The Messianic Kingdom?

[DHK]

Dan 9:26,27 ...and the people of the prince that shall come...
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Before attempting any post, I would appreciate an answer to this one question which has gone unanswered for a long time.
If the "he" (as you say), refers to "Christ," then where in the NT does Christ confirm a covenant for seven years and then in the middle of that seven week period break his own promise? How is that even possible?

Can't you just give an answer to the question instead of giving a long verbose quote from some theologian who basically gives some comparisons but doesn't answer the question I asked.
Just answer the question.

 

[OldRegular]

Comments on Daniel 9:24 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness. Righteousness is the most prominent feature of the kingdom of God. To show this we need only cite those familiar passages: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" (Mt 6: 33); "the kingdom of God is righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Ro 14: 17). One characteristic of God’s righteousness, which He was "to bring in" through the sacrifice of Christ (Ro 3: 21-26), is that it endures forever; and this is what is emphasized in the prophecy. A work was to be done, and now has been done, which would bring in everlasting righteousness— everlasting because based upon the Cross, as foretold also through Isaiah, "My righteousness shall be forever" (Isa 51: 8). Jesus Christ has now been made unto us "righteousness" (1Co 1: 30); and this is in fulfilment of another great promise: "Behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper ..... And this is His Name whereby He shall be called Jehovah Our Righteousness" (Jer 23: 5,6).

5. To seal up vision and prophecy. This we take to mean the sealing up of God’s word of prophecy to the Israelites, as part of the punishment they brought upon themselves. The word "seal up" sometimes means, in a secondary sense, to make secure, since what is tightly sealed up is made safe against being tampered with. Hence some have understood by this item merely that vision and prophecy were to be fulfilled. But we are not aware that the word "sealed up" is used in that sense in the Scriptures. For when the fulfilment of prophecy is meant, the word "to fulfil" is used. We think the word should be taken here in its primary meaning; for it was distinctly foretold, as a prominent feature of Israel’s punishment, that both vision and prophet— i.e., both eye and ear— were to be closed up, so that seeing they would see not, and hearing they would hear not (Isa 6: 10).

Moreover, this very sealing up of vision and prophecy as a part of the chastening of Israel was foretold by Isaiah in that great passage where he speaks of Christ as the Foundation Stone (Isa 28: 16). Following this is a prediction of "woe" to the city where David dwelt (Isa 29: 1). So we have here a prophecy which is parallel to that of Gabriel. The latter spoke of the cutting off of Messiah to be followed by the destruction of Jerusalem; and Isaiah also spoke of Christ as God’s Foundation Stone, laid in Zion (resurrection) and then of the overthrow of the earthly Zion. As to this overthrow God speaks through Isaiah very definitely saying, "And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and raise a fort against thee, and thou shalt be brought down" (Isa 29: 1-4). Then the prophet speaks of a coming storm and tempest and devouring fire, and also of the multitude of the nations that were to fight against the city (Isa 29: 6-9). And then come these significant words: "For the Lord God hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes, the prophets; and your rulers, the seers, hath He covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed" (Isa 29: 10,11). This manifestly corresponds with Gabriel’s words "to seal up vision and prophet." Moreover, the word "sealed, " in (Isa 29: 11), is the same as in (Da 9: 24). These words of Isaiah also give a remarkably accurate description of the spiritual blindness of the people and their rulers in Christ’s day, who, though they read the prophets every Sabbath day, yet because they knew not their voices, fulfilled them in condemning Him (Ac 13: 27).

The fulfilment of Isaiah 6 also comes in here. For the Lord Himself declared that, in His day, was fulfilled the word "Go and tell this people, Hear ye indeed but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed" (Isa 6: 9,10; Mt 13: 14,15). John also quotes this prophecy and applies it to the Jews of his day (Joh 12: 39-41); and Paul does the same (Ac 28: 25- 27).

Hence we should note with deep interest the question which this sentence of judgment prompted Isaiah to ask, and the answer he received. Evidently the prophet understood that the judgment pronounced in the words quoted above was to be one of terrible severity, for he at once inquired anxiously, "How long" the period of judicial blindness was to last. The answer was, "Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, and the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land" (Isa 6: 11,12).

Here we have a clear prediction of that which Christ Himself prophesied when He foretold the desolation of Judea, and the scattering of the Jews among all nations (Lu 21: 24).

6. To anoint the most holy place. When these papers were first written and published in serial form, we were of opinion that this prediction had its fulfilment in the entrance of the Lord Jesus Christ into the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 9: 23,24). But subsequently a copy of Dr. Pusey’s work on Daniel the Prophet came into our hands, and we were much impressed by the exposition of this passage given by that great Hebrew scholar, who so ably defended the Book of Daniel from the assaults of the destructive critics. He pointed out that the word anoint had acquired a settled spiritual meaning, citing the words of (Isa 61: 1,2), which our Lord applied to Himself, as He Whom God had "anointed." Dr. Pusey also pointed out that, inasmuch as the same word is used in the very next verse of Daniel "unto the Anointed, the Prince"— it is to be assumed that words so closely united must be used with the same meaning. This gives the idea of an "anointing of an All Holy place" by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit thereon. Dr. Pusey cites much evidence in support of this idea; but without going into the discussion of the matter at length, we will simply state that we were led thereby to the conclusion that the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples of Christ, on the day of Pentecost, thereby anointing (2Co 1: 21) a spiritual temple "the temple of the living God" (2Co 6: 16), furnishes a fulfilment of this detail of the prophecy, a fulfilment which is not only in keeping with the other five items, but which brings the whole series to a worthy climax.

These six predicted events, which we have now considered in detail, were, according to the words of God by Gabriel, to be accomplished within the "determined" (or limited, or "marked off") period of seventy sevens of years; and we have shown— indeed it is so clear as hardly to be open to dispute— that all six items were completely fulfilled at the first coming of Christ, and in the "week" of His crucifixion. For when our Lord ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit descended, there remained not one of the six items of (Da 9: 24) that was not fully accomplished.

Furthermore, by running our eye rapidly over verses (Da 9: 25,26) we see that the coming of Christ and His being "cut off" are announced as the means whereby the prophecy was to be fulfilled; and that there is added the foretelling of the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus the Roman "prince, " and the "desolations" of Jerusalem, and the wars that were to continue through this entire age "unto the end."

We do not speak at this point of verse 27. That part of the prophecy will require a particularly careful examination, which we purpose to give it later on.

 

[OldRegular]

Can't you just give an answer to the question instead of giving a long verbose quote from some theologian who basically gives some comparisons but doesn't answer the question I asked.
Just answer the question.

The question is not germane to the OP! Furthermore I showed by Scripture that the six promises of Daniel 9:24 had been fulfilled. Not one word of rebuttal from you. Then you refuse to answer the following questions:

Originally Posted by OldRegular

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?

2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?

3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?

Your response:

These questions are off topic and have nothing to do with "Messianic Kingdom" or especially, the passage of Daniel 9:24-27.

It is unacceptable for a Christian to ignore those there questions with the snotty response:

These questions are off topic and have nothing to do with "Messianic Kingdom" or especially, the passage of Daniel 9:24-27.

You have accused me of making Jesus Christ a liar and a covenant breaker yet you refuse to answer the questions I ask. I have nothing more to say to you DHK.

 

[DHK]

Can't you just give an answer to the question instead of giving a long verbose quote from some theologian who basically gives some comparisons but doesn't answer the question I asked.
Just answer the question.

Going on a copy and pasting rampage gets you no closer to the answer of this simple question:

Originally Posted by DHK View Post
Dan 9:26,27 ...and the people of the prince that shall come...
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Before attempting any post, I would appreciate an answer to this one question which has gone unanswered for a long time.
If the "he" (as you say), refers to "Christ," then where in the NT does Christ confirm a covenant for seven years and then in the middle of that seven week period break his own promise? How is that even possible?

 

[DHK]

The question is not germane to the OP!

I am asking for your explanation of Daniel 9:27.
You are posting page after page commentary on Daniel 9:24-27?
How is it not relevant?
It is my question to your understanding to the verse.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your questions did not bring the discussion to a stop. It was my refusal to engage in further verbal abuse from the moderator, DHK. I will respond to your post.



That 70 weeks, or seventy sevens is meant to be 490 years is, I believe, based on the history of the return of the Jews from captivity and subsequent history. Though there is much disagreement over the actual beginning and end of the 490 years I believe there is substantial agreement among scholars that the seventy sevens means 490 years. Philip Mauro in his book The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation writes {Chapter 3}:





You correctly state that an hour is a very short period of ti,e. I assume that you have reference to John 5:28, 29:

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If we are to understand Scripture we must recognize that the language of Scripture includes figures of speech such as parables, hyperbole, simile, metaphor, symbolism, and allegories as well as language that is plain and straightforward in the truth it presents. Then there are Scripture written in apocalyptic language as is much of the Book of Revelation, Ezekiel, and Daniel. It is obvious given the context in which the above Scripture is presented that Jesus Christ is teaching a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead, and obviously those still living, at a specific time in history as we know it.



A proper interpretation of the Book of Revelation requires an understanding of the literary form called apocalyptic literature? The word apocalyptic comes from apocalypse and is used to describe one literary form used in the book of Revelation. Ray Frank Robbins, a former professor at the New Orleans Baptist Seminary, describes apocalyptic literature, as follows[Revelation: Three Viewpoints, G. R. Beasley-Murray, Herschel H. Hobbs, Ray Frank Robbins.] :



Among other things Revelation is a book of numbers. We see frequent use of the number seven {7}, twelve {12}, 2 X12 or twenty four {24}, 0ne thousand {1000}, 12X1000 or 12,000, 12X12X1000 or 144,000. It is obvious then that all the numbers in Revelation, given the language used in the book that applying a strict literal value to these numbers is foolish, certainly it is unBiblical.

My understanding of the 1000 years you mention is that they represent the time between the ascension of Jesus Christ and His return in power and Glory to bring history/time to a close, with the resurrection of John 5:28, 29, followed by the White Throne Judgment, Satan cast into the lake of fire, and the New Heavens and Earth where GOD will dwell with His Church throughout Eternity.

I am pretty well studied on my eschatology. Being in the amill group, I asked those questions because it puzzles me that the 70 weeks is not really 70 weeks, the hour is coming(you correctly guess the John 5 usage) as being a short time period, but then the 1,000 years in Revelation is literal.


Something's not entirely clicking there.

 

[DHK]

The question is not germane to the OP! Furthermore I showed by Scripture that the six promises of Daniel 9:24 had been fulfilled. Not one word of rebuttal from you. Then you refuse to answer the following questions:

The question is obviously germane as this passage has been discussed since page two of this thread. I am simply asking for an honest exegesis of verse 27, one you will not give.

I have shown you how all six of those do not apply:
1. Daniel was speaking only to the Jews. Look at the context. "70 weeks is determined upon YOUR people." That is not the Gentiles he is speaking about.
2. They take place in the 70th week.
3. The 70th week is still future.
4. It is evident that none of these things have happened yet. I have gone through all of these points with you.

However:

Originally Posted by OldRegular

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?

Of course not. The only note about the death of Christ in this entire passage is that it will happen after 69 weeks. Nothing more is said about it. No other phrase in this passage refers to the death of Christ.

2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?

Yes. That is how it was with Abraham, and that is how it is with all who believe in Christ.
(Rom.4:1-5; 5:1)

3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?

The righteousness that Christ gives an individual is forever.
The righteousness that is mentioned in this passage has nothing to do with individuals. It speaks of a world with righteousness:
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
That is, HE will bring in everlasting righteousness to His Kingdom on earth.
That is vastly different than giving a person the righteousness of Christ.
There is no everlasting righteousness in this world today. Today this world is held captive by the god of this world, Satan. Christ does not rule this world; Satan does.

It is unacceptable for a Christian to ignore those there questions with the snotty response:

I have fully answered them now, even though I had mostly answered them before.

You have accused me of making Jesus Christ a liar and a covenant breaker yet you refuse to answer the questions I ask. I have nothing more to say to you DHK.

Unless you can answer my question, my accusation stands. Your interpretation of verse 27 leaves Christ hanging as liar and truce-breaker unless you can explain to me how "he" can make a covenant for 7 years and then break the same covenant in the middle of it.
This is how I see your interpretation. You haven't explained it any better than that. Unless you do, that is what I must conclude about your beliefs.
Please answer my question.

Obviously, that is why I believe "he" refers to the Antichrist, for the Antichrist would make a covenant for seven years, and would have no problem lying about it and breaking it half way through.

 

[OldRegular]

I am pretty well studied on my eschatology. Being in the amill group, I asked those questions because it puzzles me that the 70 weeks is not really 70 weeks, the hour is coming(you correctly guess the John 5 usage) as being a short time period, but then the 1,000 years in Revelation is literal.


Something's not entirely clicking there.

Pre-trib-dispensationalism doesn't click at all!

 

[revmwc]

Then show where. Words do have meaning you know!

Post numbers 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59 where you refuse to answer a question, 131, 132, 134, 136, 143. All have opposing views to yours and you never breakdown your assertion that they are wrong by breaking down scripture, you always post what other commentaries say, I also posted the most recognized of Hebrew O.T. scholars Keil and Delitzsch and you reject their breakdown of the passage in Daniel, Delitzsch was from Jewish ancestry and would have the best grasp of what Daniel was teaching and he says all this has not been fulfilled and that the ungodly prince seen in verse 27 is the anti-christ not Christ and that the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled yet you just refuse to accept it because your go to commentaries say something different.

 

[OldRegular]

Post numbers 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59 where you refuse to answer a question, 131, 132, 134, 136, 143. All have opposing views to yours and you never breakdown your assertion that they are wrong by breaking down scripture, you always post what other commentaries say, I also posted the most recognized of Hebrew O.T. scholars Keil and Delitzsch and you reject their breakdown of the passage in Daniel, Delitzsch was from Jewish ancestry and would have the best grasp of what Daniel was teaching and he says all this has not been fulfilled and that the ungodly prince seen in verse 27 is the anti-christ not Christ and that the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled yet you just refuse to accept it because your go to commentaries say something different.

I don't accept the false doctrine of dispensationalism no matter who spouts it. No one has responded to the Scripture I presented showing that the six promises of Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Phillip Mauro makes the same assertion I do in my recent posts. No response, only snide remarks!

 

[revmwc]

I am pretty well studied on my eschatology. Being in the amill group, I asked those questions because it puzzles me that the 70 weeks is not really 70 weeks, the hour is coming(you correctly guess the John 5 usage) as being a short time period, but then the 1,000 years in Revelation is literal.


Something's not entirely clicking there.

John 5:28, 29:

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Interlinear:

28. No be marveling this that is coming hour in which all the ones in the memorial vaults shall be hearing of the sound of Him

29. and they shall be out going the ones the good doing into up standing of life the ones yet the foul practising into up standing of judging.

Now we see that the hour was coming when those in the grave would hear Jesus.
When did this happen, at His death all in the grave heard him, both the righteous and the unrighteous. We see it in 1 Peter 3:18-20,

18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


Christ voice was heard through Hell when He preached to those in prison how can we know this?

Luke 16:22-27;
22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:"

When Jesus preached all heard, those in Paradise heard of His victory, the angels which kept not their first estate heard Him from the bottomless pit and those in torments heard Him. That would cover everyone in the Grave and fulfill John 5:28.

Then we see Paul too, Ephesians 4:9&10,
9 "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Paul says he descended and Peter says He preached to those in Prison when?

Luke 23:42-44,

42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour."

At His death all this occurred and beautifully fulfilled John 5:28. Now the thief said "remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom," We know that the thief was speaking of the Messianic Kingdom, Christ promised to take Him to Paradise, is that the Messianic Kingdom? If so it is not on Earth, but scripture is very clear there will be a Messianic Kingdom upon the earth. So He promised the malefactor an eternal home.

We also see a fulfillment of verse 29 in scripture, 2nd Corinthians 5:8,
8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

The righteous of Paradise were taken to heaven at some point because now all believers go to Heaven. Christ is seated on the Right hand of the Father, so "the ones the good doing into up standing of life" were removed from Paradise to Heaven a change occurred, "the foul practising into up standing of judging" are in torments awaiting judgement and those who were in graves at the time Jesus spoke the words in John 5 heard His voice and the just went from Paradise into Heaven the unjust were kept in torments until the Great White Throne occurs. Yet the promised Messianic Kingdom is yet to Come!

Paul said His Kingdom was yet to come, 2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; "

He also delineated that there was a Kingdom already, 2 Timothy 4:17-18,
17 "Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Paul would enter the Heavenly Kingdom just as all believers will.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-6,
4 "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"

We are worthy to go to Heaven by Jesus Blood and Righteousness, yet Paul says we will be worthy for the Kingdom of God, that is a yet future Kingdom and we see too that the Tribulation is coming for Paul says, "God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you" the Tribulation is coming for the unbeliever it is seen in Revelation 6-19.


1 Corinthians 15:23-26,
23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

We see that those at His coming that is the rapture we see the order of the Resurrection of the just here, Christ the firstfruits followed by those at His coming, then once the Kingdom on earth is completed He will deliver it to the Father and destroy death. We see then from 1 Corinthians they that are Christ at His coming will be snatched away, 2 Thessalonians that the Church will not go through the tribulation which is coming upon all that persecute the Church, then we see the Kingdom coming and then Christ will deliver the Earthly Kingdom to the Father in Heaven. If the Kingdom is occurring today then it is in Heaven and there would be no need for Christ to deliver it to the Father because it would already be in Heaven with the Father.

 

[revmwc]

I don't accept the false doctrine of dispensationalism no matter who spouts it. No one has responded to the Scripture I presented showing that the six promises of Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Phillip Mauro makes the same assertion I do in my recent posts. No response, only snide remarks!

Yes they have and I showed you the post and you haven't answered where Jesus made a covenant with many for 7 years and broke it at the 3 1/2 year point which DHK has repeatedly ask you to answer.

 

[Iconoclast]

Old Regular

you have answered well and posted correctly evidently some people believe Satan rules over them and not the Lord Jesus Christ.
any person that denies the Lord Jesus Christ rules obviously is not going to be able to understand the scripture at all

 

[revmwc]

Old Regular

you have answered well and posted correctly evidently some people believe Satan rules over them and not the Lord Jesus Christ.
any person that denies the Lord Jesus Christ rules obviously is not going to be able to understand the scripture at all

Define what Jesus rules first.

Christ rules in the lives of all who have received Christ.

But satan is allowed to hinder believers, 1 Thessalonians 2:17-19,
17 "But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"


Satan hindered Paul and his party. But the Lord Jesus is coming satan cannot prevent that and He is coming to snatch His Bride out, the church. Then we see, 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10,
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

There is one coming "whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

Wow Paul and His dispensational teaching.

2 Corinthians 2:10-12,

10 "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,"

Satan can gain an advantage on believers Paul says, but the Lord can overrule satan and open doors.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Satan can deceive by making himself into a messenger of light. So too can his ministers be transformed and preach as if they have honey dripping from their mouth's and I have seen a few of those and rejected them.

Acts 26:17-19,
17 "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:"

Satan has an influence upon all that are unbelievers and this world. We see that as a witness for Christ we are to help the unbeliever and to "turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan." Satan has a great influence upon this world Scripture makes it very clear.

We are now under Christ if we have received Him as our savior because we have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and when we have confessed our sin we are filled with the Holy Spirit so that we are controlled by and influenced and walk by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Not so with the unbeliever.

Ephesians 2:1-3,

1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Notice that satan is the prince and power of the air, that word in the Greek is atmosphere which is the earth's atmosphere, he is the Prince. So Icon define what Prince means!

Jesus said it himself,

John 14:29-31,

9 "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence."

Satan was coming to bring Christ death, His influence upon those who crucified Him. But, Jesus called satan "the prince of this world."

So do you believe that since Jesus taught that satan was the prince of the world, Paul also taught it so does this apply to them? " any person that denies the Lord Jesus Christ rules obviously is not going to be able to understand the scripture at all" For Jesus said satan was "the prince of the world" Paul said it too so do they fit into your statement?

Jesus has made us Revelation 1:6, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

So we have authority too because of our faith in Christ, yet satan is called the prince of this world and the prince of the air, that hasn't changed.

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmac

Jesus rules the world I live in.Satan is a defeated enemy.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST rules over everything in Heaven and earth.

All biblical Christians have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

I read in scripture that unbelievers will not confess Jesus as Lord and they deny He reigns .

Rev 12 outlines how satan attempted but failed to prevent the birth of the male child.Satan failed in lk4 to stop the Lord.Satan was defeated at the cross.

 

[OldRegular]

Revmac

Jesus rules the world I live in.Satan is a defeated enemy.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST rules over everything in Heaven and earth.

All biblical Christians have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

I read in scripture that unbelievers will not confess Jesus as Lord and they deny He reigns .

Rev 12 outlines how satan attempted but failed to prevent the birth of the male child.Satan failed in lk4 to stop the Lord.Satan was defeated at the cross.

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[OldRegular]

Consider again Daniel 9:26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

In the first sentence we read of the murder of Jesus Christ on a Roman Cross AFTER 69 weeks. What happens at sometime following that murder?

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Above we have the prophecy of the events Jesus Christ promises in Matthew 24, the destruction of the Temple {sanctuary} and Jerusalem {the city} which happened in 70AD at the hands of the Roman Army. Therefore, the second clause of Verse 26 was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Now consider Daniel 9:27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The big question is what is the antecedent of the pronoun HE? Is it the "Messiah" or "the people of the prince" of verse 26 . Now obviously HE does not refer to "the people of the prince" for at least two reasons, HE is singular, the people is plural, "the people of the prince" made no covenant with the Jews before they destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70AD. Therefore the HE of verse 27 can only refer to the "Messiah", Jesus the Christ of verse 26.

Now consider the first sentence of verse 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: In the YLT this sentence reads: And he hath strengthened a covenant with many--one week. There is no "FOR" in the original language. The same truth is shown in the GLT. This sentence simply states that during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy the Messiah shall strengthen, cause to prevail, or make a covenant with the many. There is no date specified for the end of that covenant. In fact it is an everlasting covenant. The impact of that Covenant is that in the middle of the 70th week, or 3.5 years the Messiah [shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.[/i]

From verse 9:26 we learn that "Messiah" {Jesus Christ} shall be murdered during the 70th week. Verse 9:27 tells us that "Messiah" shall be murdered in the middle of the week. All this is in accord with Scripture:

Isaiah 53:3-7
3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Before he was murdered Jesus Christ said;

John 18:37. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

And what does the sacrifice of Jesus Christ accomplish? It establishes the New Covenant. It also fulfills the six promises of Daniel 9:24 as I have shown earlier! Scripture is very clearly that the shed blood of Jesus Christ established the New Covenant. The following Scripture are from the ASV or NASV which uses "covenant" rather than "testament" as does the KJV.

Matthew 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24. And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Luke 22:20. And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

1 Corinthians 11:25. In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

This New Covenant was initially promised through the prophet Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now dispensationalists will deny that this Covenant is for the redeemed, the Church, but that claim is nonsense in light of the Scripture presented in Hebrews.

Hebrews 8:1-13, NASB
1. Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2. a minister in the sanctuary, and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5. who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”
6. But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8. For finding fault with them, He says, “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10. “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM UPON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11. “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12. “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
13. When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

In verse 13 we read: When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

We see here fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 9:27:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The death of Jesus Christ in the middle of the 70th week brought an end to the need for bloody sacrifices in the Temple. The fact that these bloody sacrifices continued were an abomination before GOD. Thus in accord with the promise of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 GOD had the temple destroyed in 70AD by "the people of the prince", the Armies of Rome; the same Rome with which the Jews conspired to murder the Messiah and our Savior.

Continued:

 

[OldRegular]

Continued from previous post!

But the Book of Hebrews has more to say about this New Covenant and the manner in which it was instituted:

Hebrews 9:11-18, NASB
11. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14. how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
17. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
18. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

The use of the prophecy of Daniel regarding the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the redemption of HIS people by the pre-trib-dispensationalists to justify their false doctrine is a perversion of Scripture of the highest order.

Their doctrine that the Church is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel is a perversion of Scripture of the highest order. Their insistence that the Temple will be rebuilt and bloody sacrifices reinstated during a so-called Jewish millennium, while Jesus Christ in the Glory of the Godhead supposedly sits on David's throne in the Temple, is a perversion of Scripture and implies that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross was also a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel. Blasphemy!

 

[OldRegular]

So we have authority too because of our faith in Christ, yet satan is called the prince of this world and the prince of the air, that hasn't changed.

You ignore who is KING OF THE UNIVERSE!


1 Timothy 1:17. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 17:14. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular

you have answered well and posted correctly evidently some people believe Satan rules over them and not the Lord Jesus Christ.
any person that denies the Lord Jesus Christ rules obviously is not going to be able to understand the scripture at all

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