"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

[Yeshua1]

The answer is Calvinism has no answer. They simply assert the logical impossibility that God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass including our choice to sin, yet God is not the author of that sin. Hangs together nicely. Another feeble-minded effort is to say because we freely choose to sin, i.e. sin this way and not that way, even though we have no choice not to choose to sin, makes us responsible for our sin.

And anyone who points out the King has no clothes is charged with ignorance, malice and hate. And the beat goes on.

you have infinite wisdom and knowledge as He does to "pull all of this off?"

Are ANY choices/decisions ever done that either he did not cause to ne made, or else permitted it to have happened that way?

Is there anything done outside of his absolute knowledge or control?

 

[MorseOp]

What I still want to know that, no Calvinist here or anywhere, in my experience, has sufficiently answered...

Has sufficiently answered to your satisfaction. And why should they? I do not ask Arminians to answer to my satisfaction. Why? Because I already know what they believe. You have claimed to be a former Calvinist. If that is true then you already know the answer, which makes this thread unnecessary.

 

[Skandelon]

Has sufficiently answered to your satisfaction.

Obviously.

And why should they?

Because this is a debate board where we debate such matters. You have the FREEDOM to answer the question or ignore it....or do you?

I do not ask Arminians to answer to my satisfaction. Why? Because I already know what they believe.

So why are you here, since apparently you already have arrived at all knowledge of all the various views and approaches to all these complex matters of soteriology? Every argument you make against "Arminianism" is a point that hasn't been answered to your satisfaction and acceptance, otherwise you'd agree with it...thus the DEBATE. Now, you can engage that debate or continue to play with semantics...

You have claimed to be a former Calvinist. If that is true then you already know the answer, which makes this thread unnecessary.

I rejected Calvinism, in part, because it failed to answer this question... at least to my satisfaction. Can you?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Are ANY choices/decisions ever done that either he did not cause to ne made, or else permitted it to have happened that way?

Gonna basically repeat myself and to none avail...but, I went ahead and bolded the two words you are using as equivocal and wrongly so....

Cause: That is ONE word with a distinct meaning
Permitted: A completely different word with an alternative meaning....

You play the same game of equivocation with your last sentence here....and I will bold (yet again) the words you are equivocating with:

Is there anything done outside of his absolute knowledge or control?

Knowledge: One word, with a distinct and also Universally un-debated meaning from every Baptist including the entire spectrum of Open Theist to Supra-lapsarian Calvinist <----(The only intelectually honest form)
Control: Yet a different word with its own personal place in any given Webster's Dictionary, and therefore it's own implications which, generally speaking imply at minimum some form of causation which is not even remotely implied in the definition of "knowledge".....You know this, of course.....But so what! De-railing threads is fun isn't it?
You Played the same game of equivocating words in the post I responded to earlier...Thus, for the sake of lurkers only (and not yours, as you are un-teachable).... I will Bold yet again where you play fast and loose with words as though they contained no meaning:

did it directly

A concept with one particular meaning

permitted it

An utterly different concept with an utterly different meaning.................................You know this, of course (I think) but, YOU couldn't care less.

Maybe it will help some innocent lurkers you subject to your non-sense

 

[Yeshua1]

Gonna basically repeat myself and to none avail...but, I went ahead and bolded the two words you are using as equivocal and wrongly so....

Cause: That is ONE word with a distinct meaning
Permitted: A completely different word with an alternative meaning....

You play the same game of equivocation with your last sentence here....and I will bold (yet again) the words you are equivocating with:

Knowledge: One word, with a distinct and also Universally un-debated meaning from every Baptist including the entire spectrum of Open Theist to Supra-lapsarian Calvinist <----(The only intelectually honest form)
Control: Yet a different word with its own personal place in any given Webster's Dictionary, and therefore it's own implications which, generally speaking imply at minimum some form of causation which is not even remotely implied in the definition of "knowledge".....You know this, of course.....But so what! De-railing threads is fun isn't it?
You Played the same game of equivocating words in the post I responded to earlier...Thus, for the sake of lurkers only (and not yours, as you are un-teachable).... I will Bold yet again where you play fast and loose with words as though they contained no meaning:


A concept with one particular meaning

An utterly different concept with an utterly different meaning.................................You know this, of course (I think) but, YOU couldn't care less.

Maybe it will help some innocent lurkers you subject to your non-sense

Did God know what you would write back in your post to me?

Did He allow you to write it "way you wanted?"

Could he had stepped and controlled what you actually wrote If he had so chosen?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Did God know what you would write back in your post to me?

Yes

Did He allow you to write it "way you wanted?"

Yes

Could he had stepped and controlled what you actually wrote If he had so chosen?

Yes

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes

Yes

Yes

great, you have just made the point of calvinism and the sovereignty/foreknowledge of God!

 

[Skandelon]

great, you have just made the point of calvinism and the sovereignty/foreknowledge of God!

No he didn't. He affirm the divine permissive will, not determinism. You are the one who presumes that divine permissiveness equals divine determinism, which is really just a big game of Question Begging.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

great, you have just made the point of calvinism and the sovereignty/foreknowledge of God!

NO, I haven't...all Arminians...even Open Theists would affirm the positive answer I gave to all of your questions. That was not a brilliant and imperceptible trap you just caught me in....Everyone already knows these particulars...but they are simply not unique to Calvinism.....and you equivocated yet again with your mis-use of the terms:

Sovereignty

and

Foreknowledge

They are not the same word, and they don't have the same meaning....In fact, one can have one of those and not the other....
One can be totally "Sovereign" and yet not posses exhaustive "fore-knowledge" (ask an Open Theist)....and similarly...one could posses exhaustive "Foreknowledge" and yet not be "Sovereign"....But you have equivocated yet again with both of them.


Do you truly not know what Calvinism implies??? I am actually at a loss. Does anyone know whether you mispell every fifth word, utilize sentence fragments and never correctly capitalize proper nouns intentionally? Are you ESL?

Do you honestly think that my answering in the affirmative to your posed questions implied Calvinism? Are you some form of "evil genius" who posts the way you post intentionally in order to accomplish some heretofore disguised secret goal of supporting Arminianistic notions by defending Calvinism as abyssmally as possible? Are you generally serious with your posts, or are they utterly "tongue-in-cheek"? You win......you have me completely perplexed.

 

[Yeshua1]

NO, I haven't...all Arminians...even Open Theists would affirm the positive answer I gave to all of your questions. That was not a brilliant and imperceptible trap you just caught me in....Everyone already knows these particulars...but they are simply not unique to Calvinism.....and you equivocated yet again with your mis-use of the terms:

and


They are not the same word, and they don't have the same meaning....In fact, one can have one of those and not the other....
One can be totally "Sovereign" and yet not posses exhaustive "fore-knowledge" (ask an Open Theist)....and similarly...one could posses exhaustive "Foreknowledge" and yet not be "Sovereign"....But you have equivocated yet again with both of them.


Do you truly not know what Calvinism implies??? I am actually at a loss. Does anyone know whether you mispell every fifth word, utilize sentence fragments and never correctly capitalize proper nouns intentionally? Are you ESL?

Do you honestly think that my answering in the affirmative to your posed questions implied Calvinism? Are you some form of "evil genius" who posts the way you post intentionally in order to accomplish some heretofore disguised secret goal of supporting Arminianistic notions by defending Calvinism as abyssmally as possible? Are you generally serious with your posts, or are they utterly "tongue-in-cheek"? You win......you have me completely perplexed.

I know more importantly what the Bible affirms, in that God is a being who has absolute knowledge of ALL things possible, and who also has full Sovereignty over all things, and that he can also chose to allow for decisions and choices of others to be part of His predestined plans!

However we state this, BOTh God is sovereign and he knows all things in absolute sense are true!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I know more importantly what the Bible affirms, in that God is a being who has absolute knowledge of ALL things possible, and who also has full Sovereignty over all things, and that he can also chose to allow for decisions and choices of others to be part of His predestined plans!

However we state this, BOTh God is sovereign and he knows all things in absolute sense are true!

:jesus::thumbs:Ah....so, then, you are a somewhat Molinistic Arminian like me!!!!!...welcome to the fold!!!! I should have realized that we agreed on these things. :thumbsup: And, Yes...that is indeed what is "Important" as you say!!! :applause:

 

[Yeshua1]

:jesus::thumbs:Ah....so, then, you are a somewhat Molinistic Arminian like me!!!!!...welcome to the fold!!!! I should have realized that we agreed on these things. :thumbsup: And, Yes...that is indeed what is "Important" as you say!!! :applause:

Actually am a Infralapsarianism holding calvinist, but we still are brothers in christ!

 

[convicted1]

:jesus::thumbs:Ah....so, then, you are a somewhat Molinistic Arminian like me!!!!!...welcome to the fold!!!! I should have realized that we agreed on these things. :thumbsup: And, Yes...that is indeed what is "Important" as you say!!! :applause:

Better watch it there, Brother. Them could be fightin' words. He just might break out the boxing gloves, or better yet, a Louisville slugger....LOL

 

[MorseOp]

So why are you here, since apparently you already have arrived at all knowledge of all the various views and approaches to all these complex matters of soteriology?

I like to discuss things other than just Arminianism vs. Calvinism; that is why I am here on the BB.

I rejected Calvinism, in part, because it failed to answer this question... at least to my satisfaction. Can you?

I do not believe you are looking for a real answer; thus no one can answer to your satisfaction. That was the motivating reason behind my prior post.

I leave you to your discussion. Have fun.