The mystery of the church age

[FollowTheWay]

Jesus will return to judge the earth. The saints will be brought into His Kingdom. The unredeemed will be cast immediately into hell. Earth will no longer suffer the curse of sin.

Jesus chooses. Humans do not choose.

The saints are already in the Kingdom of God. They will enter into Heaven. Notice how the Bible says they will be judged.

 

[37818]

The bride of Christ is Israel and the church, Revelation 21:12, and Revelation 21:14. Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

[robycop3]

You once again ignore the issue raised with Heb:2.
Then you piece together an out-of-context verse, a statement without biblical support, but you have made it up.
How can you discuss the Church the called-out assembly,and ignore that God calls them out?
You are bowing to the free will idol, and by passing biblical truth.

No, calvinism is the idol. EVERYONE is eligible for salvation. God is perfectly-just, and creating a soul for the purpose of sending it to hell would be as UNJUST an act as could be!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

 

[AustinC]

No, calvinism is the idol. EVERYONE is eligible for salvation. God is perfectly-just, and creating a soul for the purpose of sending it to hell would be as UNJUST an act as could be!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

Everyone should hear the message of reconciliation with God. Not everyone will receive that message and believe. Why? Jesus tells us.
"My sheep hear my voice. I call them by name and lead them out."
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Regarding those who do not believe, Jesus says:
“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

It seems your beef is with God, not men. Listen to the Word:
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

As for your verse. Read the whole passage and understand what the Word is saying to you.
"This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

Let the Word be our teacher.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, calvinism is the idol. EVERYONE is eligible for salvation. God is perfectly-just, and creating a soul for the purpose of sending it to hell would be as UNJUST an act as could be!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

This is another blame God for mans sin post.
You want to invent a God who does what you think he should do.
The out of context use of 2 Pet. does not rescue a wrong premise.

 

[robycop3]

This is another blame God for mans sin post.
You want to invent a God who does what you think he should do.
The out of context use of 2 Pet. does not rescue a wrong premise.

So you don't think God is perfectly-just ?

 

[robycop3]

Everyone should hear the message of reconciliation with God. Not everyone will receive that message and believe. Why? Jesus tells us.
"My sheep hear my voice. I call them by name and lead them out."
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Regarding those who do not believe, Jesus says:
“I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

It seems your beef is with God, not men. Listen to the Word:
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

As for your verse. Read the whole passage and understand what the Word is saying to you.
"This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

Let the Word be our teacher.

Pharaoh had the chance to begin worshipping God when he saw the tiny bit of God's power at work. Moses always made it plain to Pharaoh that it was GOD'S power at work, & nor his own. Remember what he said in the movie The Ten Commandments after his army was wiped out in the Red Sea: "HIS God IS God!" Now, we don't know if the real Pharaoh began worshipping God or not, but we DO know that the Amalekites whom the Israelis incountered in the wilderness went on to conquer Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues.These Amalekites, called Hyksos by the Egyptians, ruled Egypt til their power was broken by Saul & the Israelis at Auris.

But given Egypt's history, it's unlikely that the Pharaoh of the Exodus began to worship God, even after God had smitten them badly with those plagues.

 

[canadyjd]

So you don't think God is perfectly-just ?

Of course God is perfectly just, even when allows folks to be born knowing they will go to hell.

But you didn’t say that. You said that unless God acts the way you think He should act, He is not perfectly just.

You demand God act according to your sin marred understanding of what is just or fair or you claim He engages in the most “unjust” acts ever.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Pharaoh had the chance to begin worshipping God when he saw the tiny bit of God's power at work. Moses always made it plain to Pharaoh that it was GOD'S power at work, & nor his own. Remember what he said in the movie The Ten Commandments after his army was wiped out in the Red Sea: "HIS God IS God!" Now, we don't know if the real Pharaoh began worshipping God or not, but we DO know that the Amalekites whom the Israelis incountered in the wilderness went on to conquer Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues.These Amalekites, called Hyksos by the Egyptians, ruled Egypt til their power was broken by Saul & the Israelis at Auris.

But given Egypt's history, it's unlikely that the Pharaoh of the Exodus began to worship God, even after God had smitten them badly with those plagues.

Better not to base theology on a movie, especially a Hollywood version of scripture.

Pharaoh acted according to His nature, even in the midst of the demonstration of God’s power.

All people act the same in rejecting God unless God Holy Spirit intervenes to bring them to salvation.

peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

So you don't think God is perfectly-just ?

God is perfect in all His ways.
What I think does not matter.
What you think does not matter.
Post #108 read it exactly as I did.
You set forth a view of how YOU believe God should act
If God does not do as you imagine, then He is not God.
Isa46:9-11 is still true.

 

[robycop3]

God is perfect in all His ways.
What I think does not matter.
What you think does not matter.
Post #108 read it exactly as I did.
You set forth a view of how YOU believe God should act
If God does not do as you imagine, then He is not God.
Isa46:9-11 is still true.

EVERYONE now alive is eligible for salvation. There's not one "saved if elect" in Scripture.

Of course God is perfectly just, even when allows folks to be born knowing they will go to hell.

But you didn’t say that. You said that unless God acts the way you think He should act, He is not perfectly just.

You demand God act according to your sin marred understanding of what is just or fair or you claim He engages in the most “unjust” acts ever.

Peace to you

Can you name one living person not eligible for salvation? Is it Kim Jong Un? Vlad Putin? Khameini of Iran? Any US politicians or celebs? Any regular people?

 

[AustinC]

Pharaoh had the chance to begin worshipping God when he saw the tiny bit of God's power at work. Moses always made it plain to Pharaoh that it was GOD'S power at work, & nor his own. Remember what he said in the movie The Ten Commandments after his army was wiped out in the Red Sea: "HIS God IS God!" Now, we don't know if the real Pharaoh began worshipping God or not, but we DO know that the Amalekites whom the Israelis incountered in the wilderness went on to conquer Egypt, which was greatly weakened by the plagues.These Amalekites, called Hyksos by the Egyptians, ruled Egypt til their power was broken by Saul & the Israelis at Auris.

But given Egypt's history, it's unlikely that the Pharaoh of the Exodus began to worship God, even after God had smitten them badly with those plagues.

You have just tried to explain Romans 9 away based upon the pretext of your theology. The text says what it says. You can either accept it or try to explain it away. You have done the latter.

 

[AustinC]

EVERYONE now alive is eligible for salvation. There's not one "saved if elect" in Scripture.

Can you name one living person not eligible for salvation? Is it Kim Jong Un? Vlad Putin? Khameini of Iran? Any US politicians or celebs? Any regular people?

What do you mean by "eligible?"
All person's should hear the message of the gospel, reconciliation with God.

Will all who hear the message believe the message? No.

Why won't they believe the message? They are dead in their trespasses and sins.

Can a dead in sins person make themselves alive? No

What must happen so they are made alive? "But God..."

There is this passage that answers your question about the elect:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
~ John 10:25-30

Either Jesus is telling the truth or he is a liar. What do you think?

 

[canadyjd]

.....
Can you name one living person not eligible for salvation? Is it Kim Jong Un? Vlad Putin? Khameini of Iran? Any US politicians or celebs? Any regular people?

Well, I don’t know the names of the 8-9 billion people alive today, so I can only give a general answer as to who is “eligible” for salvation.

Scripture makes it clear the gospel is necessary for salvation. So, if someone alive today is never exposed to the gospel, I would say salvation is not possible for them.

Do you agree the gospel is necessary for salvation and those who are never exposed to the gospel cannot be saved.

peace to you

 

[robycop3]

Well, I don’t know the names of the 8-9 billion people alive today, so I can only give a general answer as to who is “eligible” for salvation.

Scripture makes it clear the gospel is necessary for salvation. So, if someone alive today is never exposed to the gospel, I would say salvation is not possible for them.

Do you agree the gospel is necessary for salvation and those who are never exposed to the gospel cannot be saved.

peace to you

Remember, God has a a way for those who've never heard of Him to be saved. While they may not know who he is, if they believe, from the evidence of creation, that there is an almighty God who made everything, & live a 'decent' life toward their fellow mwen, God will count that as righteousness. (Of course, that doesn't apply to us, who've heard of God our whole lives.)

And for us, faith comes by hearing, & hearing, by the word of God.

And we all know people who were indifferent toward God, or were deliberate sinners, or who were cult members, who decided to abandon their sins, repent of them, & come to Jesus in belief & submission, asking Him to save them.

Again, EVERYONE now alive is eligible for salvation. Your calvinism is false. 2 Peter 3:9 isn't in Scripture to fill space.

 

[robycop3]

What do you mean by "eligible?"
All person's should hear the message of the gospel, reconciliation with God.

Will all who hear the message believe the message? No.

Why won't they believe the message? They are dead in their trespasses and sins.

Can a dead in sins person make themselves alive? No

What must happen so they are made alive? "But God..."

There is this passage that answers your question about the elect:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
~ John 10:25-30

Either Jesus is telling the truth or he is a liar. What do you think?

A person CAN become among His sheep if he starts believing the Gospel he's heard.

 

[Iconoclast]

EVERYONE now alive is eligible for salvation. There's not one "saved if elect" in Scripture.

Can you name one living person not eligible for salvation? Is it Kim Jong Un? Vlad Putin? Khameini of Iran? Any US politicians or celebs? Any regular people?

No one questions the free offer of the gospel.

 

[Iconoclast]

A person CAN become among His sheep if he starts believing the Gospel he's heard.

No....
the sheep have already been given to the Great Shepherd..
when the Spirit quickens them it is discovered that they are lost sheep who Jesus has found.

 

[Iconoclast]

Remember, God has a a way for those who've never heard of Him to be saved. While they may not know who he is, if they believe, from the evidence of creation, that there is an almighty God who made everything, & live a 'decent' life toward their fellow mwen, God will count that as righteousness. (Of course, that doesn't apply to us, who've heard of God our whole lives.)

And for us, faith comes by hearing, & hearing, by the word of God.

And we all know people who were indifferent toward God, or were deliberate sinners, or who were cult members, who decided to abandon their sins, repent of them, & come to Jesus in belief & submission, asking Him to save them.

Again, EVERYONE now alive is eligible for salvation. Your calvinism is false. 2 Peter 3:9 isn't in Scripture to fill space.

I do not believe you understand Biblical salvation as you have posted that some are saved by what they do.
You suggest Calvinism is false because you lack understanding of grace.
you suggest grace plus works.

 

[AustinC]

Remember, God has a a way for those who've never heard of Him to be saved. While they may not know who he is, if they believe, from the evidence of creation, that there is an almighty God who made everything, & live a 'decent' life toward their fellow mwen, God will count that as righteousness. (Of course, that doesn't apply to us, who've heard of God our whole lives.)

And for us, faith comes by hearing, & hearing, by the word of God.

And we all know people who were indifferent toward God, or were deliberate sinners, or who were cult members, who decided to abandon their sins, repent of them, & come to Jesus in belief & submission, asking Him to save them.

Again, EVERYONE now alive is eligible for salvation. Your calvinism is false. 2 Peter 3:9 isn't in Scripture to fill space.

You have zero scripture for your position...and 2 Peter 3:9 does not support your assertion. You are literally making stuff up out of your own imagination.