The Myth of "faith being credited for Righteousness"

[The Biblicist]

LOL, repeating bogus views will not accomplish anything.

Abraham's faith was in God, the mystery of Christ was not yet revealed.

False! He was revealed as the promised "seed" to Adam (Gen. 3:15) that would save them from their fall into sin. He was revealed to Abraham as the same promised "seed" in whom all nations would be "blessed" that that blessedness is described in Romans 4:6-8. He was revealed by all the prophets beginning with Abel for justification (remission of sins) - Acts 10:43. The same gospel was preached unto them as well as unto us (Heb. 4:2).

No one said Abraham was righteous, or was made righteous during his lifetime.
His faith was credited as righteousness. You don't even understand the abc's of the gospel of Christ.

It is God alone who credits faith as righteousness. He determines whether to do it or not.

Again, God does not credit any kind of faith for righteousness except faith that has the gospel of Christ as its substance and thus its hope.

Again, faith in God does not even do demons good. Faith in God's provision of righteousness in Christ as promised by God in the gospel is the ONLY kind of faith God "imputes" - legally reckons - positionally declares to be ours by faith.

I took nothing out of context and did not redefine any words. More false charges, more smoke, more obfuscation.

You don't even know what "context" is even if it starred in you the face.

 

[The Biblicist]

Faith has not sinned!!! It is the person who has sinned. What stands before God is the sinner and if the sinner is not justified there is no salvation.

Romans 4:1 makes it clear it is ABRAHAM that was justified not abstract faith. Romans 4:11 makes it clear that we are justified the very same way. It is not our faith that is justified but it is US that is justified. There is no justification where the sinner is not DECLARED righteous and where sin is not remitted. Abraham was declared righteous and his sins were remitted or Romans 4:6-8 is void of all meaning.

It was "through faith" Abraham himself, his own person, was declared to be righteous before God because his faith was in the promised "seed" as God's promised provision for sin. "His faith is defined by context to be inclusive of Christ and the righteousness of God (Rom. 3:21-22; 24-27). Abraham is merely brought into this discussion to illustrate that kind of faith in Romans 3:24-27 and for no other reason to define that kind of faith. If you miss that (and Van has missed it) you miss the boat.

Van and his followers believe that Abraham remained spiritually dead, thus the spirit of Abraham after death continued in spiritual death. Here is how Paul describes man who is spiritually dead:

Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Their unquickened condition is fully described in verses 2-3. The phrase "wherein time past" refers to thier spiritual dead condition and characteristics. This is the only Biblical alternative for rejecting quickening of sinners prior to the cross. The sin condition of Abraham is no different than your sin condition. The solution for it is no different than it is for yours or OTHERWISE ABRAHAM WOULD NOT BE PRESENTED AS THE PATTERN FOR ALL WHO ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH.

 

[Van]

The falsehoods continue to be asserted. Scripture says Christ was a mystery and the gospel was a mystery.

The claim that the OT Saints who gained approval by faith, somehow believed in the gospel of Christ while it was still a mystery is irrational nonsense. They believed in God and believed in the promises of God.

Did anyone say "faith has sinned?" nope, more irrational nonsense, smoke and smear.

Does Romans 4:1 say Abraham was justified? No. So yet another non-germane verse tossed into a post. LOL

Lets pause from considering the posted babble, and restate how we are justified based on faith.

1) we hear and understand the gospel.
2) We believe and put our full trust in Christ for our salvation
3) God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness.
4) God then transfers us into the kingdom of His Son.
5) We undergo the circumcision of Christ, our sin burden is removed.
6) We arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, and justified by the blood of Christ.​

 

[Van]

Was Abraham "quickened," made alive, regenerated before Christ died? Nope, so yet another myth with absolutely no support in scripture. OTOH scripture tells us Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, and he gained approval by faith. Read Hebrews 11:8-19. Search it carefully. Anybody see where Abraham was quickened? How about made spiritually alive? How about regenerated. This myth is based on an argument from silence, claiming what scripture never says.

 

[The Biblicist]

Was Abraham "quickened," made alive, regenerated before Christ died? Nope, so yet another myth with absolutely no support in scripture.

The same Paul, in the very same book, who said that Abraham was the model, pattern, father "OF ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" also said

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

He is speaking about the unregenerate condition when he says "in the flesh" in verse 8 as verse 8 is a further explanation of the condition described in verse 7. This condition is not based on the cross, or when Jesus came or Pentecost, but on the fall of man into sin. To be "in the flesh" is to be born of Adam in an unregenerate state. If any man is born of Adam in an unregenerate state "he is none of his." The only human beings born of Adam are those who are "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Peter plainly states that Old Testament prophets had the "Spirit of Christ, which was in them" - 1 Pet. 1:11 even though they did not know the "time" of Christ's coming. Common people, who were neither prophets, priests or kings had the Spirit in them like Caleb. The only people living between Genesis and the cross who did not have the indwelling Spirit ("the Spirit of God DWELL in you") were those who are "none of his."

OTOH scripture tells us Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, and he gained approval by faith. Read Hebrews 11:8-19.

Complete hogwash! Jerked out of context. Hebrews 11:8-19 is describing what Abraham DID by faith whereas Romans 4:1-11 is describing what God did for Abraham through faith.

Romans 4:1-3 is describing Genesis 15:1-5 and God's promise to bless Abraham through the singular promised seed which Paul said is Christ (Gal. 3:15-17). That blessing is described by Paul in Romans 4:5-8, where David is used to describe "the blessed man". That blessing through the promised seed was to be declared righteous before God and sins completely removed. Abraham believed God's promise about how to be blessed in Christ the promised seed.

Paul confirms the blessing was the gospel blessing of salvation that Abraham believed as Paul tells the Galatians that Abraham believed in the gospel just as they did - Gal. 1:6-8. Paul is asserting that the words "in thee shall all nations be blessed" is the same gospel he preached to them and they received. It is the "blessed" state of justification - imputed righteousness and remission of sins by faith in Christ.

6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Van cannot understand what he reads so let me help him. Do you know what "even as" means? Hint: It does not mean "differently than." Paul is telling the post-cross Galatians that "even as" Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness, KNOW YE THEREFORE." Van this means YOU SHOULD KNOW that anyone, everyone, all at ANY TIME "which are of faith" are not different in this matter but they are "children of" Abraham. In what sense are they "the children of" Abraham? In the sense of that Abraham is their spiritual father? NO! In the sense that Abraham's justification is the role model, pattern, for all who believe regardless when they live. If they lived before Abraham they were justified just like Abraham. If they lived at the time of Abraham (Job) they were justified just like Abraham. If they lived after Abraham, they were justified just like Abraham.

Now, "EVEN AS ABRAHAM BELIEVED." Van thinks that Abraham justification was just believing in God no matter what God promised. That is false! The faith that God imputed righteousness to Abraham is clearly stated to be FAITH IN THE GOSPEL PROMISE given to Abraham by God:

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Do you see the word "gospel" in verse 8 Van????? How would God "justify the heathen" Van? "through faith" but not faith in God for just anything but faith in "the gospel" as it is in this gospel that "all nations shall be blessed" and "they which be of faith are blessed WITH faithful Abraham." This blessing is justification - imputed righteousness and remission of sins due to faith in the gospel of Christ, the promised seed, as preached by God.

Van lives in a myth, his doctrine is a myth simply because he cannot rightly divide the word of truth and it does not matter how clear God's word spells it out because he has no eyes to see or ears to hear the truth, because he is blinded by false doctrine.

The faith that is "counted" or "imputed" or "reckoned" as righteousness and remission of sins is gospel faith in Christ. This "counted" or "imputed" or "reckoned" righteousness is applied to the PERSON of Abraham, it is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS by imputation, reckoning, counting before God's court. It is Abraham POSITION IN CHRIST by faith. It is not his personal righteousness, but his imputed righteousness given to him by God through faith in Christ as Savior.

Those who deny this elementary truth are declaring in the loudest voice they are ignorant of the the abc's of the gospel of Christ and the Biblical doctrine of justification.

Search it carefully. Anybody see where Abraham was quickened? How about made spiritually alive? How about regenerated.

If ignorance is bliss, then someone is on cloud nine as "quickened" means made alive and so does "re-generated - as they are one and the same. If any man at any time in history is unregenerated or not quickened by the Spirit of God, they are "none of his" plus they are completely Satans as the unquickened/unregenerated state is described by Paul in these words:

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

This was the state of Adam after the fall and every human being born of Adam after the fall. This was Abraham's condition as he came into this world by natural birth "in the flesh." This was Van's condition when he came into the world. This is the continuing condition of all who are unregenerated/unquickened because this has NOTHING to do with the cross, the coming of Christ, the day of Pentecost but with the FALL OF MAN and every man's relationship by birth ("in the flesh") with Adam.

If you want to know a real MYTH let Van produce ONE SCRIPTURE that denies the new birth before the cross? HE CANNOT DO IT! His denial is based upon INFERENCES which are based upon HIS CHERRY PICKING JERKED OUT OF CONTEXT PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURES!

Yet, we have John 3:3-11 before the Cross. We have Ezekiel 44:5-7 before the cross. We have 1 Pet 1;11 asserted before the cross. We have Rom.8;7-9 claiming that "ANY MAN" without indwelling of the Spirit are "none of his" thus they are Satan's.

The REAL MYTH is Van's ability to rightly divide the word of truth as his whole denial is based solely upon unnecessary and forced INFERENCES.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The same Paul, in the very same book, who said that Abraham was the model, pattern, father "OF ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" also said

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

He is speaking about the unregenerate condition when he says "in the flesh" in verse 8 as verse 8 is a further explanation of the condition described in verse 7. This condition is not based on the cross, or when Jesus came or Pentecost, but on the fall of man into sin. To be "in the flesh" is to be born of Adam in an unregenerate state. If any man is born of Adam in an unregenerate state "he is none of his." The only human beings born of Adam are those who are "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Peter plainly states that Old Testament prophets had the "Spirit of Christ, which was in them" - 1 Pet. 1:11 even though they did not know the "time" of Christ's coming. Common people, who were neither prophets, priests or kings had the Spirit in them like Caleb. The only people living between Genesis and the cross who did not have the indwelling Spirit ("the Spirit of God DWELL in you") were those who are "none of his."



Complete hogwash! Jerked out of context. Hebrews 11:8-19 is describing what Abraham DID by faith whereas Romans 4:1-11 is describing what God did for Abraham through faith.

Romans 4:1-3 is describing Genesis 15:1-5 and God's promise to bless Abraham through the singular promised seed which Paul said is Christ (Gal. 3:15-17). That blessing is described by Paul in Romans 4:5-8, where David is used to describe "the blessed man". That blessing through the promised seed was to be declared righteous before God and sins completely removed. Abraham believed God's promise about how to be blessed in Christ the promised seed.

Paul confirms the blessing was the gospel blessing of salvation that Abraham believed as Paul tells the Galatians that Abraham believed in the gospel just as they did - Gal. 1:6-8. Paul is asserting that the words "in thee shall all nations be blessed" is the same gospel he preached to them and they received. It is the "blessed" state of justification - imputed righteousness and remission of sins by faith in Christ.

6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Van cannot understand what he reads so let me help him. Do you know what "even as" means? Hint: It does not mean "differently than." Paul is telling the post-cross Galatians that "even as" Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness, KNOW YE THEREFORE." Van this means YOU SHOULD KNOW that anyone, everyone, all at ANY TIME "which are of faith" are not different in this matter but they are "children of" Abraham. In what sense are they "the children of" Abraham? In the sense of that Abraham is their spiritual father? NO! In the sense that Abraham's justification is the role model, pattern, for all who believe regardless when they live. If they lived before Abraham they were justified just like Abraham. If they lived at the time of Abraham (Job) they were justified just like Abraham. If they lived after Abraham, they were justified just like Abraham.

Now, "EVEN AS ABRAHAM BELIEVED." Van thinks that Abraham justification was just believing in God no matter what God promised. That is false! The faith that God imputed righteousness to Abraham is clearly stated to be FAITH IN THE GOSPEL PROMISE given to Abraham by God:

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Do you see the word "gospel" in verse 8 Van????? How would God "justify the heathen" Van? "through faith" but not faith in God for just anything but faith in "the gospel" as it is in this gospel that "all nations shall be blessed" and "they which be of faith are blessed WITH faithful Abraham." This blessing is justification - imputed righteousness and remission of sins due to faith in the gospel of Christ, the promised seed, as preached by God.

Van lives in a myth, his doctrine is a myth simply because he cannot rightly divide the word of truth and it does not matter how clear God's word spells it out because he has no eyes to see or ears to hear the truth, because he is blinded by false doctrine.

The faith that is "counted" or "imputed" or "reckoned" as righteousness and remission of sins is gospel faith in Christ. This "counted" or "imputed" or "reckoned" righteousness is applied to the PERSON of Abraham, it is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS by imputation, reckoning, counting before God's court. It is Abraham POSITION IN CHRIST by faith. It is not his personal righteousness, but his imputed righteousness given to him by God through faith in Christ as Savior.

Those who deny this elementary truth are declaring in the loudest voice they are ignorant of the the abc's of the gospel of Christ and the Biblical doctrine of justification.

If ignorance is bliss, then someone is on cloud nine as "quickened" means made alive and so does "re-generated - as they are one and the same. If any man at any time in history is unregenerated or not quickened by the Spirit of God, they are "none of his" plus they are completely Satans as the unquickened/unregenerated state is described by Paul in these words:

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

This was the state of Adam after the fall and every human being born of Adam after the fall. This was Abraham's condition as he came into this world by natural birth "in the flesh." This was Van's condition when he came into the world. This is the continuing condition of all who are unregenerated/unquickened because this has NOTHING to do with the cross, the coming of Christ, the day of Pentecost but with the FALL OF MAN and every man's relationship by birth ("in the flesh") with Adam.

If you want to know a real MYTH let Van produce ONE SCRIPTURE that denies the new birth before the cross? HE CANNOT DO IT! His denial is based upon INFERENCES which are based upon HIS CHERRY PICKING JERKED OUT OF CONTEXT PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURES!

Yet, we have John 3:3-11 before the Cross. We have Ezekiel 44:5-7 before the cross. We have 1 Pet 1;11 asserted before the cross. We have Rom.8;7-9 claiming that "ANY MAN" without indwelling of the Spirit are "none of his" thus they are Satan's.

The REAL MYTH is Van's ability to rightly divide the word of truth as his whole denial is based solely upon unnecessary and forced INFERENCES.

 

[Iconoclast]

The same Paul, in the very same book, who said that Abraham was the model, pattern, father "OF ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" also said

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

He is speaking about the unregenerate condition when he says "in the flesh" in verse 8 as verse 8 is a further explanation of the condition described in verse 7. This condition is not based on the cross, or when Jesus came or Pentecost, but on the fall of man into sin. To be "in the flesh" is to be born of Adam in an unregenerate state. If any man is born of Adam in an unregenerate state "he is none of his." The only human beings born of Adam are those who are "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Peter plainly states that Old Testament prophets had the "Spirit of Christ, which was in them" - 1 Pet. 1:11 even though they did not know the "time" of Christ's coming. Common people, who were neither prophets, priests or kings had the Spirit in them like Caleb. The only people living between Genesis and the cross who did not have the indwelling Spirit ("the Spirit of God DWELL in you") were those who are "none of his."



Complete hogwash! Jerked out of context. Hebrews 11:8-19 is describing what Abraham DID by faith whereas Romans 4:1-11 is describing what God did for Abraham through faith.

Romans 4:1-3 is describing Genesis 15:1-5 and God's promise to bless Abraham through the singular promised seed which Paul said is Christ (Gal. 3:15-17). That blessing is described by Paul in Romans 4:5-8, where David is used to describe "the blessed man". That blessing through the promised seed was to be declared righteous before God and sins completely removed. Abraham believed God's promise about how to be blessed in Christ the promised seed.

Paul confirms the blessing was the gospel blessing of salvation that Abraham believed as Paul tells the Galatians that Abraham believed in the gospel just as they did - Gal. 1:6-8. Paul is asserting that the words "in thee shall all nations be blessed" is the same gospel he preached to them and they received. It is the "blessed" state of justification - imputed righteousness and remission of sins by faith in Christ.

6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Van cannot understand what he reads so let me help him. Do you know what "even as" means? Hint: It does not mean "differently than." Paul is telling the post-cross Galatians that "even as" Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness, KNOW YE THEREFORE." Van this means YOU SHOULD KNOW that anyone, everyone, all at ANY TIME "which are of faith" are not different in this matter but they are "children of" Abraham. In what sense are they "the children of" Abraham? In the sense of that Abraham is their spiritual father? NO! In the sense that Abraham's justification is the role model, pattern, for all who believe regardless when they live. If they lived before Abraham they were justified just like Abraham. If they lived at the time of Abraham (Job) they were justified just like Abraham. If they lived after Abraham, they were justified just like Abraham.

Now, "EVEN AS ABRAHAM BELIEVED." Van thinks that Abraham justification was just believing in God no matter what God promised. That is false! The faith that God imputed righteousness to Abraham is clearly stated to be FAITH IN THE GOSPEL PROMISE given to Abraham by God:

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Do you see the word "gospel" in verse 8 Van????? How would God "justify the heathen" Van? "through faith" but not faith in God for just anything but faith in "the gospel" as it is in this gospel that "all nations shall be blessed" and "they which be of faith are blessed WITH faithful Abraham." This blessing is justification - imputed righteousness and remission of sins due to faith in the gospel of Christ, the promised seed, as preached by God.

Van lives in a myth, his doctrine is a myth simply because he cannot rightly divide the word of truth and it does not matter how clear God's word spells it out because he has no eyes to see or ears to hear the truth, because he is blinded by false doctrine.

The faith that is "counted" or "imputed" or "reckoned" as righteousness and remission of sins is gospel faith in Christ. This "counted" or "imputed" or "reckoned" righteousness is applied to the PERSON of Abraham, it is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS by imputation, reckoning, counting before God's court. It is Abraham POSITION IN CHRIST by faith. It is not his personal righteousness, but his imputed righteousness given to him by God through faith in Christ as Savior.

Those who deny this elementary truth are declaring in the loudest voice they are ignorant of the the abc's of the gospel of Christ and the Biblical doctrine of justification.

If ignorance is bliss, then someone is on cloud nine as "quickened" means made alive and so does "re-generated - as they are one and the same. If any man at any time in history is unregenerated or not quickened by the Spirit of God, they are "none of his" plus they are completely Satans as the unquickened/unregenerated state is described by Paul in these words:

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

This was the state of Adam after the fall and every human being born of Adam after the fall. This was Abraham's condition as he came into this world by natural birth "in the flesh." This was Van's condition when he came into the world. This is the continuing condition of all who are unregenerated/unquickened because this has NOTHING to do with the cross, the coming of Christ, the day of Pentecost but with the FALL OF MAN and every man's relationship by birth ("in the flesh") with Adam.

If you want to know a real MYTH let Van produce ONE SCRIPTURE that denies the new birth before the cross? HE CANNOT DO IT! His denial is based upon INFERENCES which are based upon HIS CHERRY PICKING JERKED OUT OF CONTEXT PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURES!

Yet, we have John 3:3-11 before the Cross. We have Ezekiel 44:5-7 before the cross. We have 1 Pet 1;11 asserted before the cross. We have Rom.8;7-9 claiming that "ANY MAN" without indwelling of the Spirit are "none of his" thus they are Satan's.

The REAL MYTH is Van's ability to rightly divide the word of truth as his whole denial is based solely upon unnecessary and forced INFERENCES.

Yes...unfortunately we see this pattern in thread after thread....non stop....
At least it provides a backdrop for the truth to shine through.

 

[Yeshua1]

[

ALL who have even been saved were saved by the work of jesus upon the Cross and his resurrection on their behalf, but also true that there were major differences between Old.New Covenants, as Jesus Himself stated to us that while John the Baptist was greatet under the Old, the least would be greater than him under the New!
We just have the fullness of all spiritual blessings made available to us under the new that were not there under the Old...

And faith is a gift from God towards those of us God saves, so how can I take credit for exercising something did not have aprt from God anyways?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Was Abraham "quickened," made alive, regenerated before Christ died? Nope, so yet another myth with absolutely no support in scripture. OTOH scripture tells us Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, and he gained approval by faith. Read Hebrews 11:8-19. Search it carefully. Anybody see where Abraham was quickened? How about made spiritually alive? How about regenerated. This myth is based on an argument from silence, claiming what scripture never says.

 

[Van]

Take a good look at post #25. Was any verse or passage cited that said Abraham was quickened, made alive, regenerated? Nope. More this is like that and that is like this other thing, therefore scripture says what it does not say. Good golly miss molly.

Did you see more claims Christ was not a mystery. Utter nonsense and unbiblical. Any verse cited that actually says what is asserted? Nope. More smoke and smears.

Did Van say Abraham did not believe in the promises of God? Nope, so more smoke, smears, and disreputable post content.

Pay no attention to anything this nameless doctrine advocate says, unless supported by a quote. And read the verses he cites, they are almost always non-germane.

Does the fact all mankind are conceived in iniquity, and were made sinner, children of wrath by nature, support they needed to be born anew before they could believe God? Nope. Like I said, just continuing the argument from silence. Claiming our fallen condition means total spiritual inability. But Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that assertion is hogwash.

Finally, note the ploy of having me prove no one was born anew before Christ died, rather than the nameless doctrine advocates prove their contention, people were born anew. Did God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars? Prove from the bible He didn't. The person making a claim should support it from scripture.

But lets play tha old game one more time.
The OT saints who gained approval by faith were conducted to "Abraham's bosom" when they physically died. Not to the kingdom of heaven. That is because they had not yet been made perfect. The spirits in heaven have been made perfect.
Those set apart in Christ, those who are sanctified, are those made perfect, Hebrews 10:14

So how are we made perfect. My the washing of regeneration, by being born anew in Christ. By having our sin burden removed by the circumcision of Christ. By being made alive together with Christ.

 

[Van]

And faith is a gift from God towards those of us God saves, so how can I take credit for exercising something did not have apart from God anyways?

Do you see any scriptural support cited for this myth of the nameless doctrine? Nope.

We are saved by grace through faith, therefore our faith precedes our salvation. We are saved through faith, not saved and given faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Take a good look at post #25. Was any verse or passage cited that said Abraham was quickened, made alive, regenerated? Nope. More this is like that and that is like this other thing, therefore scripture says what it does not say. Good golly miss molly.

Did you see more claims Christ was not a mystery. Utter nonsense and unbiblical. Any verse cited that actually says what is asserted? Nope. More smoke and smears.

Did Van say Abraham did not believe in the promises of God? Nope, so more smoke, smears, and disreputable post content.

Pay no attention to anything this nameless doctrine advocate says, unless supported by a quote. And read the verses he cites, they are almost always non-germane.

Does the fact all mankind are conceived in iniquity, and were made sinner, children of wrath by nature, support they needed to be born anew before they could believe God? Nope. Like I said, just continuing the argument from silence. Claiming our fallen condition means total spiritual inability. But Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that assertion is hogwash.

Finally, note the ploy of having me prove no one was born anew before Christ died, rather than the nameless doctrine advocates prove their contention, people were born anew. Did God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars? Prove from the bible He didn't. The person making a claim should support it from scripture.

But lets play tha old game one more time.
The OT saints who gained approval by faith were conducted to "Abraham's bosom" when they physically died. Not to the kingdom of heaven. That is because they had not yet been made perfect. The spirits in heaven have been made perfect.
Those set apart in Christ, those who are sanctified, are those made perfect, Hebrews 10:14

So how are we made perfect. My the washing of regeneration, by being born anew in Christ. By having our sin burden removed by the circumcision of Christ. By being made alive together with Christ.

 

[Van]

Lets pause from considering the the incredulity of others, and restate how we are justified based on faith.

1) We hear and understand the gospel.
2) We believe and put our full trust in Christ for our salvation
3) God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness.
4) God then transfers us into the kingdom of His Son.
5) We undergo the circumcision of Christ, our sin burden is removed.
6) We arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, justified and made perfect by the blood of Christ.​

 

[The Biblicist]

Lets pause from considering the the incredulity of others, and restate how we are justified based on faith.

1) We hear and understand the gospel.
2) We believe and put our full trust in Christ for our salvation
3) God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness.
4) God then transfers us into the kingdom of His Son.
5) We undergo the circumcision of Christ, our sin burden is removed.
6) We arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, justified and made perfect by the blood of Christ.​

Van sure practices what he preaches doesn't he???? Look at all the Scriptures he cites to prove his points!!!!!!!! I think here is where Van's own advice needs to be practiced. Now, what did he say? Oh yeah, he said,

Pay no attention to anything this nameless doctrine advocate says, unless supported by a quote.And read the verses he cites, they are almost always non-germane.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, it is amazing how a person can be so blind to the Biblical evidence!

 

[The Biblicist]

Take a good look at post #25. Was any verse or passage cited that said Abraham was quickened, made alive, regenerated?

Yes, do take a good look, a better look than Van apparently took.

1. I cited Paul who explicitly stated "if ANY MAN have not the spirit he is none of his"! Is Abraham a "man"? Is Abraham included in the words "any man"? Shall we believe van who explains away the obvious meaning or Paul who uses UNIVERSAL langauge inclusive of all mankind?

2. I cited Jesus in John 3:3-11 where he says if "except A MAN be born of God" and this is said BEFORE the cross. Is Abraham "a man"? Shall we believe van who explains away the obvious time and meaning or Jesus who uses universal language inclusive of all mankind?

3. I cited Paul who described the unregenerate condition in Eph. 2;2-3 and Van claims Abraham was unregenerated or not quickened. Shall we believe Van who explains away the obvious condition of all unregenerate men or Paul who uses unqualified language for the unregenerate condition.

4. I cited Peter who explicitly stated that the "Spirit of Christ which was in them" in 1 Pet. 1:11. Shall we believe van who explains away the obvious meaning that is consistent with Paul in Rom. 8:8-9 or Peter?

In order to believe van one must not only reject clear explicit scripture but they must equally reject all common sense.

 

[Van]

LOL, more twaddle. The issue is not whether Abraham had been indwelt, he had not. The issue is that a fallen person can believe in God and obtain approval by faith, as Abraham did. Demonstrating "A" and then claiming "B" is twaddle.

Next we get yet another non-germane passage, demonstrating you must be born anew to enter heaven. Right. That is why no one, including Abraham, entered heaven before Christ died. His own passages prove my position. Good golly miss molly.

Did the nameless doctrine advocate even address the fact that unregenerates, in the same spiritual condition as described in Ephesians 2:2-3 were entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13. Nope. Shuck and jive, smoke and smear.

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL, more twaddle. The issue is not whether Abraham had been indwelt, he had not. The issue is that a fallen person can believe in God and obtain approval by faith, as Abraham did. Demonstrating "A" and then claiming "B" is twaddle.

Next we get yet another non-germane passage, demonstrating you must be born anew to enter heaven. Right. That is why no one, including Abraham, entered heaven before Christ died. His own passages prove my position. Good golly miss molly.

Did the nameless doctrine advocate even address the fact that unregenerates, in the same spiritual condition as described in Ephesians 2:2-3 were entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13. Nope. Shuck and jive, smoke and smear.

Here is ignorance on public display for all to see! He can't answer the texts that were cited so he just asserts his own opinion which is flatly contradicted by the scriptures cited.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you see any scriptural support cited for this myth of the nameless doctrine? Nope.

We are saved by grace through faith, therefore our faith precedes our salvation. We are saved through faith, not saved and given faith.

One must be given by God a new heart before one can receive Jesus thru faith though!

 

[Van]

Just another myth, again without biblical support. Try supporting your assertions from scripture. Lots of verses address accepting or receiving the gospel, yet not one of them says anything about being given a new heart first. Paul, OTOH, taught that men of flesh could understand spiritual milk. 1 Cor. 3:1-3.

You should consider this, why does one side of the divide make assertions without biblical support, and the other side supports every contention directly from scripture?