including circumcision. They are sabbath keepers.

When the nations split after Solomon died the house of Israel changed the seventh month feast to the eighth month and there is also evidence he changed the weekly sabbath to another day. I wonder witch day this would be?

Compare: Leviticus 23:2-4 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim holy convocations, these my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work: it the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. (Along with the rest of chapter for monthly feast holy convocations, sabbath days) To: Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

This is the house of Israel that did away with their identifying sign, the sabbath, that God said would not be his people and he would not be their God. In Jer. 3 God says he gave her the house of Israel a bill of divorce.

He is not speaking of the house of Judah, the Jews, see Jer. 3:8-10 and Hosea 1:6-9 they did not do away with their sign. They were also great sinners yet they held on to their identifying sign.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Just who did he foreknow? Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.

What about their sign?

 

[AresMan]

:laugh: It is right next to the word trinity.

There are plenty of verses that make the concept of a Trinity clear without using the word. However, to my point, there are plenty of verses, such as ones that I quoted in prior posts, that make it abundantly clear that Christians are not subject to a strict Sabbath day as defined in the Torah.[/QUOTE]

The verses in col 2, and gal 3 were speaking of Jewish ceremonial laws,which are now done. Finished . The OT theocracy is over....yes, I stated that and agree.

Thank you. And I believe that a literal Sabbath day observation is part of the ceremonial law.
If you want to argue that God instituted the Sabbath day before the Law and that this therefore proves a universal command to a literal Sabbath day, I would direct to you that animal sacrifices and circumcision were instituted before the Law, yet those have been fulfilled by the Cross.

The ten Commamdments are in our heart now,The law is in our heart, if we are Gods child. All ten are still for all men everywhere.

Yes, the Law is in our hearts now, but we are not subject to everything strictly as they were given insomuch as Christ has fulfilled them.

For instance, we no longer perform ritual sacrifices because Christ has fulfilled them. The New Covenant equivalent is recognizing that Christ was the Perfect atonement and that we should give our bodies as a living sacrifice to God.
We no longer are subject to a literal Sabbath day because Christ has fulfilled that by performing His perfect work on our behalf. We now enter into His rest as our Sabbath.

We now no longer observe feasts as Christ fulfilled the types for which the feasts represented. Our feasts before God are our joy in His and His Person and Work. We are instructed to celebrate the Lord's Supper, which echoes the Passover, however.

Unsaved people will be judged by the law of God...not just 9 commandments,all ten.

I agree, but they will be judged by all ten in the sense that they never entered into Christ's rest for the Sabbath.

They did not put 9 commadments into tha Ark of The Covenant, they put all ten.

I agree, the Law is pure and still alive. It is just that now we do not follow it in the same incarnation as when it was originally given. We follow the Law of Christ which is the Law fulfilled. The New Covenant is not an exact mirror of the Old Covenant, but it has fulfillments for all the Old Covenant.

Which one of the ten can christians despise?

None.

Can we worship idols?

Nope.

Steal, murder...some adultery?

Nope.

Take The Lords name in vain?

Nope.

This idea that Law is against grace...or we are now in an age of grace is another heresy. There are no lawless believers.

I agree. I consider myself a progressive dispensationalist/New Covenant theologian. I also am a sovereign gracer.
I am a covenantalist, but not in the same way that many modern ones are. The early reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, were NOT like the modern covenantalists who try to make literal mirror images of the Old Covenant into the New Covenant.

The whole law is fulfilled and exists in the New Covenant, but not all literally or with a literal equivalent.

There does not need to be a literal Sabbath day in the New Covenant to maintain the Sabbath. We have entered into Christ's rest. This is our Sabbath. There is no lawlessness there.
We do not have to have literal sacrifices in the New Covenant to maintain the sacrifices. Christ has become the perfect sacrifice. "Sacrifices" are performed in the New Covenant as we recognize Christ as our sacrifice and we present our bodies a living sacrifice.

The moral law is still there. We cannot murder, steal, commit adultery. These are also the laws of equity.

The Sabbath is part of the ceremonial law, and Christ has fulfilled all the types of the ceremonial law.

Understand?

 

[Iconoclast]

Aresman,

I am glad to see we are mostly in agreement on many things..and i thank you for taking the time to present your understanding of these things.

The moral law is still there. We cannot murder, steal, commit adultery. These are also the laws of equity.

The Sabbath is part of the ceremonial law, and Christ has fulfilled all the types of the ceremonial law.

Understand?

What did you mean by "laws of equity"? give an example if possible.

The sabbath did become a part of the ceremonial law,with additional requirements added to it[The Lord Jesus Christ has completed and done away with those things]........on this we agree. I am not a judiazer!

There is an eternal rest for the people of God,In union with Christ..we have entered into His rest ....His finished ,once for all atonement Hebrews 10:10-14

The Lords Day rest is not meant to be the mosaic ceremonial sabbaths[plural] with feast days, new moons etc.

yet in hebrews 4 we see this;

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

At the end of chapter 3 he spoke of OT covenant breakers who could not enter into the "eternal rest"

18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

here is an article that helps;

Ligonier Ministries: The teaching fellowship of R.C. Sproul
by Sinclair Ferguson

The anonymous author of Hebrews found different ways of describing the superiority of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of them, which forms the underlying motif of chapters 3 and 4, is that Jesus Christ gives the rest that neither Moses nor Joshua could provide. Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

In speaking of this rest (3:18; 4:1, 3–6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come … I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28–30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (4:11).Since Augustine, Christians have recognized that the Bible describes human experience in a fourfold scheme: in(i) creation, (ii) fall, (iii) redemption and (iv) glory. We are familiar with echoes of this in the Westminster Confession of Faith (chapter 9) and in Thomas Boston’s great book Human Nature in its Fourfold State. It is no surprise then that the Sabbath, which was made for man, is experienced by him in four ways.

In creation, man was made as God’s image — intended “naturally” as God’s child to reflect his Father. Since his Father worked creatively for six days and rested on the seventh, Adam, like a son, was to copy Him. Together, on the seventh day, they were to walk in the garden. That day was a time to listen to all the Father had to show and tell about the wonders of His creating work.

Thus the Sabbath Day was meant to be “Father’s Day” every week. It was “made” for Adam. It also had a hint of the future in it. The Father had finished His work, but Adam had not.

But Adam fell. He ruined everything, including the Sabbath. Instead of walking with God, he hid from God (Gen. 3:8). It was the Sabbath, Father’s Day, but God had to look for him!

This new context helps us to understand the significance of the fourth commandment. It was given to fallen man — that is why it contains a “you shall not.” He was not to work, but to rest. Externally, that meant ceasing from his ordinary tasks in order to meet with God. Internally, it involved ceasing from all self-sufficiency in order to rest in God’s grace.

Considering this, what difference did the coming of Jesus make to the Sabbath day? In Christ crucified and risen, we find eternal rest (Matt. 11:28–30), and we are restored to communion with God (Matt. 11:25–30). The lost treasures of the Sabbath are restored. We rest in Christ from our labor of self-sufficiency, and we have access to the Father (Eph. 2:18). As we meet with Him, He shows us Himself, His ways, His world, His purposes, His glory. And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

But we have not yet reached the goal. We still struggle to rest from our labors; we still must “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11). Consequently the weekly nature of the Sabbath continues as a reminder that we are not yet home with the Father. And since this rest is ours only through union with Christ in His death and resurrection, our struggles to refuse the old life and enjoy the new continue.

But one may ask: “How does this impact my Sundays as a Christian?” This view of the Sabbath should help us regulate our weeks. Sunday is “Father’s Day,” and we have an appointment to meet Him. The child who asks “How short can the meeting be? ” has a dysfunctional relationship problem — not an intellectual, theological problem — something is amiss in his fellowship with God.

This view of the Sabbath helps us deal with the question “Is it ok to do … on Sunday? — because I don’t have any time to do it in the rest of the week?” If this is our question, the problem is not how we use Sunday, it is how we are misusing the rest of the week.

This view of the Lord’s Day helps us see the day as a foretaste of heaven. And it teaches us that if the worship, fellowship, ministry, and outreach of our churches do not give expression to that then something is seriously amiss.

Hebrews teaches us that eternal glory is a Sabbath rest. Every day, all day, will be “Father’s Day”! Thus if here and now we learn the pleasures of a God-given weekly rhythm, it will no longer seem strange to us that the eternal glory can be described as a prolonged Sabbath!

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Greater than the Temple Devotional
The Aim of the Sabbath Devotional
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ShareArticle InfoFrom Tabletalk Magazine
Date March 1st, 2004
Topics Controversies in the Church, Sabbath
Keywords Lord's Day, Sabbath
Sinclair Ferguson

Dr. Sinclair B. Ferguson is senior minister of First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina.
More from Sinclair Ferguson
Holiness: 2001 National ConferenceDon’t Answer a Fool, Answer a FoolThe Author of FaithWhat Does Justification Have to do with the Gospel?No Greater LoveAll Resources by Sinclair Ferguson Related Products Celebrating the Sabbath: Finding Rest in a Restless World
by Bruce Ray

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

This idea that Law is against grace...or we are now in an age of grace is another heresy. There are no lawless believers.

You are wrong.

The scriptures tell is that we are no longer under the Law, we are freed from the Law, we are dead to the Law, the Law has no power over us, Christ has freed us from the Law, and the Law is a curse that we are not under.

And that just from one small part or Galatians.

AiC

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...



You are wrong.

The scriptures tell is that we are no longer under the Law, we are freed from the Law, we are dead to the Law, the Law has no power over us, Christ has freed us from the Law, and the Law is a curse that we are not under.

And that just from one small part or Galatians.

AiC

Actually....it is you that are very very wrong my friend;

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

opps you might have missed this one...

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

AIC.....if you understood Galatians that you are quoting you would see quickly that we are discussing two different things.

The 10 commandments in the Nt .....vs mosaic laws during the theocracy.

This list that you quote; is about Jews seeking justifcation by Mosaic laws,plus their tradition...which was not intended to justify them.

The scriptures tell is that we are no longer under the Law, we are freed from the Law, we are dead to the Law, the Law has no power over us, Christ has freed us from the Law, and the Law is a curse that we are not under.

to try to be justified this way is death,we cannot do it.
We are justified by Jesus doing it....

21The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You are dancing, brother.

You are dancing around it in a way that would make Fred Astaire proud. I've heard that song and dance more times that I could count.

You guys simply will not accept that the corpse is dead. You keep trying to ressurect the dead corpse

We are free from the Law. We are dead to it.

We live now under the New Covenant. Not the Old. Doesnt mean we throw those scriptures away, but we interpret them in light of the new covenant truth.

We have been set free. We are unshackled.

We live in the "newness" of the "Spirit", and not the "oldness" of the "letter"

Why?

Because

"The letter kills, but the Spirit giveth life

Praise the Lord

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

You are dancing, brother.

You are dancing around it in a way that would make Fred Astaire proud. I've heard that song and dance more times that I could count.

You guys simply will not accept that the corpse is dead. You keep trying to ressurect the dead corpse

We are free from the Law. We are dead to it.

We live now under the New Covenant. Not the Old. Doesnt mean we throw those scriptures away, but we interpret them in light of the new covenant truth.

We have been set free. We are unshackled.

We live in the "newness" of the "Spirit", and not the "oldness" of the "letter"

Why?

Because

Praise the Lord

Your failure to address the scriptures I offered shows you are void of understanding. You say ;

I've heard that song and dance more times that I could count.

The reason you hear it so much...is that anyone who knows the passages realizes you have bought into error ...big time. So they tell you the truth and you answer with fluff.

We have been set free. We are unshackled.

You are speaking of antinomianism......

You guys simply will not accept that the corpse is dead. You keep trying to ressurect the dead corpse

Paul does not think keeping the ten commandments is resurrecting a corpse, in fact .....he says Love is fulfilling the LAW romans 13
I guess you would suggest to Paul that he lives in the "oldness of the letter"

We are free from the Law. We are dead to it.

this statement as it stands is the statement of the ungodly;
see psalm 1......the godly man delights in the law of the Lord...not so the ungodly.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You appear to have no understanding, or very shallow understanding, of the difference between...

The Old Covenant.

And...

The New Covenant

I urge you, with great sincerity, to dig into the scriptures, and do a heartfelt, diligent...OPEN MINDED...study on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, particularly the diference between the two.

Its a foundation of truth that is of utmost importance.

You are simply confused. And I say that with no malice or any anger at all.

I say it "brother to brother"

Seek knowledge concerning the New Covenant, and the Old Covenant.

It will set you free.

Praise God.

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC,
I believe you are sincere and trying to help,I am thankful that you are offering what you understand,as you say...brother to brother.

You are simply confused. And I say that with no malice or any anger at all.

I say it "brother to brother"

Seek knowledge concerning the New Covenant, and the Old Covenant.

It will set you free.

The point I think you do not see.....The 10 commandments were before the old covenant.....before Moses..2 cor 3...is speaking of Mosaic legislation

Do you see what i am saying here?

The 10 commandments are there first......

The mosaic laws were an expansion of the ten commandments ...for Israel at that time [the time of the old covenant]

Israel failed to keep the terms of the covenant at that time.

Jesus ...is the New Israel...he does not fail, but keeps the law for us[elect]

We are saved by Jesus law keeping....on our behalf

In the new covenant....believers have the law,ie, The ten commandments with the nt epistles an expansion of the ten commandments....that we have in our hearts.....

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul is explaining the correct NT use of the law.....

5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

vs 9 and vs 10 are speaking of the 10 commandments

Do you see it this time? Say yes,....you are giving me stress

here is some help;
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ai...&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You posted this scripture...

7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Thats an excellant passage of scripture. That passage explaines exactly what the Law is for...

TO CONDEMN.

Who does it say its for?...

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Lost people! The LOST need to understand thier lostness. Their sinful condition. The understanding of their lostness is essential, so that they will be driven to Christ for NEW LIFE.

Once they are born again, the law has done its job. They now are in "the light".

They are no longer being convicted by the law, but rather, they are being taught and influenced by the indwelling Holy Spirit, who now lives in them.

Its a beautiful way to live.

Its now time for me to get some sleep. Good night to you and your's.

AiC

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is more help if you are serious about this topic;

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/6135589....the download is only 5$
Here is a section from this book by W.R.Downing
used by permission of the author;

Quest. 124: What is the moral standard for the believer’s life?
Ans: The Moral Law of God is the moral standard for the believer’s
life.
Psa. 119:97. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Rom. 7:12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy,
and just, and good.
Rom. 8:4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
See also: Ex. 20:1–17; Deut. 6:4–5; Matt. 5:17–18; 22:37–40. Jn.
13:34–35; Gal. 3:24; 1 Tim. 1:5–11; Heb. 4:9; 1 Jn. 2:3–5; 5:1–3.
COMMENTARY
The nature and relevance of the Moral Law are set forth in Questions 39–
42. An exposition of the Moral Law as epitomized in the Decalogue is set
forth in Questions 43–63. In summary, several issues can be noted: first, the
prologue to the Decalogue reveals that the Law was given, not as a means of
salvation, but so a redeemed covenant people might reflect the moral
character of their God and Redeemer. Legislation always accompanies
redemption. This remains true in both the Old and the New or Gospel
Covenants (Matt. 22:36–40; Rom. 7:12; 8:1–4; 13:8–10; 1 Tim. 1:8–11; 1 Jn.
2:3–5).
Second, the Moral Law is not limited to the Decalogue or Ten
Commandments, but is inclusive of all the moral commands of Scripture. This
is exemplified in the coherence or non–contradictory nature of Scripture itself.
The various summaries of the Moral Law (Ex. 20:1–17; Deut. 6:5; Matt.
22:36–40; Rom. 13:8–10; 1 Tim. 1:5–11) epitomize what is expanded in its
fullness in both the Old and New Testaments. Indeed, the Moral Law is
unfolded or amplified and interpreted explicitly and implicitly in and by the
New Testament.
Third, the Decalogue as the epitome of the Moral Law is a series of case
laws which may be expanded coherently to cover every moral issue (e.g.,
Matt. 5:27–28; 1 Jn. 3:15). In the Decalogue, as the epitome of the Moral
Law, God legislated morality. He has not changed in these precepts. The
Moral Law of God is the Law of Christ.
Fourth, sin must be viewed in terms of God’s law. All and every sin is
heinous in God’s sight. It is a transgression of his law or lawlessness (1 Jn.
3:4). See Question 36. The Moral Law keeps us from misrepresenting and
misinterpreting sin or excusing it. Remember, the absence or opposite of law
is not grace; it is lawlessness.
Fifth, There is necessarily a moral Law for God’s moral creatures. The law
is internalized or written in the believer’s heart in the operations of Divine
grace, answering to the law ontologically embedded in man’s heart at creation
as the image–bearer of God, and is now renewed with a regenerate mind–set
239
(Rom. 8:1–9; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10). God’s grace through the work of
the Spirit leads to a love and desire to conform to God’s moral character and
commandments (Psa. 1:1–3; 119:159; Rom. 6:14; 8:1–9; 1 Jn. 2:3–5).
Sixth, the very work of salvation, especially sanctification, is to produce a
holy people. This holiness reflects that of God’s own moral character (Jas.
1:18; 1 Pet. 1:15–16; 2:9). God’s grace produces “a peculiar people, zealous
of good works” (Titus 2:14). It is not God’s purpose that his people be unholy
or unrighteous. Any subjective or indefinite standard would be out of keeping
with the objective simplicity of God’s Moral Law and character, as would the
absence of any moral standard!
Seventh, the weakness of the Old Covenant was that the heart remained
unchanged and religion was merely external, except for an elect remnant of
true believers. Under the New or Gospel Covenant, the heart or inner being is
transformed through regeneration [the impartation of Divine life, the re–
creation of the image of God in righteousness, holiness of the truth and
knowledge, the breaking of the reigning power of sin and the removal of the
natural heart–enmity to the Law of God] to conform in principle to the Moral
Law. Grace conforms us in principle to love and obey the precepts of God.
Thus, the Law is not merely external, but also internal as to its content and
motivation (Jer. 31:31–34; Ezk. 11:19–20; 36:25–27; Rom. 2:11–16; 6:14; 2
Cor. 3:3, 17–18; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:1–10; Heb. 8:8–11).
It must be noted in Rom. 6:14 that the definite article [“the”] does not occur
before the word “law” in the Greek. Thus, it refers to a principle of law, i.e., a
principle of mere outward command, as contrasted with the inward principle
and dynamic of grace. Legalism is not spirituality; it is external. It is of works
[human ability], not of grace. Divine grace sanctifies inwardly; it reflects
God’s righteous character. Any denial of this reality is a denial of Divine
grace in regeneration, conversion and sanctification—and this strikes at the
very heart of antinomianism. Although the Moral Law can neither justify nor
sanctify, it remains the Divine standard.
Eighth, most of the errors in Christianity can be traced to either a neglect or
denial of the relevance of the Moral Law—Wesleyan perfectionism,
mysticism [Quakerism], self–righteousness [mere legalism], the defective
view of depravity inherent in Socinianism and Arminianism, antinomianism
and the modern errors of the “carnal Christian” heresy and “decisionism.”
Extreme Dispensationalism is inherently antinomian, as it erroneously
replaces Law with grace and fails to see the grace of law.
Ninth, as the law is fulfilled in love, so is love defined by the Law (Rom.
13:8–10). If we do not unlawfully take our neighbor’s life, steal from him, act
immorally toward him, diminish him in any way, or seek his harm in thought,
word or deed, or lie about him or to him and do not covet what he has, and
when we seek his good—then we are biblically loving our neighbor. Only in
the context of biblical law and love—an objective, obedient, intelligent
love—can we consistently love others, even our enemies. See Question 164.
240
Tenth, faith does not render the Law of God void, but rather establishes it
(Rom. 3:21–31). As believers, we “died to the law” as an instrument of
condemnation. By virtue of our union with Christ and faith in him the Law is
established, not abrogated (Rom. 3:21–31; 7:4; Gal. 2:16–21

 

[percho]

Alive in Christ and all concerned.

Would remember the sabbath day to keep it holy be somewhere in the context of loving God with all your heart?

Well I just read 2 Cor. 3 again so let me ask, Is it the letter of the law that transgression of brings death done away with or it is death itself or is it both that are done away with?

Now without law there can be no transgression yet John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Therefore the law must exist. Being sin is the transgression of the law.

Is the sabbath command one of those laws we must confess of in order to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus?

You know the very existence of Bible forums should worry Christians. Think about this. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

After all one deceived dosen't know he is deceived or he would not be deceived.

Maybe this should be a new thread. If anyone think so please start one.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclst...

You posted this......

Quest. 124: What is the moral standard for the believer’s life?
Ans: The Moral Law of God is the moral standard for the believer’s
life.
Psa. 119:97. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Rom. 7:12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy,
and just, and good.
Rom. 8:4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I also love the law, as this passage says. The law is God given, and it has its
divinely appointed purposes. To searve as a standard of morality, and to cause
Gods people to see thier wretchedness, and thier need for Divine help.

The nature and relevance of the Moral Law are set forth in Questions 39–
42. An exposition of the Moral Law as epitomized in the Decalogue is set
forth in Questions 43–63. In summary, several issues can be noted: first, the
prologue to the Decalogue reveals that the Law was given, not as a means of
salvation, but so a redeemed covenant people might reflect the moral
character of their God and Redeemer. Legislation always accompanies
redemption. This remains true in both the Old and the New or Gospel
Covenants (Matt. 22:36–40; Rom. 7:12; 8:1–4; 13:8–10; 1 Tim. 1:8–11; 1 Jn.
2:3–5).
Second, the Moral Law is not limited to the Decalogue or Ten
Commandments, but is inclusive of all the moral commands of Scripture. This
is exemplified in the coherence or non–contradictory nature of Scripture itself.
The various summaries of the Moral Law (Ex. 20:1–17; Deut. 6:5; Matt.
22:36–40; Rom. 13:8–10; 1 Tim. 1:5–11) epitomize what is expanded in its
fullness in both the Old and New Testaments. Indeed, the Moral Law is
unfolded or amplified and interpreted explicitly and implicitly in and by the
New Testament.
Third, the Decalogue as the epitome of the Moral Law is a series of case
laws which may be expanded coherently to cover every moral issue (e.g.,
Matt. 5:27–28; 1 Jn. 3:15). In the Decalogue, as the epitome of the Moral
Law, God legislated morality. He has not changed in these precepts. The
Moral Law of God is the Law of Christ.
Fourth, sin must be viewed in terms of God’s law. All and every sin is
heinous in God’s sight. It is a transgression of his law or lawlessness (1 Jn.
3:4). See Question 36. The Moral Law keeps us from misrepresenting and
misinterpreting sin or excusing it. Remember, the absence or opposite of law
is not grace; it is lawlessness.
Fifth, There is necessarily a moral Law for God’s moral creatures. The law
is internalized or written in the believer’s heart in the operations of Divine
grace, answering to the law ontologically embedded in man’s heart at creation
as the image–bearer of God, and is now renewed with a regenerate mind–set
239
(Rom. 8:1–9; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10). God’s grace through the work of
the Spirit leads to a love and desire to conform to God’s moral character and
commandments (Psa. 1:1–3; 119:159; Rom. 6:14; 8:1–9; 1 Jn. 2:3–5).
Sixth, the very work of salvation, especially sanctification, is to produce a
holy people. This holiness reflects that of God’s own moral character (Jas.
1:18; 1 Pet. 1:15–16; 2:9). God’s grace produces “a peculiar people, zealous
of good works” (Titus 2:14). It is not God’s purpose that his people be unholy
or unrighteous. Any subjective or indefinite standard would be out of keeping
with the objective simplicity of God’s Moral Law and character, as would the
absence of any moral standard!
Seventh, the weakness of the Old Covenant was that the heart remained
unchanged and religion was merely external, except for an elect remnant of
true believers. Under the New or Gospel Covenant, the heart or inner being is
transformed through regeneration [the impartation of Divine life, the re–
creation of the image of God in righteousness, holiness of the truth and
knowledge, the breaking of the reigning power of sin and the removal of the
natural heart–enmity to the Law of God] to conform in principle to the Moral
Law. Grace conforms us in principle to love and obey the precepts of God.
Thus, the Law is not merely external, but also internal as to its content and
motivation (Jer. 31:31–34; Ezk. 11:19–20; 36:25–27; Rom. 2:11–16; 6:14; 2
Cor. 3:3, 17–18; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:1–10; Heb. 8:8–11).

I wont comment on any of that because I generally agree with it. Nothing in there is
problematic regarding my view..

It must be noted in Rom. 6:14 that the definite article [“the”] does not occur
before the word “law” in the Greek. Thus, it refers to a principle of law, i.e., a
principle of mere outward command, as contrasted with the inward principle
and dynamic of grace. Legalism is not spirituality; it is external. It is of works
[human ability], not of grace. Divine grace sanctifies inwardly; it reflects
God’s righteous character. Any denial of this reality is a denial of Divine
grace in regeneration, conversion and sanctification—and this strikes at the
very heart of antinomianism. Although the Moral Law can neither justify nor
sanctify, it remains the Divine standard.
Eighth, most of the errors in Christianity can be traced to either a neglect or
denial of the relevance of the Moral Law—Wesleyan perfectionism,
mysticism [Quakerism], self–righteousness [mere legalism], the defective
view of depravity inherent in Socinianism and Arminianism, antinomianism
and the modern errors of the “carnal Christian” heresy and “decisionism.”
Extreme Dispensationalism is inherently antinomian, as it erroneously
replaces Law with grace and fails to see the grace of law.
Ninth, as the law is fulfilled in love, so is love defined by the Law (Rom.
13:8–10). If we do not unlawfully take our neighbor’s life, steal from him, act
immorally toward him, diminish him in any way, or seek his harm in thought,
word or deed, or lie about him or to him and do not covet what he has, and
when we seek his good—then we are biblically loving our neighbor. Only in
the context of biblical law and love—an objective, obedient, intelligent
love—can we consistently love others, even our enemies. See Question 164

I dont see anything in any of that that that disturbs my point .
240

Tenth, faith does not render the Law of God void, but rather establishes it
(Rom. 3:21–31). As believers, we “died to the law” as an instrument of
condemnation. By virtue of our union with Christ and faith in him the Law is
established, not abrogated (Rom. 3:21–31; 7:4; Gal. 2:16–21

No problem for me. The Law still serves as a moral guide, and it continues to cause
honest lost people to realise thier depravity. and turn to Christ.
At that point, the child of God is freed from Law, and its condemnation.
They are then living in the "newness of the Spirit", as opposed to the oldness of the law.

Because the law brings death, while the Spirit brings life.


Here are some good passages of scripture for you to consider....

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not]b] of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.