The Music Debate Today

[Scripture More Accurately]

What divine revelation says that all artistic expression by a non-Christian is evil? What verses specifically say that the forms of music you despise are also the music that God despises?
You have none. You're simply being legalistic and creating your own laws.

The normative principle states that if God has not explicitly said it is wrong, you have the freedom in Christ to do it.
Therefore, God does not hate hip hop music. He hates the lyrics that go against his word and he hates the wicked behavior of some people in the music industry, but he doesn't explicitly say that hip hop music itself is wrong.
It is on you to show us the explicit law against hip hop music found in the Bible.

There are many kinds of music from all over the world that God rejects because they are distinctive kinds of music that occultists use in their demonic activities. All such music must be rejected categorically by God's people.

What divine revelation says that all non-verbal artistic expression by either Christians or non-Christians is acceptable to God and fit for use in worship? What verses specifically say that all kinds of music are kinds of music that God accepts for use in worship?

You have none. You are begging key questions about what non-verbal artistic expression God accepts and deems to be fit for use in worship. You are misusing biblical teaching about freedom in Christ to assert implicitly that it encompasses even all the distinctive kinds of music that are the unfruitful works of darkness of wicked humans who serve and worship demons.

The Bible never teaches what you say is "the normative principle." This is a manmade teaching that is false and does not have any Bible to support it.

 

[AustinC]

There are many kinds of music from all over the world that God rejects because they are distinctive kinds of music that occultists use in their demonic activities. All such music must be rejected categorically by God's people.

What divine revelation says that all non-verbal artistic expression by either Christians or non-Christians is acceptable to God and fit for use in worship? What verses specifically say that all kinds of music are kinds of music that God accepts for use in worship?

You have none. You are begging key questions about what non-verbal artistic expression God accepts and deems to be fit for use in worship. You are misusing biblical teaching about freedom in Christ to assert implicitly that it encompasses even all the distinctive kinds of music that are the unfruitful works of darkness of wicked humans who serve and worship demons.

The Bible never teaches what you say is "the normative principle." This is a manmade teaching that is false and does not have any Bible to support it.

Grace and faith, allows for one to eat meat from idols. The same principle found in Romans 14 is the normative principle. God had no problem with Christians eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. The problem came from the persons whose faith was weak and couldn't bear to eat the meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Paul's instructions is to not hinder the brother whose faith is weak. There is no explicit regulative principle on music.
In many indigenous tribes there is singing at the drum. The drum is made from deer skin and tradition ascribes a female spirit upon the drum, but the drum is just deer skin. I have, in the past, been invited to drum with traditional indigenous people (pagans if you will) and I have joined the drum. There is no spirit I am drumming for. It's just drumming. In fact Christian members of the tribe also drum and write songs of honor and praise to our God. It's just a drum.
I perceive that for you, you couldn't sit at the drum. For me, I have no problem. If you were there and I knew your discomfort with a Christian on the drum, I would refrain for your conscience sake so as not to hurt your faith.
The normative principle applies. You are making claims that have no regulations in the Bible, but are sensitive to your personal conscience. For you and your conscience, it is wrong. For others and their conscience, it is not wrong. Romans 14 applies in this issue.

 

[tyndale1946]

Grace and faith, allows for one to eat meat from idols. The same principle found in Romans 14 is the normative principle. God had no problem with Christians eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. The problem came from the persons whose faith was weak and couldn't bear to eat the meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Paul's instructions is to not hinder the brother whose faith is weak. There is no explicit regulative principle on music.
In many indigenous tribes there is singing at the drum. The drum is made from deer skin and tradition ascribes a female spirit upon the drum, but the drum is just deer skin. I have, in the past, been invited to drum with traditional indigenous people (pagans if you will) and I have joined the drum. There is no spirit I am drumming for. It's just drumming. In fact Christian members of the tribe also drum and write songs of honor and praise to our God. It's just a drum.
I perceive that for you, you couldn't sit at the drum. For me, I have no problem. If you were there and I knew your discomfort with a Christian on the drum, I would refrain for your conscience sake so as not to hurt your faith.
The normative principle applies. You are making claims that have no regulations in the Bible, but are sensitive to your personal conscience. For you and your conscience, it is wrong. For others and their conscience, it is not wrong. Romans 14 applies in this issue.

Austin... To those who use musical instruments in their worship... Well that is fine for them... I was a song leader for 35 years in my church and the organ we used was the mouth organ... We sang acapella... There is a fancier type of acapella singing called Sacred Harp for those who sing by shaped notes... We did congregational singing and that was our way, how others conduct their worship is up to them... Wrong or right?... I'll just say... It's wrong for me... Brother Glen

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Musical instruments are man made, the mouth is God made, so is the heart!

 

[AustinC]

Austin... To those who use musical instruments in their worship... Well that is fine for them... I was a song leader for 35 years in my church and the organ we used was the mouth organ... We sang acapella... There is a fancier type of acapella singing called Sacred Harp for those who sing by shaped notes... We did congregational singing and that was our way, how others conduct their worship is up to them... Wrong or right?... I'll just say... It's wrong for me... Brother Glen

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Musical instruments are man made, the mouth is God made, so is the heart!

I suppose David could be wrong when he played his harp and worshipped...

 

[tyndale1946]

I suppose David could be wrong when he played his harp and worshipped...

I knew you were going to ask that question... That is the Old Covenant... We are now in the new... Brother Glen

2 Samuel 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

So you're one of those dancing Baptist?

 

[AustinC]

I knew you were going to ask that question... That is the Old Covenant... We are now in the new... Brother Glen

2 Samuel 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

So you're one of those dancing Baptist?

Just saying that God ordained the making of musical instruments to make a joyful noise. Nothing wrong with the conga.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Grace and faith, allows for one to eat meat from idols. The same principle found in Romans 14 is the normative principle. God had no problem with Christians eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. The problem came from the persons whose faith was weak and couldn't bear to eat the meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Paul's instructions is to not hinder the brother whose faith is weak. There is no explicit regulative principle on music.
In many indigenous tribes there is singing at the drum. The drum is made from deer skin and tradition ascribes a female spirit upon the drum, but the drum is just deer skin. I have, in the past, been invited to drum with traditional indigenous people (pagans if you will) and I have joined the drum. There is no spirit I am drumming for. It's just drumming. In fact Christian members of the tribe also drum and write songs of honor and praise to our God. It's just a drum.
I perceive that for you, you couldn't sit at the drum. For me, I have no problem. If you were there and I knew your discomfort with a Christian on the drum, I would refrain for your conscience sake so as not to hurt your faith.
The normative principle applies. You are making claims that have no regulations in the Bible, but are sensitive to your personal conscience. For you and your conscience, it is wrong. For others and their conscience, it is not wrong. Romans 14 applies in this issue.

No, Romans 14 does not apply in this issue. You are making a faulty comparison between foods and music.

The foods that are offered to idols are not being used for their ordinary purpose as food when they are used in worship. The fact that such foods can in certain non-worship settings be consumed as food after they have been offered to idols does not establish that those foods that had been offered to idols could be then offered in worship to God acceptably.

Furthermore, we know that God created all the animals that are offered to idols, but you do not have any basis to say that God created the kinds of music that wicked people use in demonic activities.

You are therefore misapplying Romans 14.

My views do not have anything to do with my conscience. The NT explicitly says that God commands us to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. You do not have any biblical basis to say that command does not apply to the kinds of music that are distinctively of the occult.

 

[AustinC]

No, Romans 14 does not apply in this issue. You are making a faulty comparison between foods and music.

The foods that are offered to idols are not being used for their ordinary purpose as food when they are used in worship. The fact that such foods can in certain non-worship settings be consumed as food after they have been offered to idols does not establish that those foods that had been offered to idols could be then offered in worship to God acceptably.

Furthermore, we know that God created all the animals that are offered to idols, but you do not have any basis to say that God created the kinds of music that wicked people use in demonic activities.

You are therefore misapplying Romans 14.

My views do not have anything to do with my conscience. The NT explicitly says that God commands us to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. You do not have any biblical basis to say that command does not apply to the kinds of music that are distinctively of the occult.

God created humans in His image. Musical instruments are nothing without someone to produce the sound. Sound is a moral, neither good nor bad. Yet, here you are, attempting to make some sounds evil and other sounds good.
Now, please produce these regulations about sounds that are spoken of in the Bible.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

God created humans in His image. Musical instruments are nothing without someone to produce the sound. Sound is a moral, neither good nor bad. Yet, here you are, attempting to make some sounds evil and other sounds good.
Now, please produce these regulations about sounds that are spoken of in the Bible.

Yes, God created humans in His image. That does not mean that everything that humans produce musically is acceptable to God and fit for use in worship.

You say, "Sound is a moral, neither good nor bad." You have to prove that statement; merely asserting it does not make it so.

Furthermore, I am not "attempting to make some sounds evil and other sounds good." You seem to assume that all kinds of combinations of musical elements are acceptable to God and fit for use in worship. If so, you cannot just assume that this is true; you have to prove that it is true.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, God created humans in His image. That does not mean that everything that humans produce musically is acceptable to God and fit for use in worship.

You say, "Sound is a moral, neither good nor bad." You have to prove that statement; merely asserting it does not make it so.

Furthermore, I am not "attempting to make some sounds evil and other sounds good." You seem to assume that all kinds of combinations of musical elements are acceptable to God and fit for use in worship. If so, you cannot just assume that this is true; you have to prove that it is true.

I prove it by simply saying there is no regulative rules in the Bible against use of instruments or against specific sounds. If there is, then you need to prove it since you are promoting legalism and law. I am stating that grace allows for all forms of music to glorify our King.
In this issue Romans 14 applies. Your conscience dictates to you a legalism regarding music. My conscience declares a freedom regarding music. Your struggle will not force me to change the gracious acceptance of all forms of music as God glorifying.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I prove it by simply saying there is no regulative rules in the Bible against use of instruments or against specific sounds. If there is, then you need to prove it since you are promoting legalism and law. I am stating that grace allows for all forms of music to glorify our King.
In this issue Romans 14 applies. Your conscience dictates to you a legalism regarding music. My conscience declares a freedom regarding music. Your struggle will not force me to change the gracious acceptance of all forms of music as God glorifying.

You have to prove that all music--even all music of the occult--is acceptable to God and fit for use in worship (Eph. 5:10; 1 Thess. 5:21; etc). You do not have any proof and are promoting disobedience to God's commands against having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

Romans 14 does not apply. Categorically rejecting the works of darkness is not a matter of conscience--it is a matter of obedience to God and submission to Him.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

To promote further biblical thinking concerning the issues involved, consider the following information:

Tibet is a country in Asia. There are indigenous people in Tibet who use real human skulls as musical instruments.

Is such musical activity pleasing to God? Should Christians use Tibetan skull drums in worshiping God? Should Christians in their worship of God use the distinctive kinds of music that the indigenous people of Tibet play on their Tibetan skull drums?

 

[AustinC]

You have to prove that all music--even all music of the occult--is acceptable to God and fit for use in worship (Eph. 5:10; 1 Thess. 5:21; etc). You do not have any proof and are promoting disobedience to God's commands against having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

Romans 14 does not apply. Categorically rejecting the works of darkness is not a matter of conscience--it is a matter of obedience to God and submission to Him.

I don't have to prove anything. All I need from you is the specific regulations against various forms of music. Now, provide the legal documents from God that forbid specific musical practices, or admit that God's grace makes no such regulations.

To promote further biblical thinking concerning the issues involved, consider the following information:

Tibet is a country in Asia. There are indigenous people in Tibet who use real human skulls as musical instruments.

Is such musical activity pleasing to God? Should Christians use Tibetan skull drums in worshiping God? Should Christians in their worship of God use the distinctive kinds of music that the indigenous people of Tibet play on their Tibetan skull drums?

This is a perfect example of your legalism. Does God forbid using dead persons bones as musical instruments?
No, God does not forbid it.
Is God displeased when music is made to worship something other than Himself?
Yes, God is only to be worshipped.
Is God displeased when human bones are used to create music that worships him?
We have no regulation against it, therefore, I believe he would be pleased.

SMA, you have a cultural distaste for something and you want everyone to bend to your personal preference as though your preference is God's preference.
No regulation on the matter gives us freedom to make a joyful noise. Since you are the one determined to regulate music, you are the one who must share God's legal regulations on the subject. I am not obligated to show you why I am free. And, if I was obligated, I would point you to Romans 14 as I have already done.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I don't have to prove anything. All I need from you is the specific regulations against various forms of music. Now, provide the legal documents from God that forbid specific musical practices, or admit that God's grace makes no such regulations.


This is a perfect example of your legalism. Does God forbid using dead persons bones as musical instruments?
No, God does not forbid it.
Is God displeased when music is made to worship something other than Himself?
Yes, God is only to be worshipped.
Is God displeased when human bones are used to create music that worships him?
We have no regulation against it, therefore, I believe he would be pleased.

SMA, you have a cultural distaste for something and you want everyone to bend to your personal preference as though your preference is God's preference.
No regulation on the matter gives us freedom to make a joyful noise. Since you are the one determined to regulate music, you are the one who must share God's legal regulations on the subject. I am not obligated to show you why I am free. And, if I was obligated, I would point you to Romans 14 as I have already done.

Wrong. I do not have "a cultural distaste for something . . ."

I know very little about Tibet or its indigenous peoples. I have had no exposure to their culture. I have never heard any Tibetan skull drum music.

It would not matter whether that Tibetan skull drum music was appealing to me or not. Scripture says that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light in order to deceive people. Just because such music might appeal aesthetically to us does not mean that music is pleasing to God, acceptable to Him, and fit for use in worship.

Furthermore, Scripture shows that your reasoning is wrong. Acts 19 records that new believers burned their magic books right after they were saved. You would say that they were "legalists" because the Bible never commands that we cannot use the physical materials of such books for other purposes.

According to your reasoning, they should have scrubbed those books and reused them to make new books with other content, including making new manuscripts of Scripture. You would be wrong in saying that they were "legalists" because they did not make use of those books, which according to your reasoning were just books with no spirits attached to them, etc, just as you claim that drums are just drums, etc.

In the same way that these godly believers in Ephesus destroyed the magic books that they once used for their occult practices, so Christians should not have anything to do with real human skulls that are used by Tibetan occultists to play their occult music.

 

[AustinC]

Wrong. I do not have "a cultural distaste for something . . ."

I know very little about Tibet or its indigenous peoples. I have had no exposure to their culture. I have never heard any Tibetan skull drum music.

It would not matter whether that Tibetan skull drum music was appealing to me or not. Scripture says that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light in order to deceive people. Just because such music might appeal aesthetically to us does not mean that music is pleasing to God, acceptable to Him, and fit for use in worship.

Furthermore, Scripture shows that your reasoning is wrong. Acts 19 records that new believers burned their magic books right after they were saved. You would say that they were "legalists" because the Bible never commands that we cannot use the physical materials of such books for other purposes.

According to your reasoning, they should have scrubbed those books and reused them to make new books with other content, including making new manuscripts of Scripture. You would be wrong in saying that they were "legalists" because they did not make use of those books, which according to your reasoning were just books with no spirits attached to them, etc, just as you claim that drums are just drums, etc.

In the same way that these godly believers in Ephesus destroyed the magic books that they once used for their occult practices, so Christians should not have anything to do with real human skulls that are used by Tibetan occultists to play their occult music.

It's clear you have no scripture. You have your legalism and are grasping for something to try stand superior.
When you have specific regulations against different forms of music, let us know.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

It's clear you have no scripture. You have your legalism and are grasping for something to try stand superior.
When you have specific regulations against different forms of music, let us know.

Sorry, it is you who has been misled by faulty teaching about so-called "legalism." Obeying divine commands given to NT Christians that apostles who were inspired of the Spirit wrote in epistles directed to NT Christians is not "legalism" in any sense.

You would do well to submit yourself to God and obey His commands about not having anything to do with any of the evil works of the occult.

 

[AustinC]

Sorry, it is you who has been misled by faulty teaching about so-called "legalism." Obeying divine commands given to NT Christians that apostles who were inspired of the Spirit wrote in epistles directed to NT Christians is not "legalism" in any sense.

You would do well to submit yourself to God and obey His commands about not having anything to do with any of the evil works of the occult.

You have, so far, provided...zero divine commands regarding music forms that are prohibited. I repeat, you have provided zero divine commands regarding music forms that are prohibited. Therefore, your restrictions are yours alone and not God's. This makes your assertion pure legalism.

Now, you are free to hold your legalism, but don't, for one second, imagine you have divine command for your position. All you have is personal preference which you imagine to be God's command. Sir, your view is not God's view.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You have, so far, provided...zero divine commands regarding music forms that are prohibited. I repeat, you have provided zero divine commands regarding music forms that are prohibited. Therefore, your restrictions are yours alone and not God's. This makes your assertion pure legalism.

Now, you are free to hold your legalism, but don't, for one second, imagine you have divine command for your position. All you have is personal preference which you imagine to be God's command. Sir, your view is not God's view.

God commands His people to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. You, in effect, claim that command does not have anything to do with the distinctive kinds of music of wicked people who engage in demonic activities.

You are begging the question that all kinds of music are acceptable to God, pleasing to Him, and fit for use in worship. You do not have any Bible to support your view.

 

[AustinC]

God commands His people to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. You, in effect, claim that command does not have anything to do with the distinctive kinds of music of wicked people who engage in demonic activities.

You are begging the question that all kinds of music are acceptable to God, pleasing to Him, and fit for use in worship. You do not have any Bible to support your view.

Is music an "unfruitful work of darkness?"
You are making big, huge, sweeping claims with zero regulations from the Bible. You are the one determining the " work of darkness" and telling us this music fits here and that music fits there. You are the epitomy of a legalist.
Just as you claim that I have no biblical support, you have no biblical regulation. Thus the normative principle prevails. You make my point and don't even realize it.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Is music an "unfruitful work of darkness?"

You are asking the wrong question. The right question is, Are some kinds of music "unfruitful works of darkness"?