The Music Debate Today

[AustinC]

My son listens mostly to Christian hip hop. I had forgotten about Stryper, but we were talking about Jars of Clay (a band I like) and I played him a Stryper song. I had also forgotten exactly how bad they were (even back then).

My favorite Christian hip hop artist:

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

1 Pet. 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

This divine revelation shows that we are commanded to be holy in all areas of our lives.

If someone claims that command does not apply at all to how the lyrics are sung in worship or to what instrumental music is used to accompany the singing that is done in worship, he must prove that those views are true because the passage commands us to be holy in "all manner of conversation."

 

[JonC]

1 Pet. 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

This divine revelation shows that we are commanded to be holy in all areas of our lives.

If someone claims that command does not apply at all to how the lyrics are sung in worship or to what instrumental music is used to accompany the singing that is done in worship, he must prove that those views are true because the passage commands us to be holy in "all manner of conversation."

First you'd have to prove that worship music is a conversation. Second you'd have to prove instrumental music is a "manner of conversation".

 

[AustinC]

1 Pet. 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

This divine revelation shows that we are commanded to be holy in all areas of our lives.

If someone claims that command does not apply at all to how the lyrics are sung in worship or to what instrumental music is used to accompany the singing that is done in worship, he must prove that those views are true because the passage commands us to be holy in "all manner of conversation."

Peter is connecting the Old Covenant to the New Covenant because it is the same God and we are His chosen people.

*Leviticus 19: 2*
“Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.
*Leviticus 20:26*
You shall be holy to me, for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

First you'd have to prove that worship music is a conversation. Second you'd have to prove instrumental music is a "manner of conversation".

You are mistaken. "Conversation" in the KJV does not mean a verbal exchange; it signifies one's lifestyle or manner of life.

Conversation

Generally the goings out and in of social intercourse (Eph. 2:3; "4:22; R.V., "manner of life"); one's deportment or course of" life. This word is never used in Scripture in the sense of verbal communication from one to another (Ps. 50:23; Heb. 13:5). "In Phil. 1:27 and 3:20, a different Greek word is used. It there" "means one's relations to a community as a citizen, i.e.," citizenship.​

From CONVERSATION (kingjamesbibleonline.org)​

The Greek word anastrophe signifies "way of life, conduct, behavior" (Shorter Lexicon of the NT, 14).

The text thus specifies that God commands holiness in all of our conduct and behavior. You have to prove that what believers do with instrumental music is an exception to the command.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Peter is connecting the Old Covenant to the New Covenant because it is the same God and we are His chosen people.

*Leviticus 19: 2*
“Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.
*Leviticus 20:26*
You shall be holy to me, for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine.

What you say here is true and does not change the force of the passage at all.

 

[JonC]

You are mistaken. "Conversation" in the KJV does not mean a verbal exchange; it signifies one's lifestyle or manner of life.

Conversation

Generally the goings out and in of social intercourse (Eph. 2:3; "4:22; R.V., "manner of life"); one's deportment or course of" life. This word is never used in Scripture in the sense of verbal communication from one to another (Ps. 50:23; Heb. 13:5). "In Phil. 1:27 and 3:20, a different Greek word is used. It there" "means one's relations to a community as a citizen, i.e.," citizenship.​

From CONVERSATION (kingjamesbibleonline.org)​

The Greek word anastrophe signifies "way of life, conduct, behavior" (Shorter Lexicon of the NT, 14).

The text thus specifies that God commands holiness in all of our conduct and behavior. You have to prove that what believers do with instrumental music is an exception to the command.

I am not mistaken (I did not make a claim for or against your position).

I understand you believe instrumental music equates to one's" deportment or course of life", but I'm not sure it is (which is why I said you must first prove the context of the passage rather than simply ascribing applicability).

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I am not mistaken (I did not make a claim for or against your position).

I understand you believe instrumental music equates to one's" deportment or course of life", but I'm not sure it is (which is why I said you must first prove the context of the passage rather than simply ascribing applicability).

Playing music is an action. All actions are either pleasing to God or they are not (Eccl. 12:14; 2 Cor. 5:10; etc).

The command is to be holy in all our conduct because God Himself is holy (1 Pet. 1:15-16). God's holiness is the standard.

Scripture explicitly declares that God is holy in all His works:

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.​

God is holy in all His works, and commands believers to be holy in all their conduct. The Christian who would assert that what he does musically in worship is exempt from this divine demand must prove that is true, and he must do so from Scripture itself.

 

[AustinC]

Playing music is an action. All actions are either pleasing to God or they are not (Eccl. 12:14; 2 Cor. 5:10; etc).

The command is to be holy in all our conduct because God Himself is holy (1 Pet. 1:15-16). God's holiness is the standard.

Scripture explicitly declares that God is holy in all His works:

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.​

God is holy in all His works, and commands believers to be holy in all their conduct. The Christian who would assert that what he does musically in worship is exempt from this divine demand must prove that is true, and he must do so from Scripture itself.

You need to establish a regulative principle, that God has stated clear regulations regarding what form of music must be played. Otherwise the normative principle is established that what God has not explicitly regulated is therefore acceptable to God by grace.

 

[JonC]

Playing music is an action. All actions are either pleasing to God or they are not (Eccl. 12:14; 2 Cor. 5:10; etc).

The command is to be holy in all our conduct because God Himself is holy (1 Pet. 1:15-16). God's holiness is the standard.

Scripture explicitly declares that God is holy in all His works:

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.​

God is holy in all His works, and commands believers to be holy in all their conduct. The Christian who would assert that what he does musically in worship is exempt from this divine demand must prove that is true, and he must do so from Scripture itself.

Does chewing gum please God?

It is not the action but the spirit behind the action.

1 Corinthians 10:30–31 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You need to establish a regulative principle, that God has stated clear regulations regarding what form of music must be played. Otherwise the normative principle is established that what God has not explicitly regulated is therefore acceptable to God by grace.

You are setting forth a false dichotomy. It is not true that either God must have stated clear regulations specifically about music or all music is acceptable to Him.

God has given many broader statements that apply to all areas of Christian living and worship, including music. God commands believers not to have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11). That command applies to all music that is distinctively of the occult. God does not have to give any specific regulations about such music in order for us to know that music that is distinctively of the occult is unacceptable to Him.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Does chewing gum please God?

It is not the action but the spirit behind the action.

1 Corinthians 10:30–31 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Using your reasoning that you set forth here, carnal believers can easily say that they give thanks to God for the pornography that they partake of with thankfulness so their viewing pornography is pleasing to God.

Such reasoning is patently false. It is not just the spirit behind the action that matters.

Just because someone claims to be thankful to God for what they are doing does not establish that their action(s) are therefore necessarily pleasing to God.

 

[JonC]

Using your reasoning that you set forth here, carnal believers can easily say that they give thanks to God for the pornography that they partake of with thankfulness so their viewing pornography is pleasing to God.

Such reasoning is patently false. It is not just the spirit behind the action that matters.

Just because someone claims to be thankful to God for what they are doing does not establish that their action(s) are therefore necessarily pleasing to God.

No. The difference is to lust is to commit adultery.

Now, had God commanded certain instruments not be used in worship then you may have a point. But He didn't.

The issue is not what is pleasing to God but what you find pleasing to you. That is too low a criteria to impose on other people.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

No. The difference is to lust is to commit adultery.

Now, had God commanded certain instruments not be used in worship then you may have a point. But He didn't.

The issue is not what is pleasing to God but what you find pleasing to you. That is too low a criteria to impose on other people.

Singing like a harlot in worship is not a question of what pleases me or not. Singing or speaking in worship in a manner that is sensual is unacceptable to God.

Music in worship that is sensual is not a question of what pleases me. God commands that we make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. That command prohibits the use of worship music that is sensual.

God commands that we have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Music that is distinctively of the occult is categorically unacceptable to God regardless of whether someone likes how it sounds or not.

 

[JonC]

Singing like a harlot in worship is not a question of what pleases me or not.

You mean music like this, or how you imaging harlots sing?

 

[AustinC]

You are setting forth a false dichotomy. It is not true that either God must have stated clear regulations specifically about music or all music is acceptable to Him.

God has given many broader statements that apply to all areas of Christian living and worship, including music. God commands believers not to have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11). That command applies to all music that is distinctively of the occult. God does not have to give any specific regulations about such music in order for us to know that music that is distinctively of the occult is unacceptable to Him.

Your legalism is on display.

Indeed, we do not approve of godless lyrics that deny the Creator. To approve would go against God.
We also recognize that all people are His creation and as such, even in their sins, they can create that which is pleasing to God. Therefore, we discern God's hand upon music and we celebrate the brilliance of his created beings to make music.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Your legalism is on display.

Indeed, we do not approve of godless lyrics that deny the Creator. To approve would go against God.
We also recognize that all people are His creation and as such, even in their sins, they can create that which is pleasing to God. Therefore, we discern God's hand upon music and we celebrate the brilliance of his created beings to make music.

Your denial of divine revelation is on display. You in effect claim without any Bible to support your claim that all those who engage in works of darkness still only create music that pleases God. You have to prove that is true; mere assertion does not carry any weight.

 

[AustinC]

Your denial of divine revelation is on display. You in effect claim without any Bible to support your claim that all those who engage in works of darkness still only create music that pleases God. You have to prove that is true; mere assertion does not carry any weight.

How do I deny divine revelation when I recognize God as creator of all humans, who gives all humans the capacity to glorify Him, even if they are not believers. Do you destroy great art because it was created by someone who isn't a Christian? No. You marvel in God's gift to that artist.
I told you that those whose lyrics go against scripture are to be rejected as blasphemy against God.
Do you reject listening to Beethoven because he wasn't a Christian?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

How do I deny divine revelation when I recognize God as creator of all humans, who gives all humans the capacity to glorify Him, even if they are not believers. Do you destroy great art because it was created by someone who isn't a Christian? No. You marvel in God's gift to that artist.
I told you that those whose lyrics go against scripture are to be rejected as blasphemy against God.
Do you reject listening to Beethoven because he wasn't a Christian?

You deny divine revelation by asserting implicitly that all kinds of music, even those kinds that are distinctively of wicked people who serve and worship demons, are acceptable to God and glorify Him. The Bible never teaches that is true; in fact, God commands us to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness" (Eph. 5:11).

You assert implicitly that the unfruitful works of darkness do not include any kinds of music. You have to prove that biblically.

 

[AustinC]

You deny divine revelation by asserting implicitly that all kinds of music, even those kinds that are distinctively of wicked people who serve and worship demons, are acceptable to God and glorify Him. The Bible never teaches that is true; in fact, God commands us to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness" (Eph. 5:11).

You assert implicitly that the unfruitful works of darkness do not include any kinds of music. You have to prove that biblically.

What divine revelation says that all artistic expression by a non-Christian is evil? What verses specifically say that the forms of music you despise are also the music that God despises?
You have none. You're simply being legalistic and creating your own laws.

The normative principle states that if God has not explicitly said it is wrong, you have the freedom in Christ to do it.
Therefore, God does not hate hip hop music. He hates the lyrics that go against his word and he hates the wicked behavior of some people in the music industry, but he doesn't explicitly say that hip hop music itself is wrong.
It is on you to show us the explicit law against hip hop music found in the Bible.