"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

[Charlie24]

lol, You can dismiss it if you want to. But you will not come to truth the way you are doing it! I could agree with you, but then we both would be wrong

Don't feel like arguing this stuff over and over.

It's not good for the spirit to continue all the time in these arguments.

 

[Zaatar71]

Don't feel like arguing this stuff over and over.

It's not good for the spirit to continue all the time in these arguments.

okay, I hear you!

 

[Dave...]

Excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Romans 8:29:

"This regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification."

Hey Ken

We always assume that predestination must be from spiritual death to spiritual life, as in unbeliever to believer. It can easily also be used in the smaller context. God predestines lots of things. True OT believers were still in Adam and not yet alive in Christ. They had the Promises as a result of their faith, and died having not received them, thus the predestination. From the spiritual side of things, they were predestined from Adam with (OT) faith to Christ with (NT) faith, since they were already appointed to eternal life from their OT faith. All that the Father gives me I shall not lose one of them, except Judas. Keep in mind, the passage specifically says that they were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. That can be taken as meaning from unbeliever to believer, as it is traditionally understood, but also can be understood in the smaller context as from OT believer to Christ believer.

As was pointed out in the link, Romans 8:29 is clearly speaking of a specific people. I believe these people were Israel. There were promises made to both spiritual and physical Israel. But the spiritual Israel everyone is saved. Perhaps this would distinguish Romans 8:29 from Romans 11:2. We'll see.

Do you see what I mean? God could have foreknown them already because of their OT faith. They still were not conformed, or begun to be conformed to Christlikeness if they had not yet trusted in the Gospel message and became 'in Christ'. That's when they begin to be conformed to Christlikeness by the Spirit indwelling. The process of being perfected (Gal 3:2-3).

 

[kyredneck]

The Hebrew word in Ezekiel 20:36 translated as "pleaded" is hit'chanen (הִתְחַנֵּן). This word means to beg, implore, or plead for favor, and it's often used in a context of seeking grace or mercy.

Once again, can you provide an instance in the Exodus narrative where God begged, implored, pleaded, seeking ‘grace or mercy’?

I’m seeking scriptural narrative, not yours.

 

[Silverhair]

What you are describing is Omniscience, not biblical foreknowledge. If you cannot distinguish between the two, you will not have a roper understanding. You will repeat the same error over and over.

Do would seem you understand what those words means Z?

omniscience

noun

1. the quality or state of being omniscient.​
2. infinite knowledge.​

foreknowledge

noun

1. knowledge of something before it exists or happens; prescience.​

 

[Silverhair]

Not the way mt ASV reads:

Ezekiel Chapter 20

35​	and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face.
36​	Like as I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I enter into judgment with you, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Can you give an example from the Exodus account of God actually pleading?

It appears to me that you were selective of the version you used.

Just as you are selective in the version that you have used KY.

Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Eze 20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. KJV

e 20:35 "And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face.
Eze 20:36 "Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD. NKJV

 

[Silverhair]

The Hebrew word in Ezekiel 20:36 translated as "pleaded" is hit'chanen (הִתְחַנֵּן). This word means to beg, implore, or plead for favor, and it's often used in a context of seeking grace or mercy.

@Charlie24 you have to remember that for the calvinist the word of God is only understood by cherry picked verses.

It seems the KY and Z cannot accept the truth of God's word in Ezekiel in regard to Exodus.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24 you have to remember that for the calvinist the word of God is only understood by cherry picked verses.

It seems the KY and Z cannot accept the truth of God's word in Ezekiel in regard to Exodus.

No, I'm afraid they won't. It's a dagger in the heart of Sovereign Grace.

 

[Charlie24]

Once again, can you provide an instance in the Exodus narrative where God begged, implored, pleaded, seeking ‘grace or mercy’?

I’m seeking scriptural narrative, not yours.

Throughout the journey in the wilderness God continuously made promises to the people in what He would do for them if they would obey Him.

We are not given a narrative of all that happened in the wilderness, just as we are not given a narrative of all that Christ did in the Gospels.

Verses like these give us an idea of what Isaiah was speaking of. God is here asking the Hebrew children to obey Him and tells them what they will receive in doing so. God does this many time in the wilderness.

Exod. 19:3-6

"And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

 

[Charlie24]

Throughout the journey in the wilderness God continuously made promises to the people in what He would do for them if they would obey Him.

We are not given a narrative of all that happened in the wilderness, just as we are not given a narrative of all that Christ did in the Gospels.

Verses like these give us an idea of what Isaiah was speaking of. God is here asking the Hebrew children to obey Him and tells them what they will receive in doing so. God does this many time in the wilderness.

Exod. 19:3-6

"And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

When God made this promise to the Hebrew children, He knew they would perish in the wilderness in unbelief. But yet He still stived with them in much long-suffering.

Paul tells us they did not enter into His rest, and tells us to be careful in having a heart of unbelief if they did not enter in because of unbelief, you will not either.

 

[Zaatar71]

Do would seem you understand what those words means Z?

omniscience

noun

1. the quality or state of being omniscient.​
2. infinite knowledge.​

foreknowledge

noun

1. knowledge of something before it exists or happens; prescience.​

I know what you looked up, yes.....But have you not seen that in the people it is a special foreknowledge of persons, not some thing, but rather SOME ONE......WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW.....NOT WHAT HE DID FOREKNOW. Take another look and see the biblical usage.

 

[atpollard]

foreknowledge

noun

1. knowledge of something before it exists or happens; prescience.​

Romans 8:29 [ESV] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

It is not a “something” that God foreknew, it is a “someone” (“those”).
God had a relationship (knowing someone) before they (we) existed. Before we were, God loved us and predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Since “love” in Hebrew connotes actions (not mere emotion), it is this “relationship before we existed” that drives … [Rom 8:30] “those whom he predestined he also called … he also justified … he also glorified.”

 

[Zaatar71]

Romans 8:29 [ESV] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

It is not a “something” that God foreknew, it is a “someone” (“those”).
God had a relationship (knowing someone) before they (we) existed. Before we were, God loved us and predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Since “love” in Hebrew connotes actions (not mere emotion), it is this “relationship before we existed” that drives … [Rom 8:30] “those whom he predestined he also called … he also justified … he also glorified.”

Well said! This is a great comfort for real believers.

 

[Zaatar71]

@Charlie24 you have to remember that for the calvinist the word of God is only understood by cherry picked verses.

It seems the KY and Z cannot accept the truth of God's word in Ezekiel in regard to Exodus.

Hey Sh, every biblical Cal on hair has handled your posts without much effort. You can keep trying, but the truth will stand, no matter how you misunderstand it.

 

[Silverhair]

I know what you looked up, yes.....But have you not seen that in the people it is a special foreknowledge of persons, not some thing, but rather SOME ONE......WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW.....NOT WHAT HE DID FOREKNOW. Take another look and see the biblical usage.

I know what the bible says Z. You have chosen to view His foreknowledge as causative where I see His foreknowledge as just what it says. He knew beforehand those that would freely trust in Him.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 8:29 [ESV] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

It is not a “something” that God foreknew, it is a “someone” (“those”).
God had a relationship (knowing someone) before they (we) existed. Before we were, God loved us and predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Since “love” in Hebrew connotes actions (not mere emotion), it is this “relationship before we existed” that drives … [Rom 8:30] “those whom he predestined he also called … he also justified … he also glorified.”

What is God's purpose @atpollard?

That those that would repent and trust in Him would be saved.

God is Omniscient and thus has full foreknowledge of all who would freely trust in Him. Those that trust in Him are predestined to be conformed to the image of His son.

All are called but not all will respond so it is only those that respond that will be justified and glorified.

 

[Silverhair]

Hey Sh, every biblical Cal on hair has handled your posts without much effort. You can keep trying, but the truth will stand, no matter how you misunderstand it.

Yes the truth of God's word will stand which is why I do not follow your man-made calvinist theory.

 

[Zaatar71]

I know what the bible says Z. You have chosen to view His foreknowledge as causative where I see His foreknowledge as just what it says. He knew beforehand those that would freely trust in Him.

This is why you lack understanding. Several have presented truth to you, You do not want to learn, so stay ignorant of Divine truth.
You do not know what you are looking at.

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes the truth of God's word will stand which is why I do not follow your man-made calvinist theory.

You will give account of yourself unto God, as I will. I am okay with it.
rom14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[Silverhair]

This is why you lack understanding. Several have presented truth to you, You do not want to learn, so stay ignorant of Divine truth.
You do not know what you are looking at.

Your understanding has to filter the word of God through the calvinist theory from the 4th century.

My truth comes from the word of God as found in scripture, no filter needed.