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The ME fallacy's false inheritance
- Thread starter 2 Timothy2:1-4
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Lacy Evans
New Member
DHK said:My mistake: I'll just refer to you as a bunch of MEer's insted.
You can tatoo it on my FO'-HEAD!!:laugh:
M. E.
I plead guilty
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I read posts on Luke chapter 15 lately.
First of all, Luke 15:1-2 telling us, when Christ came to sat with publicans and sinners and they heard him. Then, the Pharisees criticized on Christ for eating with sinners.
Then, Christ telling the parables to them, included Pharisees, in the way, he rebuked Pharisees for judging. Christ's points of the parables talking about compassion with love. Earlier, Christ told them, he come not to call people righteous, but come to repentance. Also, he came to saved sinners.
Pharisees have no compassion upon people, they were selfish, and being legalized, always to judging each other, filled with pride.
The first of two parables focus on leaders include us as fishmen. That he shows us, the example of his compassion and burden over sinners, do not neglect them. The first parable of Luke 15:3-7 talk about shepherd and sheep.
Notice, all of three parables speak of "lost". Three parables telling us, all of them(sheep, coin, and son) were belong to their first estate or place. Then, afterward, they astray away become lost.
Luke 15:3-7 tells us, the shepherd already own all 100 sheep in the fence at the first place. When, the shepherd allows 100 sheep out of the gate, and play over the field, later, he calls all sheep gathering return into the gate. He counts every sheep while they are entering the gate. Because, the number of sheep are consider too many. That why, he have to be carefully count all sheep, to make sure, not missing one. When after he counts them all, and he realizes there is one missing sheep shy of 100 sheep. So, he have to looking to find a lost sheep over the field. Show that Christ have compassion over lost people. Pharisees have no compassion, they are heart cold. They thinking of self-center, don't care what people need.
When a shepherd finds a lost sheep, he rejoices and bring sheep home safety. Notice Luke 15:7 says, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, WHICH NEED NO REPENTANCE."
Christ's point is, all 99 "just" people which not need to be repentance, because they already repented earlier. In other word, that lost sheep was already 'just' at the first place, because, shepherd already own ALL 100 sheep("just").
What if suppose, shepherd realizes after he counts all sheep, there is a missing sheep, but he decides to let lost sheep go, and not go after look find it. Then, a sheep is remain lost forever. Same with leaders(pastors), when a pastor realizes that there is a missing member at his church. But, he decides not go to visit member's house, he neglect or ignore his member, just let member go. Too many pastors neglect his members, that why too many members never been come to their church again afterward.
Late Dr. Jack Hyles claims and boast that his church owns 100,000 memberships, that was back in early 1990's. I have his book - "The Hyles Church Manual" written in year 1968. In the back of book, he claims, his church owns 63,000 membeships. My question is, where are all 100,000 members now? Most of them are already astray away.
Easy Believism soul winning method is dangerous. Also, many IFB churches are lack on discipleship.
Emmanuel Baptist Church of Pontiac, MI. It claims there were nearly 5,000 members. Now, there is about 100 to 200 people. Where are they?
Forest Hills Baptist Church of Decatur, Georgia, (sold building, moved to Stone Mountian) was claim, have 7,900 people. Now, they almost all gone.
Many IFB churches are gone in wrong method of evangelism. Leave thousands, and thousands scattered away. That is sad.
That why, Christ teaches us, as leaders are responsible for not neglect their people, if someone is being astray, have to draw them return back and save their mulititude of sins - James 5:19-20.
Too many leaders failed to encourage them back to the Lord, many of them are already "lost" are on the way to everlasting fire.
Second parable of Luke 15:8-10. At the first place, the lady already own all ten coins. One day, she decides go to the store, so, she is about to take all coins with her. But, she realizes, there is a missing coin. She is burdens over a lost coin. So, she cleaning over the floor, looking for a lost coin. She refuses to give up on lost coin. When, she finds a missing coin, she rejoices. Christ said, "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth."
Christ's point was, suppose if a lady decides give up, not looking over a coin, then, a coin is remain lost forever. In other word, what if a person refuses to repent, then, a person is remain lost forever in the fire.
Third parable of Luke 15:11-32 is a very important passage that we need to understand what Christ was talking about.
Father owns two sons. A younger son is already belong to Father's. Son was at his father's place in the first place. One day, when a younger son decides to leave his place. In his freewill decision, telling his father, want to get inheritance(will) from his father. Father lets his young son go. Father doesn't force his younger son to stay. Same with God, he never force us to go.
I strongly disagree with 'irresistible grace' according to Calvinism's doctrine. Bible teaches us, all individual CAN resist against the grace of God or Holy Spirit's guide. Any individual CAN astray away from God.
Notice, Christ used sheep as illustration. Sheep's character shows, that it is easily become lost and not know where to go. We notice sheep in the world today, they are easily astray away and lost. Same with ANY individual, even, a Christian CAN astray away in their own freewill decision.
Luke 15:11-32 teaching us, Father still have compassion over his younger son, while he is astray away far away. He doesn't give up on his son.
Notice this passage telling us, father doesn't force his son to return back. Same with God, He doesn't force us to return back to him, evven, if we are backslidding. He allows us to have our own choice with decision.
While a young son is in deep troubles and very misery. Son says, "And am no more worthy to be called thy son"= Luke 15:19. This verse tells us, Christ tells us when a person become astray away from the Lord, person is no longer belong to God's child as son in Rev. 21:7, IF a person fails to overcome them in the lifetime, will not be God's child!
When a son decides to get up, and return to his father, show that he repents. While he is on the way to his father's place. His father is waiting for his son returns, when he finally see his son coming, he immediately run to his son, and hug him. Show that Christ have compassion over lost people and backslidden Christians.
This is refer to 2 Peter 3:9 tells us, God is long-suffering over us, of his love and compassion, do not want us all go into perish, but want us to repentance. That means. God is patience with any individual who is astray away, is waiting on anyone who is repent back. Or, other way, if a person never repentance, then person shall be perish in the everlasting fire.
Christ says, "thy brother was dead, and is alive again, and was lost, and is found." - Luke 15:32. Christ tells us, during in the midst time, a son was astray, he is remain dead and lost. What if suppose, he never return back, then, he is remain dead and lost forever.
Securists agrued on these, they saying, these are speak of physical, not spiritual. This is the type of securists' intepreting. They are error.
Christ used parables of Luke 15 with object lesson for apply to the spiritual meaning. Christ tells us, what if we astray away from the Lord, and never repent back to Lord beyond at our death(physical), then our spiritual shall be remain lost(salvation) in the everlasting fire.
The context of Luke say nothing of millennial exclusion or unconditional security salvation either. Because, there is no 'a thousand years' find anywhere in this passage. This passage is clear telling us, if a person turn astray from the Lord, and never return back to Lord again, is remain lost forever.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
First of all, Luke 15:1-2 telling us, when Christ came to sat with publicans and sinners and they heard him. Then, the Pharisees criticized on Christ for eating with sinners.
Then, Christ telling the parables to them, included Pharisees, in the way, he rebuked Pharisees for judging. Christ's points of the parables talking about compassion with love. Earlier, Christ told them, he come not to call people righteous, but come to repentance. Also, he came to saved sinners.
Pharisees have no compassion upon people, they were selfish, and being legalized, always to judging each other, filled with pride.
The first of two parables focus on leaders include us as fishmen. That he shows us, the example of his compassion and burden over sinners, do not neglect them. The first parable of Luke 15:3-7 talk about shepherd and sheep.
Notice, all of three parables speak of "lost". Three parables telling us, all of them(sheep, coin, and son) were belong to their first estate or place. Then, afterward, they astray away become lost.
Luke 15:3-7 tells us, the shepherd already own all 100 sheep in the fence at the first place. When, the shepherd allows 100 sheep out of the gate, and play over the field, later, he calls all sheep gathering return into the gate. He counts every sheep while they are entering the gate. Because, the number of sheep are consider too many. That why, he have to be carefully count all sheep, to make sure, not missing one. When after he counts them all, and he realizes there is one missing sheep shy of 100 sheep. So, he have to looking to find a lost sheep over the field. Show that Christ have compassion over lost people. Pharisees have no compassion, they are heart cold. They thinking of self-center, don't care what people need.
When a shepherd finds a lost sheep, he rejoices and bring sheep home safety. Notice Luke 15:7 says, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, WHICH NEED NO REPENTANCE."
Christ's point is, all 99 "just" people which not need to be repentance, because they already repented earlier. In other word, that lost sheep was already 'just' at the first place, because, shepherd already own ALL 100 sheep("just").
What if suppose, shepherd realizes after he counts all sheep, there is a missing sheep, but he decides to let lost sheep go, and not go after look find it. Then, a sheep is remain lost forever. Same with leaders(pastors), when a pastor realizes that there is a missing member at his church. But, he decides not go to visit member's house, he neglect or ignore his member, just let member go. Too many pastors neglect his members, that why too many members never been come to their church again afterward.
Late Dr. Jack Hyles claims and boast that his church owns 100,000 memberships, that was back in early 1990's. I have his book - "The Hyles Church Manual" written in year 1968. In the back of book, he claims, his church owns 63,000 membeships. My question is, where are all 100,000 members now? Most of them are already astray away.
Easy Believism soul winning method is dangerous. Also, many IFB churches are lack on discipleship.
Emmanuel Baptist Church of Pontiac, MI. It claims there were nearly 5,000 members. Now, there is about 100 to 200 people. Where are they?
Forest Hills Baptist Church of Decatur, Georgia, (sold building, moved to Stone Mountian) was claim, have 7,900 people. Now, they almost all gone.
Many IFB churches are gone in wrong method of evangelism. Leave thousands, and thousands scattered away. That is sad.
That why, Christ teaches us, as leaders are responsible for not neglect their people, if someone is being astray, have to draw them return back and save their mulititude of sins - James 5:19-20.
Too many leaders failed to encourage them back to the Lord, many of them are already "lost" are on the way to everlasting fire.
Second parable of Luke 15:8-10. At the first place, the lady already own all ten coins. One day, she decides go to the store, so, she is about to take all coins with her. But, she realizes, there is a missing coin. She is burdens over a lost coin. So, she cleaning over the floor, looking for a lost coin. She refuses to give up on lost coin. When, she finds a missing coin, she rejoices. Christ said, "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth."
Christ's point was, suppose if a lady decides give up, not looking over a coin, then, a coin is remain lost forever. In other word, what if a person refuses to repent, then, a person is remain lost forever in the fire.
Third parable of Luke 15:11-32 is a very important passage that we need to understand what Christ was talking about.
Father owns two sons. A younger son is already belong to Father's. Son was at his father's place in the first place. One day, when a younger son decides to leave his place. In his freewill decision, telling his father, want to get inheritance(will) from his father. Father lets his young son go. Father doesn't force his younger son to stay. Same with God, he never force us to go.
I strongly disagree with 'irresistible grace' according to Calvinism's doctrine. Bible teaches us, all individual CAN resist against the grace of God or Holy Spirit's guide. Any individual CAN astray away from God.
Notice, Christ used sheep as illustration. Sheep's character shows, that it is easily become lost and not know where to go. We notice sheep in the world today, they are easily astray away and lost. Same with ANY individual, even, a Christian CAN astray away in their own freewill decision.
Luke 15:11-32 teaching us, Father still have compassion over his younger son, while he is astray away far away. He doesn't give up on his son.
Notice this passage telling us, father doesn't force his son to return back. Same with God, He doesn't force us to return back to him, evven, if we are backslidding. He allows us to have our own choice with decision.
While a young son is in deep troubles and very misery. Son says, "And am no more worthy to be called thy son"= Luke 15:19. This verse tells us, Christ tells us when a person become astray away from the Lord, person is no longer belong to God's child as son in Rev. 21:7, IF a person fails to overcome them in the lifetime, will not be God's child!
When a son decides to get up, and return to his father, show that he repents. While he is on the way to his father's place. His father is waiting for his son returns, when he finally see his son coming, he immediately run to his son, and hug him. Show that Christ have compassion over lost people and backslidden Christians.
This is refer to 2 Peter 3:9 tells us, God is long-suffering over us, of his love and compassion, do not want us all go into perish, but want us to repentance. That means. God is patience with any individual who is astray away, is waiting on anyone who is repent back. Or, other way, if a person never repentance, then person shall be perish in the everlasting fire.
Christ says, "thy brother was dead, and is alive again, and was lost, and is found." - Luke 15:32. Christ tells us, during in the midst time, a son was astray, he is remain dead and lost. What if suppose, he never return back, then, he is remain dead and lost forever.
Securists agrued on these, they saying, these are speak of physical, not spiritual. This is the type of securists' intepreting. They are error.
Christ used parables of Luke 15 with object lesson for apply to the spiritual meaning. Christ tells us, what if we astray away from the Lord, and never repent back to Lord beyond at our death(physical), then our spiritual shall be remain lost(salvation) in the everlasting fire.
The context of Luke say nothing of millennial exclusion or unconditional security salvation either. Because, there is no 'a thousand years' find anywhere in this passage. This passage is clear telling us, if a person turn astray from the Lord, and never return back to Lord again, is remain lost forever.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Hope of Glory
New Member
DHK said:
And I have done so at great length. He and I had quite a lengthy discussion about it, in between npetreley's fabrications and vituperations.
But next, after being asked to throw out the parables, we're asked to throw out the books of Matthew and Hebrews.
Tell ya what. I have the perfect Bible for KD's. It's one I used in an object lesson. If the entire Bible is about being spiritually saved or not, I took a Bible (it was an old one, don't worry), I ripped out every page except for one. Then, I ripped out that page, and I was left with two verses. That's all you need for how to be saved forever and ever.
I was left holding a tiny scrap that contained Acts 16:30-31.
So, the KD's want to start eliminating parables, entire books... What do you want us to elminate next?
Doesn't John 18:36 blow away the whole idea of rewards in an earthly kingdom?
36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
and Luke 17:20-21:
20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
Seems like Jesus goes to a lot of trouble to point out that the kingdom He preached was NOT an earthly kingdom.
Looks to me like ME or MI or MK or whatever we call it is denied by the King's own words.
Les
36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
and Luke 17:20-21:
20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
Seems like Jesus goes to a lot of trouble to point out that the kingdom He preached was NOT an earthly kingdom.
Looks to me like ME or MI or MK or whatever we call it is denied by the King's own words.
Les
1. Hope of Glory and I have had discussion on some of the issues of what is commonly called ME, but whether or not the discussion was purely Pauline, or whether we discuss things like a believer's torture for a 1000yrs in hell, that I cannot recall.
2. What I do recall is what is meant by Acts 16:31 and some portions of 1Corinthians where Paul uses the Greek words apoleia, apollumi.
3. But of the other tenets of the so-called ME doctrine being Pauline, maybe that part of the discussion eluded me.
2. What I do recall is what is meant by Acts 16:31 and some portions of 1Corinthians where Paul uses the Greek words apoleia, apollumi.
3. But of the other tenets of the so-called ME doctrine being Pauline, maybe that part of the discussion eluded me.
Hope of Glory
New Member
lbaker said:
That actually blows the KD's beliefs out of the water, for we are the ones who are espousing a literal and future Kingdom.
It has eluded me as well. I remember someone made a request that an ME'r go verse by verse through one (or more) of the epistles of Paul to prove that he taught ME, but it was never done to my knowledge.TCGreek said:
To be fair, it could have been posted and all of us just missed it in all the confusion, so it would be helpful if HoG would post it again since he said he was the one who did it in the first place.
Sometimes we have to repeat ourselves because posts get overlooked.
HoG? Repost?
Rufus_1611
New Member
I'm not meaning to be nit picky here but the doctrine of "Kingdom Accountability" or "Accountability" is not commonly called "millenial exclusion". Like "Christian" or "Baptist" this expression is used primarily by its detractors such as the "Kingdom Deniers" or the "EIREITAD" folks.TCGreek said:
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
James_Newman
New Member
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:
Jesus' kingdom is of the world to come.
James_Newman
New Member
lbaker said:
That could be understood any number of ways that don't require throwing out every verse that shows a literal kingdom with Christ reigning on this earth. But folks would rather grasp on to a 'literal' interpretation of 'within us' and 'spiritualize' the rest of the bible. That is very strange to me.
Lacy Evans
New Member
lbaker said:
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Just how bigga' ole boy are you any how, Brother Les?
Jesus said the KoH was like a "mustard seed." Do we "reign?" "If you have faith of a mustard seed," what? You reign!Rufus_1611 said:
Yes, sir! I have a "soul winner's crown" waiting for me in heaven!! Phil 4:1, 1Thes 2:19
I do consider myself to have mastered this life to some extent THROUGH CHRIST!
And you?
skypair
Rufus_1611
New Member
That's nice but where is this kingdom currently? How do you see that parable as being a promise that you will reign immediately rather than reigning when "thy kingdom come".skypair said:
Cool, but as you say it is waiting for you. It's not on your melon now.
I haven't mastered this life. I'm still growing and I'm still running the race.
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