The Music Debate Today

[AustinC]

The two accounts have key differences. For the former, the Holy Spirit inspired for our profit explicit revelation that concerned the sound of the composite sound emanating from the camp that was heard by Joshua and Moses at a distance from the camp:

Exod. 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

Why did the Spirit want us to know this information? Why is it in Scripture? How are we supposed to profit from it?

So that we worship God, not images made by man.

Again, provide regulations against types of music or admit you have none and you are merely bringing up your own preference of music.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So that we worship God, not images made by man.

To teach that truth, there would have been no need to give detailed information about the exchange between Joshua and Moses that was specifically about what the music sounded like from a distance such that what the actual words were that were being sung could not be heard with understanding.

This passage proves that God has called attention to what the composite sound of worship music sounded like regardless of what lyrics were being sung.

It refutes the position that you and others take that it is only the content of the lyrics that matter. The Spirit has specifically called our attention in this passage not to what was sung but to what the composite sound of what was being sung, played, etc. sounded like from a distance.

 

[AustinC]

To teach that truth, there would have been no need to give detailed information about the exchange between Joshua and Moses that was specifically about what the music sounded like from a distance such that what the actual words were that were being sung could not be heard with understanding.

This passage proves that God has called attention to what the composite sound of worship music sounded like regardless of what lyrics were being sung.

It refutes the position that you and others take that it is only the content of the lyrics that matter. The Spirit has specifically called our attention in this passage not to what was sung but to what the composite sound of what was being sung, played, etc. sounded like from a distance.

Tell us what regulation on music God has given. If you have none, then you assertions are simply opinion.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Tell us what regulation on music God has given. If you have none, then you assertions are simply opinion.

You need to learn what God has revealed and let it instruct you instead of demanding that God give you the kind of information that you want. His wisdom is perfect.

Exodus 32:17-18 refutes your view that it is only the content of the words that matter. You need to honor God by submitting to that revelation and changing your mind about that point.

This passage also teaches us that God has called our attention to what the sound of worship music that was heard from a distance sounded like of people who were in fellowship with demons. You need to accept therefore that God has called our attention in this passage to the issue of demonic music produced by people who are in contact with demons.

 

[AustinC]

You need to learn what God has revealed and let it instruct you instead of demanding that God give you the kind of information that you want. His wisdom is perfect.

Exodus 32:17-18 refutes your view that it is only the content of the words that matter. You need to honor God by submitting to that revelation and changing your mind about that point.

This passage also teaches us that God has called our attention to what the sound of worship music that was heard from a distance sounded like of people who were in fellowship with demons. You need to accept therefore that God has called our attention in this passage to the issue of demonic music produced by people who are in contact with demons.

So, you have no scripture and tell me I need to learn what God has revealed.
You have proven me correct. You are simply spouting your own opinion and demanding that your opinion be obeyed. That is legalism and graceless.
You cannot provide scripture therefore this conversation is over.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So, you have no scripture and tell me I need to learn what God has revealed.
You have proven me correct. You are simply spouting your own opinion and demanding that your opinion be obeyed. That is legalism and graceless.
You cannot provide scripture therefore this conversation is over.

Wrong. Exodus 32:17-18 is in Scripture. You are refusing to learn from God according to how He has perfectly chosen to teach us.

 

[AustinC]

Wrong. Exodus 32:17-18 is in Scripture. You are refusing to learn from God according to how He has perfectly chosen to teach us.

Indeed Exodus 32 is in scripture, but it is not a regulative law imparted to you and me regarding what music is righteous music and what music is evil music.
You have no such regulation and the verses you use do not make such regulation no matter how desperately you cling to them.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Indeed Exodus 32 is in scripture, but it is not a regulative law imparted to you and me regarding what music is righteous music and what music is evil music.

Your understanding is not correct. The apostle Paul commands us as NT Christians in 1 Corinthians 10 that we are not to be idolaters:

1 Cor. 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

He cites Exodus 32:6d as his explicit biblical support for that command:

Exod. 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Paul's use of Exodus 32:6 in 1 Cor. 10:7 makes Exodus 32 of direct authoritative importance for how we as Christians must live our lives. We are therefore commanded not to do what the Israelites did in the GCI in their idolatrous eating, drinking, and playing.

Exodus 32:17-18 is explicit biblical revelation about what they did in their idolatrous playing. It therefore has direct importance in teaching us what we are not to do musically.

 

[AustinC]

Your understanding is not correct. The apostle Paul commands us as NT Christians in 1 Corinthians 10 that we are not to be idolaters:

1 Cor. 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

He cites Exodus 32:6d as his explicit biblical support for that command:

Exod. 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Paul's use of Exodus 32:6 in 1 Cor. 10:7 makes Exodus 32 of direct authoritative importance for how we as Christians must live our lives. We are therefore commanded not to do what the Israelites did in the GCI in their idolatrous eating, drinking, and playing.

Exodus 32:17-18 is explicit biblical revelation about what they did in their idolatrous playing. It therefore has direct importance in teaching us what we are not to do musically.

What form of music makes me an idolator? Classical music? Perhaps Bluegrass, or maybe Barbershop quartet? Or Jazz? Maybe Blues? Or R&B (two types in one)? Tell us what form of music was played at Mt Sinai? I will wait for you to provide the form of music that Christians should never play since you seem to think God has spoken.

 

[AustinC]

Is Propaganda's hip hop/spoken word prohibited by God?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Tell us what form of music was played at Mt Sinai?

This is where you are greatly mistaken. Had God regarded it important or necessary to tell us the specific kind(s) of music that were played on that occasion, He could have easily done so.

Instead, in His perfect wisdom, He has not done so because that is not the information that we need. What we need is to learn from God what a fully biblical theology of music is by paying attention to and accepting fully everything that He has revealed in Scripture that pertains to music.

 

[JonC]

To teach that truth, there would have been no need to give detailed information about the exchange between Joshua and Moses that was specifically about what the music sounded like from a distance such that what the actual words were that were being sung could not be heard with understanding.

This passage proves that God has called attention to what the composite sound of worship music sounded like regardless of what lyrics were being sung.

It refutes the position that you and others take that it is only the content of the lyrics that matter. The Spirit has specifically called our attention in this passage not to what was sung but to what the composite sound of what was being sung, played, etc. sounded like from a distance.

That is cultural. How did the music sound at the time of Moses? Not like Western worship music. Would we recognize the music Moses heard as worship music? No.

To make your argument worse, traditional worship music was once contemporary.

We are to worship in spirit and truth, regardless as to how it sounds to your ears.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

That is cultural. How did the music sound at the time of Moses? Not like Western worship music. Would we recognize the music Moses heard as worship music? No.

To make your argument worse, traditional worship music was once contemporary.

We are to worship in spirit and truth, regardless as to how it sounds to your ears.

It does not matter whether some or all the music at the time of Moses did not sound like some or even all of Western worship music. Making that statement does not prove that it is "cultural."

Moreover, you do not have any proof that none of the music of the time of Moses sounded anything like any of our music today. That is pure assertion on your part.

Furthermore, no, how music sounds regardless of any consideration of the content of the lyrics is a crucial aspect of whether that music is acceptable to God or not.

 

[JonC]

It does not matter whether some or all the music at the time of Moses did not sound like some or even all of Western worship music. Making that statement does not prove that it is "cultural."

Moreover, you do not have any proof that none of the music of the time of Moses sounded anything like any of our music today. That is pure assertion on your part.

Furthermore, no, how music sounds regardless of any consideration of the content of the lyrics is a crucial aspect of whether that music is acceptable to God or not.

No, it is not an assertion.

Occident worship music is typically sing in unison. We also employ substantial harmony.

Hebrew music was based on small groups of tones (makams) , each belonging to a distinct Oriental musical scale.

Our instruments differ. We normally do not use wind instruments. Hebrew worship music incorporated wind, string, and percussion instruments.

 

[JonC]

Here's the closest example we may have (1300 BC). It's the oldest music we have. The music, and instrument, described on a clay tablet. It is ANE music.

Western music is built on harmony. This is not true of Eastern music.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

No, it is not an assertion.

Occident worship music is typically sing in unison. We also employ substantial harmony.

Hebrew music was based on small groups of tones (makams) , each belonging to a distinct Oriental musical scale.

Our instruments differ. We normally do not use wind instruments. Hebrew worship music incorporated wind, string, and percussion instruments.

We often sing one verse of hymns in unison in worship in my church.

We routinely use wind instruments in worship at my church.

Your claim about makams is an interesting one that I will have to research further. Nonetheless, I am confident that you do not have any evidence that decisively shows that all music of God's people in all locations in biblical times was based on and limited to the use of makams.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Western music is built on harmony. This is not true of Eastern music.

So what? I have not made any claims about Western music versus Eastern music, etc.

 

[JonC]

We often sing one verse of hymns in unison in worship in my church.

Yes. That is my point. We have a different culture. They didn't.

My church uses percussion and string instruments. But not the same instruments. I'm not sure my church's musicians would be able to play a 9 stringed lyre. We have guitars, drums and a keyboard. And a piano, and sometimes wind instruments (horns and flutes). But nothing like a shofar.

And the music at my church is Western (it is based on harmony and an Occident scale). Our music is based primarily on harmony (rather than rhythm).

If your church worships using Eastern music that is fine. It is closer to what you would have experienced in Hebrew and early Christian worship. I'd love to hear the music (particularly the shofar) if you can upload a sample.

 

[AustinC]

This is where you are greatly mistaken. Had God regarded it important or necessary to tell us the specific kind(s) of music that were played on that occasion, He could have easily done so.

Instead, in His perfect wisdom, He has not done so because that is not the information that we need. What we need is to learn from God what a fully biblical theology of music is by paying attention to and accepting fully everything that He has revealed in Scripture that pertains to music.

So, you have zero regulations found in scripture.

We do see people worshipping other gods and we know this is sin. But, there is no specific regulation of the type of music God desires. 361 laws, with prescriptions for the type of incense to use, but not one law on the type of music to be used. Why do you suppose God was so specific on so many details of life with the Hebrews, but he stayed silent on types of music to be played?

Yet, here you are making extremely vague demands and saying God has a legal demand regarding the type of music he requires. If you wish to win this debate you only need to provide the detailed regulations God has prescribed to the types of music he desires. At present you simply show that God hates it when his people worship other gods. Then you attempt to tie it to a music that you, personally, don't like. That is pure legalism on your part. You have made up rules and have ascribed them to God. Be careful with what you are doing.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yes. That is my point. We have a different culture. They didn't.

My church uses percussion and string instruments. But not the same instruments. I'm not sure my church's musicians would be able to play a 9 stringed lyre. We have guitars, drums and a keyboard. And a piano, and sometimes wind instruments (horns and flutes). But nothing like a shofar.

And the music at my church is Western (it is based on harmony and an Occident scale). Our music is based primarily on harmony (rather than rhythm).

If your church worships using Eastern music that is fine. It is closer to what you would have experienced in Hebrew and early Christian worship. I'd love to hear the music (particularly the shofar) if you can upload a sample.

I did not say anything about my church using "Eastern" music. What I said was intended to answer the assertions that you made concerning supposed key differences between "Western" music and "Eastern" music.

In any case, none of what you say here establishes your position that God accepts the use of all kinds of music in worship.