The much longed-for Abortion thread

[BobRyan]

The fact remains the SDA Website (Official) makes it VERY what the SDA teaches about abortion.

Not true at all-- making stuff up does not help your case in this matter.

You may go to a great many SDA congregations world wide and find the same anti-abortion position that I have stated here. It is not a problem for the SDA denomination since there is no pro-abortion doctrinal position that would be contradicted by all these anti-abortion pastors, congregations etc. You seem to want to argue "yes but if we ignore all the facts ... what then??"

As I said before - it is only the RCC that can actually CHANGE the problem that we face in America. Those who want to actually DO something (vs a flat out nothing approach) would have to at least come to the point of "admitting to the obvious facts"

 

[BobRyan]

Are Catholic judges pastors? !

Would Catholic Judges on SCOTUS - all voting anti-abortion change anything? make a difference??

YES!!!

What if the RC members of congress did the same -- would that change abortion in America???

YES!!!

Notice that in my statements I don't make the gross errors that the anti-SDA voices make on this thread. I do not claim that the pro-abortion position of the Catholic Judges and catholic members of congress, represents the Pope's views or yours -- I simply point that the element that currently HAS CONTROL over this subject - is the CATHOLIC element on the SCOTUS and in congress.

This my friends -- is irrefutable.

 

[utilyan]

1. the only doctrines that the SDA church has that are voted by the entire denomination -- are listed in the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

2. The only group whose actual vote on the SCOTUS and/or Congress could in fact change the abortion problem in America - (were they to actually value that issue above politics) is the RCC.

3 The SDA church never voted abortion into American life -- and no vote by a few administrators of the SDA church could remove the problem from America.

These facts do not "change" simply because this or that person wants to chase BobRyan (who never votes in favor of abortion) around on the BaptistBoard on this topic

I think we all knew that to start with.

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/guidelines/article/go/-/abortion/

These guidelines were approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/meetings/executive-committee/
========
ARTICLE XIII—GENERAL CONFERENCE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE Sec. 1. a. During the intervals between Sessions of the General Conference, the General Conference Executive Committee is delegated the authority to act on behalf of the General Conference in Session. The membership of the General Conference Executive Committee includes representatives of all the divisions of the world field and the presidents of all unions and therefore speaks for the world Church. Major items affecting the world Church are considered at the Council meetings of the General Conference Executive Committee, when all the members of the Committee are invited to be present. The authority, therefore, of the General Conference Executive Committee is the authority of the world Church.



B 15 General Conference and North American Division Working Policies B 15 05 Authoritative Administrative Voice of the Church—The General Conference Working Policy contains the Constitution and Bylaws of the General Conference, the Mission Statement, and the accumulated or revised policies adopted by General Conference Sessions and Annual Councils of the General Conference Committee. It is, therefore, the authoritative voice of the Church in all matters pertaining to the mission and to the administration of the work of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination in all parts of the world. The North American Division has developed its own working policy which is based on and is in harmony with the General Conference Working Policy.
==============


The authority, therefore, of the General Conference Executive Committee is the authority of the world Church.



ABORTION APPROVED:

These guidelines were approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.


The website I showed is the OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE. It shows the OFFICIAL
GUIDELINES concerning abortions it is signed by the HIGHEST AUTHORITY IN THE SDA CHURCH.


You know how many SDA protest abortions?


It only took you like one and a half years to get you to say you are against abortion.

Tell us now the GENERAL CONFERENCE of the SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. Is a FALSE CHURCH.


It does not take rocket science to explain ABORTION is MURDER. That official statement from the sda says they support abortion, they have hospitals who still do abortions.


I'm showing you the council session that approved abortion!

 

[Walter]

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/guidelines/article/go/-/abortion/

These guidelines were approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/meetings/executive-committee/
========
ARTICLE XIII—GENERAL CONFERENCE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE Sec. 1. a. During the intervals between Sessions of the General Conference, the General Conference Executive Committee is delegated the authority to act on behalf of the General Conference in Session. The membership of the General Conference Executive Committee includes representatives of all the divisions of the world field and the presidents of all unions and therefore speaks for the world Church. Major items affecting the world Church are considered at the Council meetings of the General Conference Executive Committee, when all the members of the Committee are invited to be present. The authority, therefore, of the General Conference Executive Committee is the authority of the world Church.



B 15 General Conference and North American Division Working Policies B 15 05 Authoritative Administrative Voice of the Church—The General Conference Working Policy contains the Constitution and Bylaws of the General Conference, the Mission Statement, and the accumulated or revised policies adopted by General Conference Sessions and Annual Councils of the General Conference Committee. It is, therefore, the authoritative voice of the Church in all matters pertaining to the mission and to the administration of the work of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination in all parts of the world. The North American Division has developed its own working policy which is based on and is in harmony with the General Conference Working Policy.
==============


The authority, therefore, of the General Conference Executive Committee is the authority of the world Church.



ABORTION APPROVED:

These guidelines were approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.


The website I showed is the OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE. It shows the OFFICIAL
GUIDELINES concerning abortions it is signed by the HIGHEST AUTHORITY IN THE SDA CHURCH.


You know how many SDA protest abortions?


It only took you like one and a half years to get you to say you are against abortion.

Tell us now the GENERAL CONFERENCE of the SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. Is a FALSE CHURCH.


It does not take rocket science to explain ABORTION is MURDER. That official statement from the sda says they support abortion, they have hospitals who still do abortions.


I'm showing you the council session that approved abortion!

Now, just a simple question to you Bob. We find here that your General Conference guidelines says that if a woman has been raped or is pregnant as a result of incest that abortion is acceptable. Do you agree with your church on that?????

 

[Walter]

Your comment on this video, please. It has posted on this thread before and you ignored it. Is this young man 'making things up' too?

 

[utilyan]

Would Catholic Judges on SCOTUS - all voting anti-abortion change anything? make a difference??

YES!!!

What if the RC members of congress did the same -- would that change abortion in America???

YES!!!

Notice that in my statements I don't make the gross errors that the anti-SDA voices make on this thread. I do not claim that the pro-abortion position of the Catholic Judges and catholic members of congress, represents the Pope's views or yours -- I simply point that the element that currently HAS CONTROL over this subject - is the CATHOLIC element on the SCOTUS and in congress.

This my friends -- is irrefutable.

Rob, Hitler was a Catholic, ran an entire country, What he did was against Catholic teaching. A whole courtroom could have voted for abortion even the pope do it himself, that does not change Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching is abortion is wrong.

We are showing it is SDA teaching that abortion is okay.

Abortion was approved by the GC:

These guidelines were approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.


The GC is the WHOLE CHURCH of the SDA.

ARTICLE XIII—GENERAL CONFERENCE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE Sec. 1. a. During the intervals between Sessions of the General Conference, the General Conference Executive Committee is delegated the authority to act on behalf of the General Conference in Session. The membership of the General Conference Executive Committee includes representatives of all the divisions of the world field and the presidents of all unions and therefore speaks for the world Church. Major items affecting the world Church are considered at the Council meetings of the General Conference Executive Committee, when all the members of the Committee are invited to be present. The authority, therefore, of the General Conference Executive Committee is the authority of the world Church.


You are trying to point at Catholics to bring them down to your level, Catholics already been there, we are pointing that THE HOLY TEACHING which says abortion is wrong because EVERY HUMAN LIFE is sacred.

 

[BobRyan]

Not true at all-- making stuff up does not help your case in this matter.

You may go to a great many SDA congregations world wide and find the same anti-abortion position that I have stated here. It is not a problem for the SDA denomination since there is no pro-abortion doctrinal position that would be contradicted by all these anti-abortion pastors, congregations etc. You seem to want to argue "yes but if we ignore all the facts ... what then??"

As I said before - it is only the RCC that can actually CHANGE the problem that we face in America. Those who want to actually DO something (vs a flat out nothing approach) would have to at least come to the point of "admitting to the obvious facts"

Rob, Hitler was a Catholic, ran an entire country,

True and if Hitler had been a little less dark-ages-Catholic a little less Spanish-inquisition-Catholic towards Jewish Germans ... we might have had a different world. Can't blame that on SDAs either.

Just like Abortion today - if the SCOTUS RC Judges could just vote against abortion the way this SDA does (and almost every SDA I know does ) - what a great America this would be.

Sadly that is not what they are doing.

You knew that ... right??

But if all the SDAs on SCOTUS and all the SDAs in congress vote against abortion ... like Me.. well we would still be nowhere.

You knew that... right??

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

Your comment on this video, please. It has posted on this thread before and you ignored it. Is this young man 'making things up' too?

Interesting that even that video admits that the abortion statement a few administrators dreamed up - is not something that the world church voted for ...

The point remains.

 

[utilyan]

True and if Hitler had been a little less dark-ages-Catholic a little less Spanish-inquisition-Catholic towards Jewish Germans ... we might have had a different world. Can't blame that on SDAs either.

Just like Abortion today - if the SCOTUS RC Judges could just vote against abortion the way this SDA does (and almost every SDA I know does ) - what a great America this would be.

Sadly that is not what they are doing.

You knew that ... right??

But if all the SDAs on SCOTUS and all the SDAs in congress vote against abortion ... like Me.. well we would still be nowhere.

You knew that... right??

The point remains.

Actually 93% SDA would vote for abortion like they did in 1992. You are trying to hide the truth by making others look dirty.

We Catholics are #1 Evil I'll agree with that. And there is only room for one evil empire. So we can't have you outshine us by MURDERING CHILDREN via abortion.

 

[utilyan]

Interesting that even that video admits that the abortion statement a few administrators dreamed up - is not something that the world church voted for ...

The point remains.

You didn't watch the whole thing. You presumed like you do with everything else in life.

 

[BobRyan]

You didn't watch the whole thing. You presumed like you do with everything else in life.

You didn't notice that by having the RCC judges on SCOTUS vote against abortion - the problem goes away.
And having all the SDA judges on SCOTUS vote against abortion - changes nothing.

Your pursuit of "changing nothing" ... noted.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually 93% SDA would vote for abortion like they did in 1992. .

Utterly false.

There was not gathering of the world church to vote on abortion in 1992 .. we meet every 5 years and in the 90's that would have been 1990 and in 1995.

Stories ... vs ... historic fact. I prefer facts.

“Gainer documents that the early Adventists, including James and Ellen White, J. N. Andrews, and Dr. John H. Kellogg, opposed abortion. This pro-life position reflected the prevailing attitude in the medical community in general after the discovery, in 1827, of the human ovum. Although scientists had understood that mammals’ procreation involved some sort of female egg and male sperm, the mechanism and structures of human conception were not known.3 This discovery resulted in scientists realizing that “a distinct human life was created through the fertilization of the ovum with a sperm.”4 As a result of this realization, the first right-to-life movement in the United States, led by Dr. Horatio Robinson Storer, formed under the name “The Physician’s Crusade Against Abortion” during the years 1850 to 1890. The founding Adventists supported this popular position which, significantly, opposed the common practice of abortion prior to the stunning discovery of the ovum in the 1820s.

The Physician’s Crusade was successful in effecting anti-abortion legislation in the United States, and once those laws were in place, the public debate over abortion cooled. Gainer quotes Kristin Luker in her 1984 book, Abortion & the Politics of Motherhood, saying that the next 70 years became known as the “century of silence”,5 and Christians as well as society in general held a strong anti-abortion stance into the 20th century.”

By contrast SCOTUS meets every month and so also does congress with all of its pro-abortion catholic members. If those Catholics would vote against abortion - the problem in the U.S. would end.

 

[Walter]

The guidelines that have been posted several times on this thread and others were approved and voted by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992.

The website I and others posted is the OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE. It shows the OFFICIAL
GUIDELINES (postition) concerning abortions. 'It is signed by the HIGHEST AUTHORITY IN THE SDA CHURCH'. You run from these pro-abortion guidelines and say that the official position of your apostate church is the fault of cultural Catholic judges. Your apostate leadership is responsible for it's Moloch worship.and the OFFICIAL GUIDELINES (pro-abortion position) of your 'church' period!!! Can't have a ham-sandwich in your Adventist hospital cafeteria but sure can have a baby killed. Why aren't you confronting your leadership??? I think I know why.

Please address the SDA official statement on abortion. You are very reluctant to do so. Saying they only put their stamp of approval on 'choice' because of cultural Catholics isn't convincing anyone except yourself. There is nothing more I need to know about a denomination other than whether it is pro-choice or not.

 

[BobRyan]

The guidelines that have been posted several times on this thread ...

Please address the SDA official statement on abortion. You are very reluctant to do so.

Those ideas of "a few administrators" are in fact - NOT in the doctrinal statement of 28 Fundamental beliefs that all SDAs affirm and are not voted by the world church when it comes to anything on abortion. As you have been told dozens of times -- why are you so reluctant to admit it??

If all Catholic judges on the Supreme Court voted against abortion... no more abortion.

As for "SDA church doctrine" we have a published 28 fundamental beliefs - and not one of them favors abortion. Not one.

-- details details.

 

[utilyan]

Those ideas of "a few administrators" are in fact - NOT in the doctrinal statement of 28 Fundamental beliefs that all SDAs affirm and are not voted by the world church when it comes to anything on abortion. As you have been told dozens of times -- why are you so reluctant to admit it??

We can play this game Bob,

Tell us the official SDA website is false and the General Conference is False.


These are written in your SDA constitution.

I can claim myself "28" fundemental beleifs so I am self proclaimed PROPHET of the church. What is official and what is not?

This is why the SDA church is a corporation, You have a official SDA website.
Their constitution states: The membership of the General Conference Executive Committee includes representatives of all the divisions of the world field and the presidents of all unions and therefore speaks for the world Church.


Bob if that is a false SDA website , lets do something about it!

 

[Walter]

We can play this game Bob,

Tell us the official SDA website is false and the General Conference is False.


These are written in your SDA constitution.

I can claim myself "28" fundemental beleifs so I am self proclaimed PROPHET of the church. What is official and what is not?

This is why the SDA church is a corporation, You have a official SDA website.
Their constitution states: The membership of the General Conference Executive Committee includes representatives of all the divisions of the world field and the presidents of all unions and therefore speaks for the world Church.


Bob if that is a false SDA website , lets do something about it!

All you will get from Bob is blaming cultural Catholic judges for the position CLEARLY state on the OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE supporting a women's choice to murder her baby. Again, Bob, what is the official position of the SDA in regards to abortion if not what we read with 'our lying eyes'?

Utilyan is right! If that is a made-up site, what are you doing about it?? Surely your church has a clear pro-life statement regarding abortion elsewhere, right? A pro-life position by the Adventist church is attainable by simply empowering the same entity that approved the abortions guidelines to disapprove it. I suspect filthy lucre will prevent that from ever happening. Adventists hospitals 'loves them some abortion!'.

 

[Walter]

Still waiting for that SDA website that states Adventists are pro-life. I did my best to scare one up on the web myself. Nada! Can you help me out, Bob?

 

[Walter]

The following is what Nic Samojluk (SDA) learned about his church. It was the topic of his doctrinal dissertation entitled: 'From Pro-life to Pro-choice: The Dramatic Shift in Seventh-day Adventists Attitudes Towards Abortion.'
'From the moment of its inception the members of the Seventh-day Adventist [SDA] religious denomination portrayed themselves as the apocalyptic Remnant that keeps the commandments of God in the midst of almost universal apostasy. One of those commandments clearly forbids killing, yet abortions are taking place inside SDA operated hospitals, both therapeutic and even elective in some of them, while conflicting statements are made by leading officials of the church, with the current president of the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist affirming that the SDA church is pro-life. To elucidate this apparently enigmatic contradiction, the author of this study decided to investigate this incongruous ethical situation, and made the following discoveries:
The early SDA pioneers manifested a most determined opposition to abortion.


The leaders of the church did delegate the decision power dealing with abortion to the ethicists connected with the medical institutions of the church.

Most SDA owned hospitals were providing therapeutic abortion several years before the legalization of abortion.

Fear of revenue loss prompted some SDA hospitals to offer abortion on demand in response to the demands of non-Adventists physicians employed by the church.

One of these church-owned institutions was recently labeled as an “abortion mill” by a leading church official.

When pressed for an official statement by the church back in 1970, Neal Wilson, the president of the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists at the time predicted that the church would adopt a pro-choice position regarding abortion, and rationalized said practice as a reasonable way to control the world hunger and population.

The official Guidelines on Abortion document voted by the church seems to be a mixture of lofty pro-life statements mingled with pro-choice exceptions that render the apparently pro-life policy meaningless.

Said official Guidelines on Abortion are non-prescriptive in nature, and each SDA institution is free to set their own policies dealing with abortion.

Official church documents call for the protection of human life, but a leading SDA ethicist has declared that the church has decided not to pinpoint when human life begins.

Several of the leading pro-life movers within the SDA church have since left the community in order to pursue their independent ministries. (No Surprise, eh Bob?)

There has been a seemingly dramatic shift in the SDA church’s attitude towards the sanctity of human life immediately prior and following the legalization of abortion by the Supreme Court of theUnited States of America.

The response by Bob Ryan? 'Our church wouldn't be pro-choice if it were not for Catholics!' Apparently, the SDA takes it's cues from cultural Catholics.

 

[Salty]

Bob - here is the SBC Bap Faith and Message - Article XVIII
Check the first sentence of the last paragraph.

Now can you do the same with the SDA Doctrine statement
(if you have already done the - please give me the post #)

 

[Walter]

Salty, according to Ted N.C. Wilson, President, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, life begins at first breath. "life at conception is just rationalization of the unknown.".

What exactly is unknown, that it is alive, that it is fully human, that it's the beginning of every person's history? Why is it the unanimous conclusion of secular science that every human life begins at conception? Why was it the unanimous theological conclusion of every founding Seventh-day Adventist leader? Why does the church advocate the necessity of prenatal care if life at conception is merely a rationalization of the unknown?

The SDA, of which Bob claims bases ALL their teaching on the bible, elected this man as their General Conference President, so they must be convinced he is competent to lead and speak for the denomination. What more do we need to know about the SDA? Apparently, the SDA is suggesting that John the Baptist may not have been alive when he "leaped for joy"?

More information on the SDA's pro-choice position:

Abortion in Adventism