Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Deu 16:5 “You are not allowed to slaughter the Passover within any of your gates which יהוה your Elohim gives you,But you yourself stated,
So clearly you are not observing the Passover as was mandated by the Law, even though you are observing Sukkot. Are you aware that the Law even mandates those who are far away on a journey, or even unclean, that they must still observe the Passover?
"Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they are still to celebrate the LORD's Passover, (Numbers 9:10 [NIV])
So it has nothing to do with the existence of the temple or not, or whether you are near the temple or not, you must kill a lamb and eat it as commanded, otherwise you are in sin, because you yourself still believe that these commands must still be observed. However, we who are of greater belief, know that the Passover lamb has already been sacrificed,
Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. (1 Corinthians 5:7 [NIV])
Deu 16:5 “You are not allowed to slaughter the Passover within any of your gates which יהוה your Elohim gives you,
Deu 16:6 but at the place where יהוה your Elohim chooses to make His Name dwell, there you slaughter the Passover in the evening, at the going down of the sun, at the appointed time you came out of Mitsrayim.
We can celebrate passover, but not kill the lamb anywhere we please.
Greater belief does not equate to lawlessness. This is a grand delusion
Not observing passover is a sin to someone who doesn't observe it and is in covenant. Also, it is a sin not to keep the sabbath on the 7th day. Paul cannot change laws and if he tries, he is a false disciple. Paul never spoke against these things, however, and was only speaking against pharisaical man-made laws in how to observe them.Not observing a Passover if you know the Passover was fulfilled by Jesus Christ is not lawlessness, in fact, it is sin to judge someone who does not observe. And the same goes for a Sabbath, or any festival observation, for all these are shadows of future realities found in Jesus Christ. By my belief, along with Paul, we are persuaded otherwise and we are not in sin by not observing festivals nor Sabbaths,
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come;the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 [NIV])
I do not judge you for observing Festivals and Sabbaths, but I reprimand you for calling a brother "lawless" for having greater belief knowing that these are all but shadows. And so, going onto other matters than festivals and Sabbaths of the Law, tell me, you who Judaize, do you borrow? Do you borrow at interest? Do you pay into social security or any form of insurance? This is what the topic of this thread was originally about.
Not observing passover is a sin to someone who doesn't observe it and is in covenant. Also, it is a sin not to keep the sabbath on the 7th day. Paul cannot change laws and if he tries, he is a false disciple. Paul never spoke against these things, however, and was only speaking against pharisaical man-made laws in how to observe them.
The verse you quote cannot override the torah in any way. Yeshua states this also in Matt 5.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
Being stubborn is a good thing when the Word backs up the points each time and the reasoning of man doesn't try to change the unchangeable. Absolutely on all counts. Borrowing is not a sin. If you read my response elsewhere it is the sin of lending at interest to a poor brother:I will no longer argue this matter with you, because you are stubborn and will not listen that the Passover lamb has already been sacrificed. Now, answer my other questions I asked you, and let us see how righteous you are, do you borrow? Do you borrow at interest? Do you pay into social security or any form of insurance?
Being stubborn is a good thing when the Word backs up the points each time and the reasoning of man doesn't try to change the unchangeable. Absolutely on all counts. Borrowing is not a sin. If you read my response elsewhere it is the sin of lending at interest to a poor brother:
Exo_22:25 “If you do lend silver to any of My people, the poor among you, you are not to be like one that lends on interest to him. Do not lay interest on him.
That isn't talking about borrowing, its talking about lending. And not just lending, but lending AT INTEREST. Whoever lends at interest is sinning, just as whoever borrows at interest is sinning. And even if you are not borrowing at interest, you are still sinning by borrowing from those who are not of God, hence,
For the LORD your God will bless you, as he promised you, and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow, and you shall rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over you. (Deuteronomy 15:6 [ESV])
1. You are adding to the Word by twisting it to say borrowing is a sin which it does not.
2. We are not the nation of Israel whom YHVH was to pour His blessings on. The verse you use pertains to that nation, not to the individual level.
It is is a sin, for it is written, "you shall not borrow", and Paul also said, "be indebted to no one". If a poor man in the assembly needs to borrow, he may borrow from one of his fellow brothers in the Lord, but he may not borrow from ungodly men and unbelievers among the Gentiles and nations, which the Torah forbids. Clearly you are not in obedience to the Torah, even though you are so eager to observe shadow commands, yet you discard other matters of the Law, engaging in wickedness by borrowing, and probably borrowing at interest, which is also forbidden.
1. "You shall not borrow" is talking to the nation of Israel (not individual).
2. This statement was based upon the blessing that would be poured out and not as a restriction.
3. Paul cannot add to or take away from torah but was giving good advice
4. You are judging incorrectly based on false understanding of a verse
5. Borrowing is not wickedness and is allowed for
6. Borrowing at interest is nowhere prohibited. Show me the verse if so.
You are trying to loophole the command to not borrow as something that does not pertain to individuals to justify your own wicked indebted lifestyle. And not only do you borrow contrary to the Torah, but you borrow at interest! How is it not sin if you are causing someone to sin by lending to you at interest! You are just as guilty as the other for participating in an act that is considered an abomination,
engages in usury… Will he live? He will not! Because he has done all these abominable deeds he will certainly die. He will bear the responsibility for his own death. (Ezekiel 18:13 [NETBIBLE])
…charges interest. Will he live? He will not! Because he has done all these abominable deeds he will certainly die. He will bear the responsibility for his own death. (Ezekiel 18:13 [NETBIBLE])
You are no different than the Judaizers who are so keen at doing works of Law, but discarding other matters of Law. You call me lawless for not observing commands that have been clearly identified as shadows by Jesus Christ and the apostles, yet here you are committing abominations against the Law you think you so diligently follow.
I have shown there is no torah command against it, yet you call it wickedness. That is falsely speaking the Word.
You also failed to post the whole context of the passage in Ez:
Eze 18:12 if he has oppressed the poor and needy, has committed robbery, he does not return a pledge, has lifted his eyes to the idols, or did abomination,Ezekiel is again referencing the previous verse I showed you about oppressing the poor:
Eze 18:13 if he has lent on interest or taken increase – shall he live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, he shall certainly die, his blood is upon him.
Exo_22:25 “If you do lend silver to any of My people, the poor among you, you are not to be like one that lends on interest to him. Do not lay interest on him.A judaizer is one who tries to get others to go under a man-made system of phraisaical rule. Keeping written law is what scripture says to do over and over and not be under another system. It is lawless to not keep the law, it is also lawless to add or take away from the Words like you are trying to do with borrowing.
and here:
Lev 25:35 ‘And when your brother becomes poor, and his hand has failed with you, then you shall sustain him, and he shall live with you, like a stranger or a sojourner.
Lev 25:36 ‘Take no interest from him, or profit, but you shall fear your Elohim, and your brother shall live with you.
Passages for borrowing:
Exo_22:25 “If you do lend silver to any of My people, the poor among you, you are not to be like one that lends on interest to him. Do not lay interest on him.How do these verses fit into your paradigm? Is it time to rethink things?
Deu_15:8 for you shall certainly open your hand to him and certainly lend him enough for his need, whatever he needs.
Deu_23:20 “To a foreigner you lend at interest, but to your brother you do not lend at interest, so that יהוה your Elohim might bless you in all that you put your hand to in the land which you are entering to possess.
Deu_24:10 “When you lend your brother a loan, do not go into his house to get his pledge.
Deu_24:11 “Stand outside, and let the man to whom you lend bring the pledge out to you.
Mat_5:42 “Give to him who asks of you, and from him who wishes to borrow from you, do not turn away.
Luk_6:34 “And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive back, what favour have you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.
Luk_6:35 “Rather, love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting none in return. And your reward shall be great, and you shall be sons of the Most High. Because He is kind to the thankless and wicked ones.
Where are you getting this stuff? Have you read the torah?You are reading these passages concerning borrowing from FELLOW Israelites, or believers ONLY, to mean you can borrow from GENTILES AND UNBELIEVERS, which is prohibited by the Law. And not just borrowing, but BORROWING AT INTEREST, for LENDING AT INTEREST IS FORBIDDEN. Not only is he who is lending at interest sinning, but also he who is borrowing at interest, because you are CAUSING a person to sin by lending to you at interest.
Where are you getting this stuff? Have you read the torah?
Deu_23:20 “To a foreigner you lend at interest, but to your brother you do not lend at interest, so that יהוה your Elohim might bless you in all that you put your hand to in the land which you are entering to possess.Can you provide even one verse that says it is a sin to borrow? You are creating man-made dogma
Because God permitted the Israelites to lend at interest to Gentiles so that the Israelites may rule over nations and have an advantage over them, hence,
The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.
The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. (Deuteronomy 28:12-13 [NIV])
But the Israelites were not permitted to lend to each other at interest, which includes BORROWING AT INTEREST, EITHER FROM FELLOW ISRAELITES OR FROM GENTILES. I have already provided two scriptures that you are ignoring concerning borrowing, WITH OR WITHOUT INTEREST,
For the LORD your God will bless you, as he promised you, and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow, and you shall rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over you. (Deuteronomy 15:6 [ESV])
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. (Romans 13:8 [BSB])
Clearly you do not understand the word of the Lord, and have twisted scripture to suit your lifestyle of debt, which is very common in American culture, yet is wicked to God, because the American financial system is based on interest and usury. You boast about observing festivals of the Law, yet you break the Law,
You who boast in the Law, do you dishonor God by breaking the Law? (Romans 2:23 [BSB])
I will say nothing further to you, because you are stubborn, and refuse to come to understanding concerning the shadows of the Law, and also regarding your own sin concerning borrowing at interest against the Law.