The "Message" Bible ???

Kiffin · Dec 12, 2003

Good point Scott. I did not realize that.

I stand corrected.

The Message I think like all paraphrases is one that should always be checked by a good translation and one should remember when reading it that they are reading a PARAPHRASE and not a TRANSLATION. If you keep that in mind and see the Message as a suppliment and one for light and casual reading rather than a study Bible, then I think one will not have a problem.

Spirit and Truth · Dec 12, 2003

Scott:

The problem is that in the passage mentioned, Antichrist isn't to be found, even in the literal version. So why make a false comparison?

S&T:

I made my comparisons by biblical definition of what this person will be and do:

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.
15 Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand), Dan. 11:31; 12:11
16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;

Daniel 11

36 And the king shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god; he shall even speak marvelous things against the God of gods and shall prosper until the fury is completed. For that which is decreed shall be done.
37 He shall not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women; yea, he will not come to any god. For he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his place he shall honor the god of forces, and he shall honor a god whom his fathers did not know, with gold and silver and with precious stones, and desirable things.

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
6 And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4

It appears that anarchist is a poor choice, as he will not necessarily be against governments [man made] but against God and His Law, Jesus, and His people. I think anti-christ or is an excellent descriptive term, while anarchist is confusing.

Scott:

Seems like Peterson doesn't have a hard time with the word Antichrist, huh?

S&T:

I only wish that he was consistant.

Scott:

Aren't there more important things for you to do instead of working (many would say failing) to disredit a translation that God is using to win the hearts of young people across the nation?

S&T:

First of all Scott, it would be greatly appreciated if you and another person who I have been dialoging with would state your case in a singular sense without trying to act like you have the validation of the forum in this discussion.

Secondly, are you saying that I should ignore my scriptural mandate to prove all things and to be a watchman if I think an error has occured that could confuse others? I have a friend who got saved after a bad LSD experience.Should we then give LSD to people hoping that they might get saved? Others have been saved when being held at gunpoint and thinking that their life was over. Would that be a good evangelism tool as well? People get saved in all sorts of situations,so I am sure that they can get saved reading a message. My concern is that some new believers are using this translation ONLY to learn the Gospel. Scary, isn't it.

ScottEmerson · Dec 12, 2003

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:
I made my comparisons by biblical definition of what this person will be and do:

You said by implication that Peterson should have used the word AntiChrist instead of Anarchist. The word used by Paul means one who denies the law. That's what an anarchist is.

It appears that anarchist is a poor choice, as he will not necessarily be against governments [man made] but against God and His Law, Jesus, and His people. I think anti-christ or is an excellent descriptive term, while anarchist is confusing.

Antichrist would have been an excellent descriptive term except for one thing - Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, did not use the term. So why read into it? Isn't it much more honest to translate based upon the words instead of trying to read into a text and re-write it? Peterson made the right choice here, and studying the Greek word used, anarchist is a dead-on choice, according to Thayers and Strongs. Antichrist is no where to be seen in the text at all. That is why no version of the Bible uses AntiChrist in the text.

I only wish that he was consistant.

Compare the use of Antichrist in, say, the NIV and compare it to the use in the Message. How many times does the NIV use it where the Message does not? Zip, as far as I can tell. Zero. None. He is at least as consistent as any of the other translators that are out there.

First of all Scott, it would be greatly appreciated if you and another person who I have been dialoging with would state your case in a singular sense without trying to act like you have the validation of the forum in this discussion.

Considering the lack of support you have had on this thread, it is clear that those who have responded are on my side. That's the validation right there.

Secondly, are you saying that I should ignore my scriptural mandate to prove all things and to be a watchman if I think an error has occured that could confuse others?

I'm saying you need to re-read that section about proving all things. We haven't been given a license to do anything at all costs. There have been many, many people who see that the Message is a good translation, especially for young adults. These are men and women who have gone far beyond either of us in our word studies. The problem is that it appears to many here that you are going outside the Spirit to condemn a translation that God is using to win hearts and minds for Him. That's the problem we have.

I have a friend who got saved after a bad LSD experience.Should we then give LSD to people hoping that they might get saved? Others have been saved when being held at gunpoint and thinking that their life was over. Would that be a good evangelism tool as well? People get saved in all sorts of situations,so I am sure that they can get saved reading a message.

You are looking at isolated instances. Fruits of the Message have appeared across the nation, if not the world. It's like comparing croutons with a New York Strip Steak.

My concern is that some new believers are using this translation ONLY to learn the Gospel. Scary, isn't it

It seems as though your concern goes much farther than that. How many people have you met who use the Message only? What is your proof for the assertions that you make?

Spirit and Truth · Dec 12, 2003

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:

I made my comparisons by biblical definition of what this person will be and do:

Scott:

You said by implication that Peterson should have used the word AntiChrist instead of Anarchist. The word used by Paul means one who denies the law. That's what an anarchist is.

S&T:

An anarchist by definition is one that is against established government. Are we living in a godly country Scott? All one needs to do is go to the movies, turn on the tv, read the newspapers, or walk out into the street and the answer is evident. According to the opinions of many, the anti-christ will try to bring about order initially and establish his own government. And then there is this:

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need for it to be written.
2 For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord, as a thief in the night, so it comes.
3 For when they say, Peace and safety! Then suddenly destruction comes upon them, like the travail to the one having babe in womb, and not at all shall they escape.

S&T reiterates from his last post:

It appears that anarchist is a poor choice, as he will not necessarily be against governments [man made] but against God and His Law, Jesus, and His people. I think anti-christ is an excellent descriptive term, while anarchist is confusing.

Scott stated:

Antichrist would have been an excellent descriptive term except for one thing - Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, did not use the term. So why read into it?

S&T:

Because the bible interprets itself through all 66 books. The anti christ is not anti government, he is anti Gods Law, Christ, and all who are His.

Scott:

Isn't it much more honest to translate based upon the words instead of trying to read into a text and re-write it?

S&T:

Exactly my complaint with "as above, so below" and other occultic terminology that you took exception to.

Scott:
Peterson made the right choice here, and studying the Greek word used, anarchist is a dead-on choice, according to Thayers and Strongs. Antichrist is no where to be seen in the text at all.

S&T:

Neither is anarchist, but the other passages by definition supports anti-christ while they do not support anarchist.

S&T stated earlier:

First of all Scott, it would be greatly appreciated if you and another person who I have been dialoging with would state your case in a singular sense without trying to act like you have the validation of the forum in this discussion.

Scott answered:

Considering the lack of support you have had on this thread, it is clear that those who have responded are on my side. That's the validation right there.

S&T:

Do you need validation Scott? Your appearance of trying to be a cyber bully is so dissapointing for me to see from a Christian man your age. Please get out of your emotions and back to the point of the discussion.

Scott:

These are men and women who have gone far beyond either of us in our word studies. The problem is that it appears to many here that you are going outside the Spirit to condemn a translation that God is using to win hearts and minds for Him. That's the problem we have.

S&T:

First of all Scott, you know nothing of my studies, so that is an assumption on your part. Secondly, please work the plural address into a singular as requested previously. Thank you.

Scott:

I have a friend who got saved after a bad LSD experience.Should we then give LSD to people hoping that they might get saved? Others have been saved when being held at gunpoint and thinking that their life was over. Would that be a good evangelism tool as well? People get saved in all sorts of situations,so I am sure that they can get saved reading a message.

Scott:

You are looking at isolated instances. Fruits of the Message have appeared across the nation, if not the world. It's like comparing croutons with a New York Strip Steak.

and:

It seems as though your concern goes much farther than that. How many people have you met who use the Message only? What is your proof for the assertions that you make?

S&T:

I had a report of a Baptist pastor who was using the message as his teaching bible for the congregation. A family in the assembly contacted me to ask questions about the translation. The pastor has now separated from his wife and left his position. Did the message cause this? Highly unlikely, but I could site it as proof, just as you have. I was told just the other day, that another pastor is using the message in his congregation of over 200 and many of the members now own it also. I acquired my copy from one of the members who decided that it was not a good translation.

Bottom line...it is being used as a main translation, and it is not strong enough to do that in my opinion.

Spirit and Truth · Dec 12, 2003

Many these days want to make God in their image:

http://www.theologyonline.com/newgod/

I particularly liked this section:

"Other New Features Added"

4] Open Environment-Cliches can be added easily with "Plugin" technology.

There is often times truth found in humor.

ScottEmerson · Dec 13, 2003

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:
An anarchist by definition is one that is against established government.

That is only one of the definitions. Another one found in modern translations is "one who is against the law." The Greek word is anamos, which means "one who is against the law." Anarchist is a dead-on translation. I'm sorry you can't see that this is so.

Are we living in a godly country Scott? All one needs to do is go to the movies, turn on the tv, read the newspapers, or walk out into the street and the answer is evident. According to the opinions of many, the anti-christ will try to bring about order initially and establish his own government. And then there is this:

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need for it to be written.
2 For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord, as a thief in the night, so it comes.
3 For when they say, Peace and safety! Then suddenly destruction comes upon them, like the travail to the one having babe in womb, and not at all shall they escape.

It appears that anarchist is a poor choice, as he will not necessarily be against governments [man made] but against God and His Law, Jesus, and His people. I think anti-christ is an excellent descriptive term, while anarchist is confusing.

Antichrist is not in the writings of Paul here, and that is the main point. Paul uses "anamos," which is literally, "one who is against the law," which is exactly what modern dictionaries have as the definition for anarchist.

Because the bible interprets itself through all 66 books. The anti christ is not anti government, he is anti Gods Law, Christ, and all who are His.

Translators use the Biblical Greek and Hebrew texts to come up with the best translations. For them to substitute "Antichrist" instead of the more accurate "anarchist" is to read into the text something that isn't there. That's just not good translation and anyone familiar with hermeneutics would agree. That's basic stuff. Antichrist is nowhere to be found in the passage, so we cannot in good conscience translate it as such.

Neither is anarchist, but the other passages by definition supports anti-christ while they do not support anarchist.

The modern definition of anarchist, according to Webster's most recent version of the dictionary, matches up exactly with the ancient meaning of anamos. What other issues can there be?

Do you need validation Scott? Your appearance of trying to be a cyber bully is so dissapointing for me to see from a Christian man your age. Please get out of your emotions and back to the point of the discussion.

I don't need validation, nor am I bullying you. I am merely showing that your position here is in such minority that I, in your shoes, would really be questioning the veracity of my quest against the Message.

First of all Scott, you know nothing of my studies, so that is an assumption on your part. Secondly, please work the plural address into a singular as requested previously. Thank you.

Then share your length of studying. It has been pointed out from earlier that your claim of knowing Hebrew was sketchy in this thread, but I'd love to hear. What is your background in the studies of language? For the record, I have three years of study in Greek and Hebrew from a nationally accredited university - Samford University. Just so it's all out, of course.

I had a report of a Baptist pastor who was using the message as his teaching bible for the congregation. A family in the assembly contacted me to ask questions about the translation. The pastor has now separated from his wife and left his position. Did the message cause this? Highly unlikely, but I could site it as proof, just as you have.

So would you be willing to state that the Message caused the divorce and still be honest? Really honest? I can say without question nor worry that people's lives have been changed directly from reading the gospel through the translated Bible of the Message. They would echo that. I doubt that the pastor who was separated would attribute his leaving to the book. Would you be willing to state such?

I was told just the other day, that another pastor is using the message in his congregation of over 200 and many of the members now own it also. I acquired my copy from one of the members who decided that it was not a good translation.

And what does this prove?

Spirit and Truth · Dec 13, 2003

Scott stated:

For the record, I have three years of study in Greek and Hebrew from a nationally accredited university

S&T:

I am very pleased to hear this Scott. In light of this new information I must now issue the same challenge to you that I issued to another person on this thread. Please post your study utilizing the Koine Greek texts that demonstrates textual support for the translation of "as above, so below". Once we can get past this first one, I have a few more that I will present for textual evaluation as well. You are welcome to enlist your university professor if you like.

This has turned out to be an interesting thread Scott. The idea for this thread came about because of a discussion that I had with various Christians that were questioning the validity of the message paraphrase and their curiousity as to what would be the denomination that would most favor it. I stated [mistakenly] that it was highly unlikely that anyone from a fundemental faith [Baptist] would use this as their main translation, and that I personally felt that the one incident of a Baptist pastor teaching his congregation using it was merely a fluke.I brought this crowd of "witnesses" with me to the forum not as members, but merely to observe the dialog. Both them and I have found this to be an intersting study, and we have all gained much understanding from this. I thank you and others for your participation.

The reason that you have so vehemently defended this paraphrase is quite obvious Scott. Perusing the internet, I found you listed as a participant on another Christian forum. In your Bible version preference list, you listed Greek first, and then the "Message" as your primary english translation followed by the NIV and then the TNIV. You also listed your occupation as:

Minister of Middle School Students

From the information above, I can only assume that you also teach these young Chrisitans who are at the age where they should be learning the fundamental truth of the scriptures by utilizing this "translation". I can now understand why my critique of this version has agitated you so, as you have much invested in it's usage. To admit that it is a weak translation and often confusing, and that it does in fact have occultic terms with no textual evidence of derivation would also to admit possible error on your part, especially as a teacher of others. I do, however, believe that your heart and intent are good, so I will ask you now to consider all of the points that I have stated remembering that teachers are and will be held to a higher standard of judgement. All I ask is that you consider what I have said.

P.S.

To anyone reading the message version of the Lord's pray around midnight on Christmas eve:

I would like you to know that as you read the phrase "as above, so below", you will be reading it in unison with satanists, wiccans, and other "esoteric" religions wordwide as this is one of their high un-holy days and the phrase is used in their ceremony.

ScottEmerson · Dec 13, 2003

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:
I am very pleased to hear this Scott. In light of this new information I must now issue the same challenge to you that I issued to another person on this thread. Please post your study utilizing the Koine Greek texts that demonstrates textual support for the translation of "as above, so below". Once we can get past this first one, I have a few more that I will present for textual evaluation as well. You are welcome to enlist your university professor if you like.

Considering the standards of Eugene Peterson mentioned in his preface, "as above, so below," isn't a bad selection of words. Ouranos literally means "heights above," so Peterson decides on a paralle construction - as above, so below. I don't have a problem with this. What else do you have?

This has turned out to be an interesting thread Scott. The idea for this thread came about because of a discussion that I had with various Christians that were questioning the validity of the message paraphrase and their curiousity as to what would be the denomination that would most favor it. I stated [mistakenly] that it was highly unlikely that anyone from a fundemental faith [Baptist] would use this as their main translation, and that I personally felt that the one incident of a Baptist pastor teaching his congregation using it was merely a fluke.I brought this crowd of "witnesses" with me to the forum not as members, but merely to observe the dialog. Both them and I have found this to be an intersting study, and we have all gained much understanding from this. I thank you and others for your participation.

And what have you found? Have you seen that the Message isn't as bad as you thought?

The reason that you have so vehemently defended this paraphrase is quite obvious Scott. Perusing the internet, I found you listed as a participant on another Christian forum. In your Bible version preference list, you listed Greek first, and then the "Message" as your primary english translation followed by the NIV and then the TNIV. You also listed your occupation as:

The Message is a wonderful translation to preach from. The students understand it quite well. I also use the NLT, the NASB, and the KJV. Glad to see you've been looking up on me. I haven't posted there in awhile, and haven't changed my profile since I joined. You'll also notice that I most certainly did not say that the Message is my primary translation - you're reading in a little there.

Minister of Middle School Students

It's a little better than that. I am a minister of students, which means that I teach middle school, high school, and college students.

From the information above, I can only assume that you also teach these young Chrisitans who are at the age where they should be learning the fundamental truth of the scriptures by utilizing this "translation". I can now understand why my critique of this version has agitated you so, as you have much invested in it's usage.

I wouldn't go as far to say that it has agitated me at all. Your critique has been rather weak, and somewhat comical. I also wouldn't go as far as to say that I have "invested" a lot in the usage.

To admit that it is a weak translation and often confusing, and that it does in fact have occultic terms with no textual evidence of derivation would also to admit possible error on your part, especially as a teacher of others.

I assure you, if I did think that it had occultic leanings (which it doesn't) or textual evidence of derivation (which you have said it should have done, even though it has been shown that it didn't), I wouldn't use it. Because it lacks these things, I feel completely okay in its usage.

I do, however, believe that your heart and intent are good, so I will ask you now to consider all of the points that I have stated remembering that teachers are and will be held to a higher standard of judgement. All I ask is that you consider what I have said.

Considered and summarily dismissed. That was easy.

To anyone reading the message version of the Lord's pray around midnight on Christmas eve:

I would like you to know that as you read the phrase "as above, so below", you will be reading it in unison with satanists, wiccans, and other "esoteric" religions wordwide as this is one of their high un-holy days and the phrase is used in their ceremony.

And for anyone who uses the words "the", "and", "but," and "earth," you will be saying the same thing as them as well. I trust that God understands our hearts, even though it is apparent that others on this board do not.

-------

So you not see that you have dismissed any argument and decided to go about attacking character and bringing personal attacks into the discussion. That's quite sad, and shouldn't belong on the board, I don't think.

Spirit and Truth · Dec 13, 2003

Thanks Scott for your participation in this topic. Your input is greatly appreciated. Any further discussion with you on this topic would be fruitless, and the purpose of this thread has pretty much been fullfilled. If you think that my criticism is a lone voice, I suggest that you visit the sites listed below, as they have drawn similar conclusions from their study. Let me state once again that I do not personally endorse these sites, and they are posted to show others conclusions that are similar in nature only. You may also want to consider letting your students and the head of FBC view this discussion thread in it's complete form [all six pages] as well.

Thank you

http://watch.pair.com/message.html

http://watch.pair.com/message2.html

http://watch.pair.com/message3.html

http://www.crossroad.to/Bible_studies/Message.html

http://www.lighthousetrails.com/themessage.htm

ScottEmerson · Dec 13, 2003

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:
[QB] Thanks Scott for your participation in this topic. Your input is greatly appreciated. Any further discussion with you on this topic would be fruitless, and the purpose of this thread has pretty much been fullfilled. If you think that my criticism is a lone voice, I suggest that you visit the sites listed below, as they have drawn similar conclusions from their study. Let me state once again that I do not personally endorse these sites, and they are posted to show others conclusions that are similar in nature only. You may also want to consider letting your students and the head of FBC view this discussion thread in it's complete form [all six pages] as well.

Considering our senior associate pastor preaches predominantly from the Message, I am in full confidence that they would agree with me. There are fringe groups all over the net, and those sites are prime examples of just that - fringe groups. And to be fair, the last of your links attributes what it writes to the fourth. I'll side with people like Packer and Graham, as well as my pastors, when it comes to the Message.

Spirit and Truth · Dec 14, 2003

Scott:
Considering our senior associate pastor preaches predominantly from the Message, I am in full confidence that they would agree with me.

S&T:
So much for what many have said about the message only being a supplementary translation .
Once again, I ask that you refer him to this thread.

Scott:
There are fringe groups all over the net, and those sites are prime examples of just that - fringe groups.

S&T:
Labeling someone does not even closely resemble refuting someones footnoted evidence. If even ten percent of what they have presented is accurate, then there is a problem with the translation. When the "world" flocks to anything as they have with this paraphrase, examine it closely.

Spirit and Truth · Dec 14, 2003

http://watch.pair.com/message3.html#chronology

C. Mystical Terms, Key Words Found in "The Message" (See Appendix I)
"When confronted with legitimate concerns about her beliefs, L'Engle charges that those who criticize her books have 'obviously never read them'. Instead, continues her rebuttal, they are fundamentalists looking for 'key words' and attacking her out of fear." (Smith, p.xi)
AS ABOVE, SO BELOW
"The mystical belief 'of the secret societies were, and indeed are, based on the Hermetic maxim 'As above - so below' which teaches that the natural world is a material reflection of the spiritual. It forms the esoteric basis for the Ancient Egyptian Mysteries, Gnosticism, Esoteric Christianity, the Cabbala, the Hermetic tradition, alchemy and societies such as the Templars, Freemasons and Rosicrucians. (Howard, Occult Conspiracy, p.170-1)
"The whole universe is the great world, the macrocosm; its parts are small universes in themselves, microcosms. Such a microcosm is man, who is in himself an image of the universe and a perfect being. But the great universe is likewise a man, and as it is 'god', God has a human form." (Fox, p.213, quoting Otto Rank, "Art and Artist", p.114-15)
BREAKTHROUGH
"New Age Dominican priest Matthew Fox calls Eckhart his favorite mystic and claims to actually communicate with this dead monk. Fox wrote a book called 'Meditations with Meister Eckhart: A Centering Book' for all those daring to make the mystical, spiritual journey ... Fox quotes Eckhart as saying there is a four-fold path to God, the last being something 'deep' called 'breakthrough', where one begins to hear voices." (Smith, p.156)
CENTER/CENTER DOWN
"Psychologist Richard Foster teaches that contemplative prayer requires 'centering down', a New Age term that means to quiet the mind and body to complete silence and stillness. It is defined as re-creating silence...'recollecting of ourselves until we are a unified whole' ... In reality, it is a practice of shutting down one's mind to rational thought and opening it up to demonic influences and emotional responses." (Smith, p.114)
CONTEMPLATION
"When contemplation appears ... the Subject ceases to perceive himself in ... his general consciousness. He is raised above himself .... In this state ... the mystic is conscious of being in immediate relation with God Himself; of participating in Divinity." (Underhill, p.330)
"The methods of contemplative prayer are similar in all traditions. Sit quietly, preferably comfortably .... breathe slowly, rhythmically, deeply. Fit the words of your mantra to this rhythm. And don't be afraid of the word, 'mantra'." (Smith, p.109, quoting Madeleine L'Engle, 'And It Was Good", p.135-36)
"There are too many stories of mystics being able to move hundreds of miles through the power of contemplation for us to be able to toss them aside." (Smith, p.17, quoting Madeleine L'Engle, 'Walking on Water: Reflections on Faith and Art, p.86)
DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL
"The most intense period of that great swing-back into darkness which usually divides the 'first mystic life', or Illuminative Way, from the 'second mystic life', or Unitive Way, is generally a period of utter blankness and stagnation, so far as mystical activity is concerned. The 'Dark Night of the Soul', once firmly established, is seldom lit by visions or made homely by voices ... The once-possessed power of .. contemplation now seems wholly lost." (Underhill, p.381)

Note: Underhill has a whole chapter on "The Dark Night of The Soul", p.380-412.

DEEP CONSCIOUSNESS/WORSHIP
Note: See BREAKTHROUGH above
GREAT WORK
"De Coppens says that the divinity of man through spiritual initiation is the 'Great Work' that is the central objective of the 'Ageless Wisdom'." (Marrs, Dark Secrets, p.124, quoting Peter Roche de Coppens' forward to F. Aster Barnswell, "The Meaning of Christ for Our Age," p.xix-xxxi.)
"Aleister Crowley ... taught that the Great Work, the 'transformation of humanity', would be accomplished in the last decade of the 20th century." (Naprs, Cipcie af Intrigue, p.230)
INSIDE OUT
"Probably (Larry) Crabb's best known and most popular book is 'Inside Out', published by NavPress ... The very title 'Inside Out' suggests the Freudian notion of the unconscious." (Meisel, p.1) Note: Also see PANTHEISM below
INTERDEPENDENCE
Note: See DECLARATION OF UNITY OF THE WORLD, Section IV.B.2. #10
KNOW THYSELF
"...the Arabian alchemist Abipipi:...'O man, know thyself! In thee is bid the treasure of treasures'." (Kingsland, p.86, quoting Blavatsky, Isis Unveiled, Vol.2, p.617)
"A human being partakes of all emanations or planes of reality at once without knowing it until he or she achieves cosmic consciousness ... This is the esoteric meaning of know thyself, which post-Freudian people are apt to understand as merely making the unconscious conscious, as psychological awareness ... But the ultimate meaning of 'know thyself' seems to be 'know thy Self'" (Moffatt, p.344)
Note. See TRUE/REAL SELF below
PRESENCE Of GOD
"Practicing the 'Presence of God' is actually a form of Zen Meditation." (Smith, p.120)
SACRED SITES/PLACES
"Joseph Campbell described the human sacrifices of the Aztecs and then called Mexico City, where these incredible horrors occurred, a 'sacred site'." (Smith, p.139, quoting Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers, "The Power of Myth")
SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES
"Out of the traditions of Quakerism, Richard Foster and William L. Vaswig, co-directors of Renovare, are selling books and holding conferences for the spiritually anemic', offering spiritual disciplines well-known to the pagan world to induce deeper spirituality." (Smith, p.119)
TRUE/REAL SELF
"In the creation tradition, all people are mystics. Mysticism is not elitist; it touches the true self in each one of us." (Fox, p.58)
"The mystic in us ... is unleashing and creating ... the true self. Co-creation happens here, for the birth of the mystic is a birth with God of what is divine and truly oneself. It is the outward birth of the image of God from within. Each self is a unique mirror of divinity..." (Fox, p.64)
"A co-creator is one who births the mystic self or allows it to be born. In allowing the 'true self" or mystic to be born one is already involved in a deep process of birthing the Cosmic Christ.," (Fox, p.201) Note. See also DIVINITY OF MAN below.
D. Doctrines of Mysticism found in "The Message"
ANDROGYNY
"Primordial man. The early mystics in erred from Genesis 1:26 - 'Let us make man in our image' - that the physical Adam was created on the pattern of a spiritual Adam that existed in the celestial world ... This became part of the later mystical view of the cosmos in which everything on earth had its counterpart in the realm of the Godhead." (Rabinowicz, "Adam Kadmon", p.8)
Note: See AS ABOVE, SO BELOW above
"Adam Kadmon, or primordial man - ... This being is sexless or bisexual..." (Hastings,"Kabbala", p.626)
"The entire world process is necessary to shape the Perfect Man so that the original state of androgyny (male and maiden at the same time) will be restored." (Eliade, "Gnosticism", p.568)
DIRECT REVELATION
"... all the Gnostic sects ... claimed to possess a secret doctrine, coming to them directly from Jesus Christ, different from that of the Gospels and Epistles and superior to those communications, which in their eyes, were merely exoteric." (Pike, p.542)
"...the Camisards ... like the Cathars ... stressed the supremacy of gnosis, or direct knowledge, over faith ..." (Baigent, p.431)
"Led by the rise in the popularity of the monastic lifestyle, contemplative prayer has found its way into the Christian community, providing instructions an 'how to hear God's voice' - for those who are seeking 'deeper truths'. Proponents have even managed to come up with a biblical foundation for the quest: Adam and Eve talked with God in the Garden; Cain, Abel, Noah, Abraham, and the prophets all heard from God; and Paul was taught by the Lord Himself. Therefore, since Christ has been resurrected and has not stopped 'speaking, teaching, and acting', then surely He communicates with His people today in an 'audible voice'." (Smith, p.111)
DIVINE OR1GIN Of MAN
"Mysticism demands a return to our origins... Meister Eckhart ... invites us to 'return to God and the core, the soil, the ground, the stream and the source of the Godhead'." (Fox, p.55)
DIVINITY OF MAN
"Robert Browning in his poem, 'Paracelsus'...'There is an inmost centre in us all, Where truth abides in fulness...' Now that 'inmost centre' is, in the teaching of the Ancient Gnosis, the real SELF; the eternal, immortal, divine self which is one with the universal SELF, commonly called God. Thus the root teaching of this Ancient Wisdom at all times has been the divine nature of Man; and what was taught in the inner schools of the Mysteries... was the method of achieving this supreme knowledge in a practical manner; that is to say the attainment of god-like character and powers. Every man is potentially a god, however feeble may be his powers at the present time. At root he is God." (Kingsland, p.20) Note. See also TRUE/REAL SELF above.
PANENTHEISM
"Healthy mysticism is panentheistic. This means that it is not theistic, which envisions divinity 'out there' or even 'in here' in a dualistic manner that separates creation from divinity. Panentheism means 'all things in God and God in all things'. This is the way mystics envision the relationship of world, self, and God ... Panentheism melts the dualism of inside and outside..." (Fox, p.57) Note: Also see INSIDE OUT above.
POSITIVE THINKING
"' ..anything the human mind can believe, the human mind can achieve.'...This seductive idea lies behind the Human Potential movement, which is another name for the New Age movement." (Hunt, p.19, quoting Napolean Hill, "Grow Rich with Peace of Mind," p.176)
SACRED SEX
"According to Foster ... Juliana of Norwich showed him the depths of Divine Love ... of' a somewhat sensual and 'intimate' relationship with God." (Smith, p.129)
"And also our good Lord revealed that it is very greatly pleasing to him that a simple soul should come naked, openly and familiarly. And loving I pray to thee O God, give me yourself for you are enough for me." "Therefore we may ask from our Lover to have all of him that we may desire. For it is our nature to long for him, and it is his nature to long for us. In this life we can never stop loving him." (Foster, Devotional Classics, p.71, quoting Juliana of Norwich, "Revelations of Divine Love")
"Her writings have been called the most perfect fruit of later medieval mysticism." (Foster, Devotional Classics, p.68)
SELF-SACRIFICE
"...the Christian mystic has to be prepared to follow his faith to the point where he can look at the possible imminent end of Homo sapiens as an event of joy." (Kirby, p-17)
"Christians ... know that a man must die to himself before he can ... be born again in spirit ... It may well be that mankind as a whole must be crucified, even unto death, before coming into its inheritance ... Christians can say with Teilhard de Chardin, that death itself is beneficent, the only way to grow beyond forms which have served their limited purpose .... but with the serious and the worried, they look upon the possible extermination of the human race secure in the knowledge that it could be but a prelude to the resurrection of the species." (Kirby, p.201-02)
"The intent is for men to die ... at the demand of his own soul. When man has reached a higher stage in evolution, with deliberation and definite choice of time, he will consciously withdraw from his physical body." (Bailey, "Death the Great Adventure," p.59)
UNIVERSAL SALVATION
Note: See beliefs of Madeleine L'Engle in Section V.B.5.e.

ScottEmerson · Dec 14, 2003

Yawn...

Breakthrough has several meanings, and the ones used in the message are found in 2 Kings 25:4 and Acts 15:3. Definitely no occultic meaning there.

Here is the verses with centered down in it: "Ezekiel 38:12 - And I'm going to plunder the place, march right in and clean them out, this rebuilt country risen from the ashes, these returned exiles and their booming economy centered down at the navel of the earth." How is this occultic?

Contemplation - 1 Timothy 2:2 Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble contemplation. Occultic? Hardly.

Dark night of the soul is nowhere to be found in the message

Deep consciousness - 1 Peter 1:17
You call out to God for help and he helps--he's a good Father that way. But don't forget, he's also a responsible Father, and won't let you get by with sloppy living. Your life is a journey you must travel with a deep consciousness of God. Still not in any way occultic!

Great work - Judges 2:7
The people worshiped GOD throughout the lifetime of Joshua and the time of the leaders who survived him, leaders who had been in on all of GOD's great work that he had done for Israel. Yep. This is sure occultic! Haha!

The phrase "inside out" does not appear in the Message.

Interdependence - Romans 1:14
Everyone I meet--it matters little whether they're mannered or rude, smart or simple--deepens my sense of interdependence and obligation. I never knew that the occultists had a monopoly on this word.

Know thyself does not appear in the message

Presence of God appears in many more translations than the message

Sacred sites does not appear in the Message.

Spiritual disciplines have been around much, much longer than the occultists. Besides. Not mentioned in the Message.

Androgyny does not appear in the Message.

We can go on and on, but it is necessary? And one wonders why these sites don't match up well with Truth. Half of the words or phrases mentioned are actually absent from the Message, with the other ones having to take such a HUGE leap of logic it baffles the mind.

Here's one - we should ban the KJV, because the occultic Eagles, in their song "Hotel California" talk about the "Beast." Beast is also seen in occultic writings. Therefore the KJV is an invalid translation.

Oh, please!

Spirit and Truth · Dec 14, 2003

Scott stated:

We can go on and on, but it is necessary? And one wonders why these sites don't match up well with Truth. Half of the words or phrases mentioned are actually absent from the Message, with the other ones having to take such a HUGE leap of logic it baffles the mind.

S&T:

As I said earlier, if ten percent is accurate, then this translation needs to be re-evaluated. If you had clicked on the link at the top of the page, you would have found this:

"THE MESSAGE" COMPARED TO THE KING JAMES VERSION

Note: Please keep Dr. Letis' remark in mind when reading the following verses - see section IV.A.4., as well as the dictionary terms in section VI. THE TEMINOLOGY USED IS THE POINT Of THIS STUDY! There are other doctrinal errors in the following verses, which have not been addressed in this study. Mystical terminology is highlighted in larger print.

A. Mystical/occult terms and key words used in "The Message"

AS ABOVE, SO BELOW

Matt.6:10

KJB - Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven

Message - Set the world right; do what's best - AS ABOVE, S0 BELOW

BREAKTHROUGH

Acts 11:18

KJB - Then Hath god also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Message - God has BROKEN THROUGH to the other nations, opened them up to Life!

CENTER/CENTER DOWN

II Cor.5:14

KJB - For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

Message - Christ's love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do. Our firm decision is to work from this FOCUSED CENTER: One man died for everyone.

II.Pet.1:19

KJB - We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts

Message - We couldn't be more sure of what we saw and heard - God's glory, God's voice. The prophetic Word was confirmed to us. You'll do well to keep FOCUSING on it. Its the one light you have in a dark time as you wait for daybreak and the rising of the MORNING STAR in your hearts.

CONTEMPLATION

I.Ti.2:1-2

KJB - I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Message - The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so that we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble CONTEMPLATION,

DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL

Lk.22:53

KJB - When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no handsagainst me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Message - Day after day I've been with you in the Temple and you've not so much as lifted a hand against me. But do it your way - it's a DARK NIGHT, a dark hour.

"DEEP" CONSCIOUSNESS/WORSHIP

I.Pet.1:17

KJB - pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

Message - Your life is a journey you must travel with a DEEP CONSCIOUSNESS of God.

Rev.4:2

KJB - And immediately I was in the spirit: ...

Message - I was caught up at once in DEEP WORSHIP.

GREAT WORK

Phil. 1:6

KJB - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Message - There has never been the slightest doubt in my mind that the God who started this GREAT WORK in you would keep at it and bring it to a flourishing finish on the very day Christ Jesus appears.

INSIDE OUT

Matt. 17:2

KJB - And was transfigured before them: ...

Message - His appearance changed from the INSIDE OUT, right before their eyes

Mk. 1:8

KJB - I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Message - His baptism - a holy baptism by the Holy Spirit - will change you from the INSIDE OUT.

Lk. 3:16

KJB - ...he shall baptize you with the Holy ghost, and with fire.

Message - The main character in this drama ... will ignite the kingdom life, a fire, the Holy Spirit within you, changing you from the INSIDE OUT.

Ro. 12:2

KJB - ...but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind ....

Message - ...fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

INTERDEPENDENCE

Ro. 1:14

KJB - I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

Message - Everyone I meet - it matters little whether they're mannered or rude, smart or simple - deepens my sense of INTERDEPENDENCE and obligation.

KNOW THYSELF

I Jn.2:27

KJB - But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie ...

Message - Christ's anointing teaches you the truth on everything you need to KNOW ABOUT YOURSELF and him, uncontaminated by a single lie.

PRESENCE OF GOD

Acts 22:17

KJB - And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; Message- After I was back in Jerusalem and praying one day in the Temple, lost in THE PRESENCE OF GOD,

Rev. 20:11

KJB - And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them

Message - I saw a Great White Throne and the One Enthroned. Nothing could stand before or against the PRESENCE, nothing in Heaven, nothing on earth.

SACRED SITES/PLACES

Lk.7:16

KJB - And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God ...

Message - They all realized they were in a PLACE Of HOLY MYSTERY, that God was at work among them.

SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES

Acts 2:46

KJB - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple ...

Message - They followed a daily DISCIPLINE of worship in the Temple..,

I.Ti .4:8

KJB - For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things ...

Message - Workouts in the gymnasium are useful, but a DISCIPLINED LIFE in God is far more so ...

TRUE/REAL SELF

Matt.5:44-45

KJB - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven ...

Message - When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your TRUE SELVES, your God-created selves

Lk. 12:2

KJB - There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

Message - You can't keep your TRUE SELF hidden forever; before long you'll be exposed.

Jn. 1:12

KJB - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Message - But whoever did want him, who believed he was who he claimed and would do what he said, He made to be their TRUE SELVES, their child-of-God selves.
B. Mystical/occult doctrines found in "The Message"
Note: There are many more occult doctrines in "The Message", but these have been limited to correspond to the doctrines found in the dictionary section - VI.

ANDROGYNY

Matt.19:6

KJB - Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

Message - Because God created this ORGANIC UNION OF THE TWO SEXES, no one should desecrate his art by cutting them apart.

Mk. 10:6

KJB But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Message In the original creation, God made MALE AND FEMALE TO BE TOGETHER.

I Ti.2:15

KJB - Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing ...

Message - On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, REVERSING EVE.

BIBLE - NON-LITERAL INTERPRETATION

Matt.22:46

KJB - And no man was able to answer him a word.

Message - That stumped them, LITERALISTS that they were.

DIRECT REVELATION

I Cor. 2:13

KJB - Which things we also speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Message - We didn't learn this by reading books or going to school; we learned it from God, who taught us PERSON-TO-PERSON through Jesus, and WE'RE PASSING IT ON TO YOU IN THE SAME FIRSTHAND WAY.

Gal .1 :12

KJB - For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Message - I got it straight from God, received the Message DIRECTLY from Jesus Christ.

Heb. 1:2

KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son ...

Message - Recently he spoke to us DIRECTLY through his Son.

DIVINE ORIGIN/DIVINITY OF MAN

Heb. 2:11

KJB - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Message - Since the One who saves and those who are saved have a COMMON ORIGIN, Jesus doesn't hesitate to treat them as family ...

I . Jo 2:22

KJB - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ

Message - So who is lying here? It's the person who denies that Jesus is the DIVINE Christ. (Note: compare I.Jn.3:2)

PANENTHEISM/UNITY

Eph.4:6

KJB - One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in YOU ALL

Message - One God and Father of all, who rules over all, works through all, and IS PRESENT IN ALL

Eph.4:15

KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ

Message - God wants us to grow up, to know the whole truth and tell it in love - like CHRIST IN EVERYTHING.

POSITIVE THINKING

Matt.9:29

KJB - Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Message - He touched their eyes and said, "BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE."

SACRED SEX

Mk.12:25

KJB - For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Message - After the dead are raised up, we're past the marriage business. As it is with angels now, ALL OUR ECSTASIES AND INTIMACIES THEN WILL BE WITH GOD.

Mk. 12:30

KJB - And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; ...

Message - The Lord your God is one; so love the Lord your God with all your PASSION and prayer and intelligence and energy ....

Ro.8:23

KJB - And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves ...

Message - The Spirit of God is AROUSING US within.

I.Cor.6:16-18

KJB - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication.

Message - There's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "The two become one". SINCE WE WANT TO BECOME SPIRITUALLY ONE WITH THE MASTER, WE MUST NOT PURSUE the kind of sex that that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever - THE KIND OF SEX THAT CAN NEVER "BECOME ONE".

Phil 3:8

KJB - Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord ...

Message - I've dumped it all in the trash so that I could EMBRACE CHRIST AND BE EMBRACED BY HIM.

Phil.3:10

KJB - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Message - I gave up all that inferior stuff so that I could know Christ personally, experience his resurrection power, be a partner in his suffering, and GO ALL THE WAY WITH HIM to death itself.

I l.Pet.1:3

KJB - According to his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

Message - Everything that goes into a life of pleasing God has been miraculously given to us by getting to know personally and INTIMATELY, the One who invited us to God.

SELF-SACRIFICE

Lk.9:24

KJB - For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Message - Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your TRUE SELF.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION - Note. This is "the Message"

Jn.17.2

KJB - As thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him.

Message - You put him in charge of everything human So he might give real and eternal life to ALL in his charge.

Acts 10:35-36

KJB - But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousenss, is accepted with him.

Message - The Message he sent to the children of Israel - that through Jesus Christ everything is being put together again - well, he's doing it everywhere,among EVERYONE.

Acts 15:17

KJB - That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Message - ALL the pagan people included in what I'm doing.

I.Cor.15:22

KJB - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Message - Everybody dies in Adam; everybody comes alive in Christ.

II.Cor.5.15

KJB - And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Message - He included everyone in his death so that everyone could also be included in his life, a resurrection life, a far better life than people ever lived on their own.

Col .1:26-28

KJB - Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: ... which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Message - The mystery in a nutshell is just this: Christ is in you ... That is the substance of our Message.

Col .3:11

KJB - Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free. but Christ is all, and in all.

Message - From now on everyone is defined by Christ, EVERYONE IS INCLUDED IN CHRIST.
C. Mystical/occult/Masonic practices found in 'The Message'

NOTE: Many of the Masonic rites if initiation are derived from The Legend of Hiram Abiff

APRON

Lk.12:37

KJB - he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat ....

Message - He'll put on an APRON, sit them at the table, and serve them a meal,

CLIMB OUT OF COFFIN

Eph.5:14

KJB - Awake thou that steepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Message - Wake up from your sleep, CLIMB OUT OF YOUR COFFINS; Christ will show you the light.

ONE-EYED

Matt.5:29

KJB - And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee ...

Message - You have to choose to live ONE-EYED or else be dumped on a moral trash pile.

RIGHT HAND PULLED HE UP

Rev.1:17

KJB - and he laid his right hand upon me, saying onto me ...

Message - His RIGHT HAND PULLED ME UPRIGHT, his voice reassured me:

STONE MASONS THREW OUT

Matt.21:42

KJB - The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner ...

Message - The stone THE MASONS threw out is now the cornerstone

THIRD DEGREE

Mk.10:34

KJB - And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Message - Then they will hand him over to the Romans, who will mock and spit on him, GIVE HIM THE THIRD DEGREE, and kill him.

Lk. 18:33

KJB - And shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Message - Then after giving him the THIRD DEGREE, they will kill him.
D. Other occultic concepts
HAUNTING

Acts 1:20

KJB - For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation become desolate, and let no man dwell therein ...

Message - It's exactly what we find written in the Psalms: "Let his farm become HAUNTED. So no one can ever live there".

NEW WORLD ORDER

Eph.3:5

KJB - Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

Message - Only in our time has it been made clear by God's Spirit through his holy apostles and prophets of this NEW ORDER.

Rev.21:4

KJB - ...for the former things are passed away.

Message - ...all the first ORDER of things gone.

PUT HEX ON

Gal.3.1

KJB - O foolish Galatians, who bath bewitched you ...

Message - You crazy Galatians! Did someone PUT A HEX on you?

gb93433 · Dec 14, 2003

Originally posted by HomeBound:
My opinion would be this. Do you guys look for a new word of God everytime someone puts one out? Why are you still searching? Why not stick with what has worked for over 400 years now and allow it to be your Sword in this life. Yes, I am refering to the King James Bible. Love it and believe it.

I assume you read the apocrypha that was in the original KJV that has been deleted since. I much prefer the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic text that existed some 1600 years and more before that.

ScottEmerson · Dec 14, 2003

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:
Note: Please keep Dr. Letis' remark in mind when reading the following verses - see section IV.A.4., as well as the dictionary terms in section VI. THE TEMINOLOGY USED IS THE POINT Of THIS STUDY! There are other doctrinal errors in the following verses, which have not been addressed in this study. Mystical terminology is highlighted in larger print.

Still yawning over here. Similar words do not mean similar things. I can say, "Oh, my God," as I cry to him in prayer. Someone else can say the same words and use God's name in vain. Can you agree with that?

BREAKTHROUGH

Acts 11:18

KJB - Then Hath god also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Message - God has BROKEN THROUGH to the other nations, opened them up to Life!

Breakthrough - not broken through. Different terminology and completely different meaning.

CENTER/CENTER DOWN

II Cor.5:14

KJB - For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

Message - Christ's love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do. Our firm decision is to work from this FOCUSED CENTER: One man died for everyone.

Centered focus is different from the text here - different words and different meaning.

II.Pet.1:19

KJB - We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts

Message - We couldn't be more sure of what we saw and heard - God's glory, God's voice. The prophetic Word was confirmed to us. You'll do well to keep FOCUSING on it. Its the one light you have in a dark time as you wait for daybreak and the rising of the MORNING STAR in your hearts.

So even now focus is a bad word? lol

CONTEMPLATION

I.Ti.2:1-2

KJB - I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Message - The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so that we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble CONTEMPLATION,

And again, why is contemplation such a bad word again, especially in this context?

DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL

Lk.22:53

KJB - When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no handsagainst me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Message - Day after day I've been with you in the Temple and you've not so much as lifted a hand against me. But do it your way - it's a DARK NIGHT, a dark hour.

This in no way implies "dark night of the soul." What kind of intellectual dishonesty is this?

"DEEP" CONSCIOUSNESS/WORSHIP

I.Pet.1:17

KJB - pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

Message - Your life is a journey you must travel with a DEEP CONSCIOUSNESS of God.

This one is a little closer to having a point, but even here, the term in no way implies anything remotely occultic.

Rev.4:2

KJB - And immediately I was in the spirit: ...

Message - I was caught up at once in DEEP WORSHIP.

How else would a 21st century person describe "in the spirit?" Deep worship is a perfectly acceptable term here.

GREAT WORK

Phil. 1:6

KJB - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Message - There has never been the slightest doubt in my mind that the God who started this GREAT WORK in you would keep at it and bring it to a flourishing finish on the very day Christ Jesus appears.

COnsidering the Thayer's definition of agathos, great work is a great translation. Is the implication that if I notice my secretary having done super on a project and I say, "Great Work!" I am involved in the occult. This is humourous.

INSIDE OUT

Ro. 12:2

KJB - ...but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind ....

Message - ...fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

How is this a negative thing? Only the occultic use "inside out?" What a great translation!

INTERDEPENDENCE

Ro. 1:14

KJB - I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

Message - Everyone I meet - it matters little whether they're mannered or rude, smart or simple - deepens my sense of INTERDEPENDENCE and obligation.

Talked about this in the last post.

KNOW THYSELF

I Jn.2:27

KJB - But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie ...

Message - Christ's anointing teaches you the truth on everything you need to KNOW ABOUT YOURSELF and him, uncontaminated by a single lie.

Know thyself and know yourself are different terms. Nothing occultic here.

PRESENCE OF GOD

Acts 22:17

KJB - And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; Message- After I was back in Jerusalem and praying one day in the Temple, lost in THE PRESENCE OF GOD,

Rev. 20:11

KJB - And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them

Message - I saw a Great White Throne and the One Enthroned. Nothing could stand before or against the PRESENCE, nothing in Heaven, nothing on earth.

13 verses in the KJV have presence of God, so let's just dismiss this, shall we?

SACRED SITES/PLACES

Lk.7:16

KJB - And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God ...

Message - They all realized they were in a PLACE Of HOLY MYSTERY, that God was at work among them.

Sacred sites is a different phrase than what the message uses.

SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES

Acts 2:46

KJB - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple ...

Message - They followed a daily DISCIPLINE of worship in the Temple..,

I.Ti .4:8

KJB - For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things ...

Message - Workouts in the gymnasium are useful, but a DISCIPLINED LIFE in God is far more so ...

Dicipline also appears in the KJV, so this point is moot as well.

TRUE/REAL SELF

Matt.5:44-45

KJB - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven ...

Message - When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your TRUE SELVES, your God-created selves

How is this a negative thing again? How is this remotely occultic?

Lk. 12:2

KJB - There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

Message - You can't keep your TRUE SELF hidden forever; before long you'll be exposed.

What a great translation here! This is getting silly(-ier)!

Jn. 1:12

KJB - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Message - But whoever did want him, who believed he was who he claimed and would do what he said, He made to be their TRUE SELVES, their child-of-God selves.

See above.

ScottEmerson · Dec 14, 2003

ANDROGYNY

Matt.19:6

KJB - Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

Message - Because God created this ORGANIC UNION OF THE TWO SEXES, no one should desecrate his art by cutting them apart.

This is no way speaking of androgyny, and it's silly to imply such.

Mk. 10:6

KJB But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Message In the original creation, God made MALE AND FEMALE TO BE TOGETHER.

I Ti.2:15

KJB - Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing ...

Message - On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, REVERSING EVE.

See above.

BIBLE - NON-LITERAL INTERPRETATION

Matt.22:46

KJB - And no man was able to answer him a word.

Message - That stumped them, LITERALISTS that they were.

The Pharisees were literalists, and Jesus caught them on it several times. The Gospels are full of such challenges that Christ gave them.

DIRECT REVELATION

I Cor. 2:13

KJB - Which things we also speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Message - We didn't learn this by reading books or going to school; we learned it from God, who taught us PERSON-TO-PERSON through Jesus, and WE'RE PASSING IT ON TO YOU IN THE SAME FIRSTHAND WAY.

Great translation.

Gal .1 :12

KJB - For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Message - I got it straight from God, received the Message DIRECTLY from Jesus Christ.

He did get it directly from Jesus Christ. Was he not the one who spoke to him in Damascus?

Heb. 1:2

KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son ...

Message - Recently he spoke to us DIRECTLY through his Son.

He did. Why is this a problem again?

DIVINE ORIGIN/DIVINITY OF MAN

Heb. 2:11

KJB - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Message - Since the One who saves and those who are saved have a COMMON ORIGIN, Jesus doesn't hesitate to treat them as family ...

See above comment.

I . Jo 2:22

KJB - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ

Message - So who is lying here? It's the person who denies that Jesus is the DIVINE Christ. (Note: compare I.Jn.3:2)

Are you denying that Christ was divine?

PANENTHEISM/UNITY

Eph.4:6

KJB - One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in YOU ALL

Message - One God and Father of all, who rules over all, works through all, and IS PRESENT IN ALL

In you all is the exact same as present in you all. To deny the message is to deny the Biblical texts.

Eph.4:15

KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ

Message - God wants us to grow up, to know the whole truth and tell it in love - like CHRIST IN EVERYTHING.

All things and in everything - how are these different?

POSITIVE THINKING

Matt.9:29

KJB - Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Message - He touched their eyes and said, "BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE."

Complain about the message, you have to complain about the KJV.

SACRED SEX

Mk.12:25

KJB - For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Message - After the dead are raised up, we're past the marriage business. As it is with angels now, ALL OUR ECSTASIES AND INTIMACIES THEN WILL BE WITH GOD.

Ecstasies and intimacies do not mean sex, especially in the context, just as it doesn't mean it in the KJV.

Mk. 12:30

KJB - And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; ...

Message - The Lord your God is one; so love the Lord your God with all your PASSION and prayer and intelligence and energy ....

Passion and heart are synonymous in the 21st century. God doesn't want the physical organ that pumps our blood - he wants our passion.

Ro.8:23

KJB - And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves ...

Message - The Spirit of God is AROUSING US within.

Groan within = arousing us within. Same thing. Condemnation of one is condemnation of the other.

I.Cor.6:16-18

KJB - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication.

Message - There's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "The two become one". SINCE WE WANT TO BECOME SPIRITUALLY ONE WITH THE MASTER, WE MUST NOT PURSUE the kind of sex that that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever - THE KIND OF SEX THAT CAN NEVER "BECOME ONE".

Again, condemnation of one is condemnation of the other.

Phil 3:8

KJB - Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord ...

Message - I've dumped it all in the trash so that I could EMBRACE CHRIST AND BE EMBRACED BY HIM.

So a hug must be sexual? Hmmm...

Phil.3:10

KJB - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Message - I gave up all that inferior stuff so that I could know Christ personally, experience his resurrection power, be a partner in his suffering, and GO ALL THE WAY WITH HIM to death itself.

A silly belief here. All the way to death is the same as sex? Haha!

I l.Pet.1:3

KJB - According to his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

Message - Everything that goes into a life of pleasing God has been miraculously given to us by getting to know personally and INTIMATELY, the One who invited us to God.

So do you not think that God wants an intimate relationship with us? Intimacy doesn't mean sex.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION - Note. This is "the Message"

Jn.17.2

KJB - As thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him.

Message - You put him in charge of everything human So he might give real and eternal life to ALL in his charge.

And how is this universal salvation? All in his charge is pretty specific.

Acts 10:35-36

KJB - But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousenss, is accepted with him.

Message - The Message he sent to the children of Israel - that through Jesus Christ everything is being put together again - well, he's doing it everywhere,among EVERYONE.

Every nation in the KJV doesn't mean every specific nation, as those in the Americas didn't know. So again, condemnation of one is condemnation of the Greek text.

Acts 15:17

KJB - That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Message - ALL the pagan people included in what I'm doing.

Do we need to go through the uses of the word 'pas' in the Greek and "all" in the KJV?

I.Cor.15:22

KJB - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Message - Everybody dies in Adam; everybody comes alive in Christ.

What's the difference here? lol

II.Cor.5.15

KJB - And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Message - He included everyone in his death so that everyone could also be included in his life, a resurrection life, a far better life than people ever lived on their own.

So this verse denies limited atonement - so does the KJV version.

Col .1:26-28

KJB - Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: ... which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Message - The mystery in a nutshell is just this: Christ is in you ... That is the substance of our Message.

What's the problem here?

Col .3:11

KJB - Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free. but Christ is all, and in all.

Message - From now on everyone is defined by Christ, EVERYONE IS INCLUDED IN CHRIST.

"Christ is all and in all" and "Everyone is included in Christ." Can you not see that this is exactly the same thing?

ScottEmerson · Dec 14, 2003

APRON

Lk.12:37

KJB - he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat ....

Message - He'll put on an APRON, sit them at the table, and serve them a meal,

Now we're just being silly. We can't use the word apron now?

CLIMB OUT OF COFFIN

Eph.5:14

KJB - Awake thou that steepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Message - Wake up from your sleep, CLIMB OUT OF YOUR COFFINS; Christ will show you the light.