The Messianic Kingdom?

[OldRegular]

No foot shuffling here you just seem to interpret those scriptures in your way. I see Christ asking for the Father to help those of His Church, in this age. Through those passages.

Show where I said any of this:

"Your entire doctrine is based on the false premise that the Church of Jesus Christ, which he hath purchased with his own blood, is an interruption in GOD's program for national/ethnic Israel. You totally ignore the fact that GOD had a people before Israel and HE has a people now. "



Now it is time for you to stop your false accusations about me and prove where I said what you say.

You really do need to study reading comprehension. I was not talking about what you said. I was talking about what you believed. Read it again, in large print:

You can shuffle your feet, obfuscate, stammer, whatever but you cannot defend the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church. Your entire doctrine is based on the false premise that the Church of Jesus Christ, which he hath purchased with his own blood, is an interruption in GOD's program for national/ethnic Israel.

 

[OldRegular]

It is a paraphrase and that is all. It is in line with all the other translations.

That is false and you know it:

I did and the HE is Jesus Christ. And I am not alone in that belief. However, you hunt up a sleazy paraphrase, the CEV, which renders Daniel 9:27 as follows:

Daniel 9:27 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
27 For one week this foreigner will make a firm agreement with many people, and halfway through this week, he will end all sacrifices and offerings. Then the “Horrible Thing” that causes destruction will be put there. And it will stay there until the time God has decided to destroy this one who destroys.

Now consider how this verse is rendered in legitimate translations:

Daniel 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 American Standard Version (ASV)
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

Daniel 9:27 English Standard Version (ESV)
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Daniel 9:27 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Daniel 9:27 World English Bible (WEB)
27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate.


Daniel 9:27Darby Translation (DARBY)
27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many [for] one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations [there shall be] a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
27 And he {a} shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to {b} cease, {c} and for the overspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I have shown the translations above.

Now you tell me where do the people who wrote the CEV get the word "foreigner"? Where do they find the name "Horrible Thing"? Out of the pit of hell or the mind of Satan I suspect. None of the other translations use those words. There is no other explanation! It was sick of you to use that blasphemous rendering to slime me! Darby's translation does not blaspheme like the CEV but is consistent with all the others.

The trouble with your "commentaries" is that they are reading into the text those things that are not there. They are actually comparing Christ to the Antichrist. How can that be?

So you are calling the King James Version (KJV), the American Standard Version (ASV), the New King James Version (NKJV), the English Standard Version (ESV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB), the World English Bible (WEB), the Darby Translation (DARBY), and the 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV) commentaries? Very perceptive of you DHK.

I simply presented the footnotes to the Geneva Bible because they confirm my understanding of Daniel 9:27.

Footnotes to 1599 Geneva Bible:

{a} Daniel 9:27. By the preaching of the Gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

{b} Daniel 9:27. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

{c} Daniel 9:27. Meaning, that Jerusalem and the Sanctuary should be utterly destroyed for their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague shall be so great, that they shall be all astonied at them.

 

[revmwc]

Matthew 16:18, "...upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

The question is, what does Jesus Christ say the gates of hell shall not prevail against. The answer is HIS Church!

That's never been in question except maybe in your thinking. But that is not what you originally asked?

The question then becomes what is the church made up of?

In the O.T. Gentiles became proselytes by Faith in the Messiah who was coming. Salvation for the Jews came by Faith in the Messiah to come. Prior to the Law being given all who believed in the Savior to come were saved, by grace through faith. What changed throughout the ages, the means of worship Adam and his descendents offered sacrifice for sins, that lasted through the entire O.T. period, but God progressively dealt with men in different ways. Today He deals with us in Grace and the wall of partition being torn down we can now represent ourselves to Him. No more need for sacrifice. We will be taken home before the time of trial comes upon the whole world. In the Tribulation the Jews will set up a temple and offer sacrifices for 3 1/2 years, will God be in the Holy of Holy's, not at all. Will they turn to God as a nation not as a nation but we know 144,000 definitely do. Then Christ returns and sets up the 1000 year Kingdom. Scripture is clear.

 

[OldRegular]

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[revmwc]

That is false and you know it:


I have shown the translations above.

Now you tell me where do the people who wrote the CEV get the word "foreigner"? Where do they find the name "Horrible Thing"? Out of the pit of hell or the mind of Satan I suspect. None of the other translations use those words. There is no other explanation! It was sick of you to use that blasphemous rendering to slime me! Darby's translation does not blaspheme like the CEV but is consistent with all the others.



So you are calling the King James Version (KJV), the American Standard Version (ASV), the New King James Version (NKJV), the English Standard Version (ESV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB), the World English Bible (WEB), the Darby Translation (DARBY), and the 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV) commentaries? Very perceptive of you DHK.

I simply presented the footnotes to the Geneva Bible because they confirm my understanding of Daniel 9:27.

Footnotes to 1599 Geneva Bible:

{a} Daniel 9:27. By the preaching of the Gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

{b} Daniel 9:27. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

{c} Daniel 9:27. Meaning, that Jerusalem and the Sanctuary should be utterly destroyed for their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague shall be so great, that they shall be all astonied at them.

Keil & Delitzsch

"The assertion that the Messias is the chief person spoken of in the whole of this passage, rests on the supposition, already proved to be untenable, that the prince who was to come (Daniel 9:26) was the instrument of the Anointed, and on the passages in Isaiah 53:11; Isaiah 42:6, which are not parallel to that under consideration. The connection much more indicates that Nagid is the subject to הגבּיר, since the prince who was to come is named last, and is also the subject in the suffix of קצּו (his end), the last clause of Daniel 9:26 having only the significance of an explanatory subordinate clause. Also “the taking away of the daily sacrifice combines itself in a natural way with the destruction (Daniel 9:26) of the city and the temple brought about by the הבּא נגיד;” - further, “he who here is represented as 'causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease' is obviously identical with him who changes (Daniel 7:25) the times and usages of worship (more correctly: times and law)” (Kran.). “The reference of הגבּיר to the ungodly leader of an army, is therefore according to the context and the parallel passages of this book which have been mentioned, as well as in harmony with the natural grammatical arrangement of the passage,” and it gives also a congruous sense, although by the Nagid Titus cannot naturally be understood. בּרית הגבּיר means to strengthen a covenant, i.e., to make a covenant strong (Hitzig has not established the rendering: to make grievous). “Covenant” does not necessarily mean the covenant of God (Old Testament or New Testament Covenant), since the assertion that this word occurs only in this book with reference to the covenant of God with Israel (Hgstb.) does not also prove that it must here have this meaning; and with expression בּרית הגבּיר with ל is analogous to בּרית כּרּת [icere faedus] with ל; and the construction with ל signifies that as in the forming of a covenant, so in the confirming of a covenant, the two contracting parties are not viewed as standing on an equality, but he who concludes or who confirms the covenant prevails, and imposes or forces the covenant on the other party. The reference to the covenant of God with man is thus indeed suggested, yet it is not rendered necessary, but only points to a relation analogous to the concluding of a covenant emanating from God. לרבּים with the article signifies the many, i.e., the great mass of the people in contrast with the few, who remain faithful to God; cf. Matthew 24:12. Therefore the thought is this: That ungodly prince shall impose on the mass of the people a strong covenant that they should follow him and give themselves to him as their God."

If Kliefoth answers this objection by saying that we must conceive of this from the connection, namely, that which brings the power of Antichrist to its height, then we shall be able also, in the verbally correct interpretation of השׁבוּע חצי, to conceive from the connection what shall happen in the remaining period of the שׁבוּע

They make it clear that the he is the ungodly prince and the anti-christ.

They knew their Hebrew and Delitzsch was partially from Jewish lineage and knew the tenses of Daniel very well.

 

[revmwc]

It is very strange to the point of being irrational. You dispensationalists who rail against anyone who doesn't believe National Israel is still the chosen people of GOD can't wait until GOD brings seven, or is it 3.5, years of unbearable tribulation and destruction on Israel. Then, in the supposed Messianic Kingdom, they will revert to the endless bloody sacrifices which are an abomination to GOD and for which reason HE destroyed the Temple in 70AD. That is an abominable and sick doctrine in my opinion.

First the Tribulation is upon the WHOLE World not just the Jewish nation. Destruction comes upon the whole world. Revelation states at several points that 1/3 of the earth's population die. Then another 1/4 will die. Of the entire population of the earth during the Tribulation. Israel will offer sacrifices in the first half of the 7 years. Nothing I have seen says a sacrifice is offered in the Millennial please give the scripture where you find it.

 

[OldRegular]

It is very strange to the point of being irrational. You dispensationalists who rail against anyone who doesn't believe National Israel is still the chosen people of GOD can't wait until GOD brings seven, or is it 3.5, years of unbearable tribulation and destruction on Israel. Then, in the supposed Messianic Kingdom, they will revert to the endless bloody sacrifices which are an abomination to GOD and for which reason HE destroyed the Temple in 70AD. That is an abominable and sick doctrine in my opinion.

First the Tribulation is upon the WHOLE World not just the Jewish nation. Destruction comes upon the whole world. Revelation states at several points that 1/3 of the earth's population die. Then another 1/4 will die. Of the entire population of the earth during the Tribulation. Israel will offer sacrifices in the first half of the 7 years. Nothing I have seen says a sacrifice is offered in the Millennial please give the scripture where you find it.

You really need to learn to use the quote feature properly! The above is correct. Please don't attribute anything I post to yourself!

Nothing I have seen says a sacrifice is offered in the Millennial please give the scripture where you find it.

It is not in Scripture but that poses no problem to the Rapture Ready. The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not in Scripture either.

I have posted on numerous occasions the claim by dispensational scholars that blood sacrifices will be offered during the millennial kingdom. And with Jesus Christ sitting right there in Davids chair!

 

[DHK]

That is false and you know it:

It is a paraphrase, and as a paraphrase it is in keeping with the other translations.
For example, the Living Bible says:
..."the Enemy shall utterly destroy the sanctuary of God."
Now who is the "Enemy"? Christ? No.

I have shown the translations above.

The translations don't show anything different than the CEV.

Now you tell me where do the people who wrote the CEV get the word "foreigner"? Where do they find the name "Horrible Thing"? Out of the pit of hell or the mind of Satan I suspect. None of the other translations use those words. There is no other explanation! It was sick of you to use that blasphemous rendering to slime me! Darby's translation does not blaspheme like the CEV but is consistent with all the others.[/b]

It is their rendition as a paraphrase. They get it from the context, both of verse 26 and 27. The person being spoken of is the "coming prince," who is not Christ. (vs.26). That is the "he", the antecedent to which he refers to is "prince," and that prince is a coming Antichrist.

So you are calling the King James Version (KJV), the American Standard Version (ASV), the New King James Version (NKJV), the English Standard Version (ESV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB), the World English Bible (WEB), the Darby Translation (DARBY), and the 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV) commentaries? Very perceptive of you DHK.

No they are translations. Nothing wrong with them. However, the Geneva Bible had some commentary on this passage, which of course, is not inspired.

I simply presented the footnotes to the Geneva Bible because they confirm my understanding of Daniel 9:27.

And they are wrong.

Footnotes to 1599 Geneva Bible:

{a} Daniel 9:27. By the preaching of the Gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

{b} Daniel 9:27. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

{c} Daniel 9:27. Meaning, that Jerusalem and the Sanctuary should be utterly destroyed for their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague shall be so great, that they shall be all astonied at them.

Verse 27 says nothing about Christ. That must be read into the passage.

Here is the KJV again:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here are some notes on verse 27 by MacArthur.

This is surely the end of the age, the Second Advent judgment, because the bringing in of righteousness did not occur seven years after the death of the Messiah, nor did the destruction of Jerusalem fit the seven year period (occurring 37 years later). This is the future 7 year period which ends with sin's final judgment and Christ's reign of righteousness; i.e., the return of Christ and the establishment of His rule. These seven years constitute the 70th week of Daniel.

He shall confirm. "He" is the last-mentioned prince (vs.26), leader of the Roman sphere (cf. chs. 2; 7), the Antichrist who comes in the latter days. The time is in the future Tribulation period of "one week," i.e., the final seven years of verse 24. He confirms (lit., causes to prevail) a seven-year covenant, his own pact with Israel, that will actually turn out to be for a shorter time. The leader in this covenant is the "little horn" of 7:7, 8, 20, 21, 24-26, and the evil leader found in NT prophecy (Mark 13:14; 2Thes.2:3-10; Rev.13:1-10). That he is in the future, even after Christ's First Advent, is shown by: (1) Mat.24:15; (2) the time references that match (7:25; Rev.11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5); and (3) the end extending to the Second Advent, matching the duration elsewhere mentioned in Daniel (2:35, 45; 7:15ff; 12:1-3) and Revelation 11:2; 12:14; 13:5.

middle of the week. This the halfway point of the 70th week of years, i.e., 7 years leading to Christ's Second Coming. The Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel (vs. 27a), which has resumed its ancient sacrificial system. 3 1/2 years of Tribulation remain, agreeing with time in other scriptures (7:25; Rev.11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5, called "Great Tribulation," cf. Mat.24:21) as a period when God's wrath intensifies.

Abominations...one who makes desolate. The Antichrist will cause abomination against Jewish religion. This violation will desolate or ruin what Jews regard as sacred, namely their holy temple and the honoring of God's presence there (cf. 1Kings 9:3; 2Thes.2:4). Jesus refers directly to this text in His Olivet discourse (Mat.24:15).

The consummation. God permits this tribulation during the Antichrist's persecutions and then ultimately triumphs by judging the sin and sinners in Israel (12:7) and in the world (cf. Jer.25:31). This includes the Antichrist (11:45; Rev.19:20), and all who deserve judgment (9:24; Mat.13:41-43).

From the MacArthur Bible Commentary.

 

[OldRegular]

Verse 27 says nothing about Christ. That must be read into the passage.

Verse 27 says nothing about a foreigner; that is what happens when people decide that the Word of GOD really isn't the Word of GOD. Verse 27 says nothing about “Horrible Thing”; that is what happens when people decide that the Word of GOD really isn't the Word of GOD.

For all I know the CEV was produced by Rapture Ready people. Daniel 9:27 would lead one to believe that.

And you are mistaken The antecedent of the He of Verse 27 is the Messiah of verse 26 who is murdered by the Jews AFTER 69 weeks, actually the middle of the 70th week. It was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that brought an end to the blood sacrifices in the Temple. The unbelieving Jews just were as Stephen said a "stiff-necked people" who conspired to with Rome to crucify the Lord of Glory. GOD in HIS own time and way brought an end to these useless sacrifices through the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple in 70AD. Jacob's time of trouble I suppose!

Daniel 9:26, 27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[DHK]

Verse 27 says nothing about a foreigner; that is what happens when people decide that the Word of GOD really isn't the Word of GOD. Verse 27 says nothing about “Horrible Thing”; that is what happens when people decide that the Word of GOD really isn't the Word of GOD.

For all I know the CEV was produced by Rapture Ready people. Daniel 9:27 would lead one to believe that.

The only reason the CEV used the word "foreigner" is that they recognized who the antecedent was. "He" refers right back to "prince" a very evil person. He is a Roman, which is indeed a foreigner. In no way can "he" refer back to Messiah. The antecedent is "prince." There is your confusion.

And you are mistaken The antecedent of the He of Verse 27 is the Messiah of verse 26 who is murdered by the Jews AFTER 69 weeks, actually the middle of the 70th week. It was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that brought an end to the blood sacrifices in the Temple. The unbelieving Jews just were as Stephen said a "stiff-necked people" who conspired to with Rome to crucify the Lord of Glory. GOD in HIS own time and way brought an end to these useless sacrifices through the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple in 70AD. Jacob's time of trouble I suppose!

Daniel 9:26, 27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How do you read all of that into those two verses. When the Hebrew text was written, not only was there no chapter divisions, there was no verse divisions. In fact the Masoretes also had to put in the vowel pointing to make it easier to read for those learning Hebrew.

Therefore you would read this:
...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
--There is no mention of the Messiah. He is not mentioned here. The antecedent is "the prince," the one who "shall come." And when he "shall come" he "shall" confirm the covenant with many for one week.
First, Jesus never did that.
Second, context rules out Jesus.
Third, it all is future.
Fourth, the one who is to come is one who is against God.
Fifth, the one who is to come will confirm a covenant with the Jews for one week or seven years. And then in the midst of that period of time he will break it.

These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)

All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.

 

[revmwc]

You really need to learn to use the quote feature properly! The above is correct. Please don't attribute anything I post to yourself!

It is not in Scripture but that poses no problem to the Rapture Ready. The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not in Scripture either.

I have posted on numerous occasions the claim by dispensational scholars that blood sacrifices will be offered during the millennial kingdom. And with Jesus Christ sitting right there in Davids chair!

I heard it taught once and the context was that the sacrifice would be a memorial sacrifice. However, since the 1000 Kingdom is a time when the Earth turns back to pre-flood existence, animals eating herbs as they did before the flood, the sacrifices offered by Adam and Abel were looking forward to a coming Savior, I really don't see a memorial sacrifice.

 

[Iconoclast]

I heard it taught once and the context was that the sacrifice would be a memorial sacrifice. However, since the 1000 Kingdom is a time when the Earth turns back to pre-flood existence, animals eating herbs as they did before the flood, the sacrifices offered by Adam and Abel were looking forward to a coming Savior, I really don't see a memorial sacrifice.

This was one of the many ideas offered that started me questioning the teaching after studying the book of Hebrews....the "once for all time" sacrifice.

 

[OldRegular]

The only reason the CEV used the word "foreigner" is that they recognized who the antecedent was. "He" refers right back to "prince" a very evil person. He is a Roman, which is indeed a foreigner. In no way can "he" refer back to Messiah. The antecedent is "prince." There is your confusion.


How do you read all of that into those two verses. When the Hebrew text was written, not only was there no chapter divisions, there was no verse divisions. In fact the Masoretes also had to put in the vowel pointing to make it easier to read for those learning Hebrew.

Therefore you would read this:
...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
--There is no mention of the Messiah. He is not mentioned here. The antecedent is "the prince," the one who "shall come." And when he "shall come" he "shall" confirm the covenant with many for one week.
First, Jesus never did that.
Second, context rules out Jesus.
Third, it all is future.
Fourth, the one who is to come is one who is against God.
Fifth, the one who is to come will confirm a covenant with the Jews for one week or seven years. And then in the midst of that period of time he will break it.

These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)

All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to believe you are absolutely wrong. Your interpretation is the standard dispensational interpretation of Daniel's 70th week and it is wrong.

 

[OldRegular]

This was one of the many ideas offered that started me questioning the teaching after studying the book of Hebrews....the "once for all time" sacrifice.

As I said earlier a close reading of Hebrews is the death knell of pre-trib-dispensationalism! But I could say the same about other books of the Bible!

 

[revmwc]

As I said earlier a close reading of Hebrews is the death knell of pre-trib-dispensationalism! But I could say the same about other books of the Bible!

Of course Jesus Promise to those who keep the WORD of His Patience is all we really need to know we won't go through the time of Trial that is coming upon the WHOLE world.

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Couple that with Paul's promise, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,
13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

There will be a snatching away. You just need to decide when. And we don't see it at the end.

We do see This in Revelation 20:5-7,
5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

We see a separate resurrection of the dead that is the unbeliever.

Scripture is very clear, there is a snatching away, Jesus promised all who keep the Patience of His Word that is salvation, will be kept from the time of Trial coming upon the WHOLE WORLD, from Revelation 6:17 we see that Time of Trial beginning, for the Wrath of God begins. The 7 year tribulation starts then we see Christ return with His bride in Revelation 19 and they live and reign with Him 1000 years. Then Revelation 20 says after the 1000 years the rest of day are resurrected face the Great White Throne Judgment.

Scripture is clear.

Romans 14:9-11,
9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Notice we will stand before the BEMA that is Judgment seat of Christ.

What happens to believers there?

1 Corinthians 3:11-16,
11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

We receive rewards at the BEMA Seat.

What happens ate the Great White Throne?

Revelation 20:11-15,

11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

The ones who come before the Great White Throne everyone who are by the way called the dead, are cast into the Lake Of Fire.

The judgment we see in Revelation 20 is only for the dead that is the unbeliever, those who have rejected Christ.

OR in your belief of a general Resurrection where do you see the BEMA Seat Judgment taking place in Revelation?

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus Christ, Crucified at the Instigation of Jews DURING Daniel's 70th Week!

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Regarding the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, the 70 weeks is universally considered to be 70 weeks of years or 490 years.

In Verse 25 we read that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

Until Messiah the Prince what: The only logical explanation is until the Messiah begins HIS ministry. That is after 483 years Jesus Christ, Messiah the Prince, will begin HIS ministry which lasted about 3.5 years.

Now consider Verse 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: We see that that sometime AFTER 69 weeks Jesus Christ will be "cut off" murdered but not for Himself. It is obvious that DURING the 70th week Jesus Christ was crucified by Rome at the instigation of the Jews.

Now consider Verse 27: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The ministry of Jesus Christ was about 3.5 years meaning HE was crucified in the middle of the 70th week. And what did that death of Jesus Christ accomplish: the Salvation of all who believed in HIM {John 3:16}. That meant that the endless blood sacrifices of the Jews in the Temple were useless. Jesus Christ made the final atonement for our sins fulfilling that promise made initially in the Garden of Eden {Genesis 3:15}

The continuation of the bloody offerings by the Jews was, therefore, an abomination before GOD and HE brought those sacrifices to an end in 70AD using the armies of Rome to do so.

Scripture clearly shows for all who do not filter Scripture through the blinders of dispensational error that the 70th week was the week in which Jesus Christ was crucified and was finished almost 2000 years ago.

If there was any truth in the doctrine of dispensationalism they would not have to rely on a spurious interpretation of Daniel's prophecy to support that doctrine.

 

[beameup]

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Regarding the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, the 70 weeks is universally considered to be 70 weeks of years or 490 years.

In Verse 25 we read that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

Until Messiah the Prince what: The only logical explanation is until the Messiah begins HIS ministry. That is after 483 years Jesus Christ, Messiah the Prince, will begin HIS ministry which lasted about 3.5 years.

Now consider Verse 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: We see that that sometime AFTER 69 weeks Jesus Christ will be "cut off" murdered but not for Himself. It is obvious that DURING the 70th week Jesus Christ was crucified by Rome at the instigation of the Jews.

Now consider Verse 27: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The ministry of Jesus Christ was about 3.5 years meaning HE was crucified in the middle of the 70th week. And what did that death of Jesus Christ accomplish: the Salvation of all who believed in HIM {John 3:16}. That meant that the endless blood sacrifices of the Jews in the Temple were useless. Jesus Christ made the final atonement for our sins fulfilling that promise made initially in the Garden of Eden {Genesis 3:15}

The continuation of the bloody offerings by the Jews was, therefore, an abomination before GOD and HE brought those sacrifices to an end in 70AD using the armies of Rome to do so.

Scripture clearly shows for all who do not filter Scripture through the blinders of dispensational error that the 70th week was the week in which Jesus Christ was crucified and was finished almost 2000 years ago.

If there was any truth in the doctrine of dispensationalism they would not have to rely on a spurious interpretation of Daniel's prophecy to support that doctrine.

"Messiah the Prince" refers to the Triumphal Entry. He was fulfilling prophecy, riding on a young donkey, and was received by the people, and should have been received by the religious leaders.
As far as the rebuilding of the Temple which included the rebuilding of the gates and wall, that is covered in Nehemiah, and a date can be established.
So, decoding Daniel's prophecy, there was no excuse for the religious leaders NOT to know the exact date that the Messiah would present himself.
Now, we have one "week" of years yet left... that is unless total fulfillment by 37-40AD can be shown from scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

"Messiah the Prince" refers to the Triumphal Entry. He was fulfilling prophecy, riding on a young donkey, and was received by the people, and should have been received by the religious leaders.
As far as the rebuilding of the Temple which included the rebuilding of the gates and wall, that is covered in Nehemiah, and a date can be established.
So, decoding Daniel's prophecy, there was no excuse for the religious leaders NOT to know the exact date that the Messiah would present himself.
Now, we have one "week" of years yet left... that is unless total fulfillment by 37-40AD can be shown from scripture.

And your point is?????????

 

[DHK]

Daniel 9:24-27
the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Now consider Verse 27: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The ministry of Jesus Christ was about 3.5 years meaning HE was crucified in the middle of the 70th week. And what did that death of Jesus Christ accomplish: the Salvation of all who believed in HIM {John 3:16}. That meant that the endless blood sacrifices of the Jews in the Temple were useless. Jesus Christ made the final atonement for our sins fulfilling that promise made initially in the Garden of Eden {Genesis 3:15}

The continuation of the bloody offerings by the Jews was, therefore, an abomination before GOD and HE brought those sacrifices to an end in 70AD using the armies of Rome to do so.

Scripture clearly shows for all who do not filter Scripture through the blinders of dispensational error that the 70th week was the week in which Jesus Christ was crucified and was finished almost 2000 years ago.

If there was any truth in the doctrine of dispensationalism they would not have to rely on a spurious interpretation of Daniel's prophecy to support that doctrine.

...The prince that shall come...he shall confirm a covenant with many (the Jews) for one week...
Jesus never did that.
But the coming Antichrist will. How does your interpretation fit with that.
Christ is not "the prince that shall come," which is the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27. The people of that prince are Romans. Thus "this foreigner," not Christ, who is coming, will make a covenant or promise with the Jews for 7 years and then break it in the middle of that 7 year period. That hasn't happened yet.

 

[OldRegular]

...The prince that shall come...he shall confirm a covenant with many (the Jews) for one week...
Jesus never did that.
But the coming Antichrist will. How does your interpretation fit with that.
Christ is not "the prince that shall come," which is the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27. The people of that prince are Romans. Thus "this foreigner," not Christ, who is coming, will make a covenant or promise with the Jews for 7 years and then break it in the middle of that 7 year period. That hasn't happened yet.

Do you have any Scripture to support the above?

I saw nothing in the passage from Daniel about the coming anti-Christ. The Apostle John in his epistles tells us there are many anti-Christs and there are. Communism is, many in the leftist democrat party are anti-Christs, the world is full of anti-Christs and Islam is perhaps the worst one today. There are also anti-Christs in some of the so-called churches of today.

I showed that Jesus Christ was crucified DURING the 70th week. HIS death made the continuation of bloody sacrifices in the Temple absolutely worthless, an abomination before GOD. Scripture tells us: The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind? {Proverbs 21:27} Certainly no one is more wicked than the priests who conspired with hated Rome to crucify Jesus Christ.

In 70AD GOD brought HIS judgment on Israel for their part in the death of Jesus Christ using the hated Romans. GOD also put an end to the abomination of continued blood offerings in the Temple by having the Roman soldiers destroy the Temple. GOD's use of Rome in HIS judgment of Israel is consistent with HIS use of Assyria and Babylon in the past!