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Featured The natural man receives not the things of God

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jul 2, 2019.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I have always said you can call yourself whatever you like.You can believe whatever you like.
    You can accuse me of whatever you like.bye bye my friend.
     
    #21 Iconoclast, Jul 3, 2019
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14. ". . . But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they [the things of the Spirit of God] are spiritually discerned. . . ." Please explain why you think this?
    ". . . But we have the mind of Christ. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 2:16.
     
    #22 37818, Jul 3, 2019
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have only accused you of prescribing my belief, which was more a recognation of fact than an accusation.

    You and I have much in common in terms of doctrine (we both affirm the "Doctrines of Grace"). But we are miles apart when it comes to how we hold these doctrines and what we would impose on others.

    I am not here to defend Calvinism (I do not believe it needs defending). I am here to learn about other people's views, to evaluate my own, to discuss differences, and to fellowship as Christians.

    I am a Calvinist BUT Calvinism is not my religion.

    That is why I can consider men like @Revmitchell and @Reynolds "in my camp" even though we hold different views. We are fellow heirs with Christ and with each other. We can fellowship not only despite our differences but through them (we can learn something from one another).

    The issue is when people become more Calvinist or Arminian, or Baptist, or Charismatic .... etc, than they are Christian. This is when people mistreat others and Christians trample the blood shed for their sake.

    I wish I could help remove the scales that seem to color your vision making you see other Christians who disagree with you as an enemy or a target. All I can say is that if you focus on Christ and realize those you ridicule are precious to Him, purchased by His blood, then maybe your perspective will change.
     
    #23 JonC, Jul 3, 2019
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Since I have been here I've affirmed the "Doctrines of Grace" (how the BB defines "Calvinism"). But this does not matter.

    The question is not how "Calvinistic" one is if he denies that God separated from Jesus on the Cross. It is not how "Calvinistic" one is if he rejects the idea God was wrathful towards Christ when Christ experienced what would be wrath to us.

    The question is not how "Calvinistic" one is if they believe the Atonement eternally exceeds the bounds of any one theory. And the question is not how "Calvinistic" one is if they reject @Iconoclast 's Covenant theology.

    The question, in fact, is not how "Calvinistic" but how Christian one is.

    We cannot say we are following Christ if we are walking in darkness. We cannot say we are faithful if we disparage people who are purchased with Christ's own blood.

    Where is your faith centered - on your theology or on Christ? This is the question we should ask of ourselves.
     
    #24 JonC, Jul 3, 2019
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  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Why do we think the natural man is equal to the lost man who may be later saved?

    Why do we suppose the natural man without spiritual discernment has spiritual understanding in order to be saved

    Why do we suppose that man is either saved and lost when this verse speaks on a natural man vs the spiritual mind

    all these are not supported in scripture
     
    #25 loDebar, Jul 3, 2019
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    another wonderful and amazing post, off topic as usual, but quite wonderful
     
    #26 Iconoclast, Jul 3, 2019
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The reason is that the natural man is under the power or dominion the flesh.
    He is controlled..kata...by the flesh.
    The Christian is under the control and dominon of the Spirit.
    It is contrasting two men, the natural fleshy person without the Spirit.
    The Christian with the Spirit.
    Paul teaches the same thing in Romans 8.
     
    #27 Iconoclast, Jul 3, 2019
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  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
    10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

    Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
    11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
    13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

    Mark 4:11“To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

    Christians need the Holy Spirit to know the mysteries of God, to know the deep things of the Spirit. Christians can know these things. 1 Cor 2, if taken in context, is about the mysteries, the deep things of God. The natural (unsaved) man does not understand these things. But he can understand the Gospel. In fact, that passage in Mark 4 states that if the Gospel were to be plainly stated to unbelievers they might understand it, repent, and have their sins forgiven.
     
    #28 InTheLight, Jul 3, 2019
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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    For the record, I am not a Calvinist in my views.
     
    #29 37818, Jul 3, 2019
  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    that says we have to have to be able to grasp spiritual things in order to understand spiritual condition to be saved which the verse shows not to be true. The natural man CANNOT discern spiritual things, like a horse

    Remember how man was made in God's "image" after our "likeness" . God is a spirit so it is not physical image but as a spirit , Adam was a spiritual being.

    Consider there have been some without a spirit a body that cannot discern spiritual things. as a blind man and colors, That is a natural man
     
    #30 loDebar, Jul 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That's OK.

    According to some, there are only about three or four "real" ones in the world anyway :Laugh:Roflmao .
     
    #31 JonC, Jul 3, 2019
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are two posts there (in your quote). And yes, they are wonderful. But I do not take the credit. These things are taught in Scripture.

    And it is wonderful, to those who not hear but act upon God's words.


    "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:35
     
    #32 JonC, Jul 3, 2019
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another thread, posted by a Calvinist, pushing Calvinist doctrine. And of course, the premise is utterly false.

    Does 1 Corinthians 2:14 say the natural man cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit? Nope. But that is the bogus view of Calvinism.

    1 Corinthians 3:1 says men of flesh can understand (spiritual) milk, but not spiritual solid food.

    But yet we are on page two pushing the bogus doctrine.
     
    #33 Van, Jul 3, 2019
  14. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Please explain the correct rendering of the verse then
     
    #34 loDebar, Jul 3, 2019
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Natural is not a reference to lost.
     
    #35 Revmitchell, Jul 3, 2019
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That Greek word can be translated "never." Hebrews 10:1.
     
    #36 37818, Jul 3, 2019
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for that qualification.

    That Greek word is used 5 times in the NT. Twice in reference to the pre-resurrection body. (1 Corinthians 15:44; 1 Corinthians 15:46.) And two other times where it can also be interpreted to refer to the lost, James 3:15 and Jude 1:19.
     
    #37 37818, Jul 3, 2019
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sure it is
     
    #38 Iconoclast, Jul 3, 2019
  19. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    The Ethiopian eunuch, clearly unsaved, was most certainly searching the Word of God trying diligently to understand it. His desire to understand more about the Word of God was met with divine intervention which resulted in his salvation (Acts 8:26-38). That, my friend, is the sovereignty of God.
     
    #39 Pastor_Bob, Jul 3, 2019
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  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Finally, a question I can take a shot at answering. :)
    By how the word is used in Scripture:

    In 1 Corinthians 15, psychikós [Strong's G5591] is used in the sense of "having the nature and characteristics of animal life" or put even more simply, we are alive and breathing.

    1 Corinthians 15:44
    • it is sown a natural [G5591] body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural [G5591] body, there is also a spiritual body.


    1 Corinthians 15:46
    • However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural [G5591]; then the spiritual.

    However, psychikós [Strong's G5591] can also mean "governed the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion" or "a wisdom in harmony with the corrupt desires and affections, and springing from them" as seen in Jude 1 and James 3, respectively. This meaning is also linked to the Hebrew redered as "crafty" in Genesis 3:1 (as translated in LXX).

    James 3:15
    • This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural [G5591], demonic.

    Jude 1:19
    • These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded [G5591], devoid of the Spirit.

    The gramatical construct and usage of psychikós [Strong's G5591] in 1 Corinthians 2 most closely resembles that found in Jude 1:19 making the meaning of "natural" in 1 cor 2:14 best understood as a mind governed by the appetites and passions of the flesh.

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    • But natural [G5591] man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

    It is open to debate and known only to God whether or not the "natural man" will ever be changed ("saved").
     
    #40 atpollard, Jul 3, 2019
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