The nature of God's Kingdom

[DHK]

This is off topic once again.

The only reason it is off topic is because I refuse to accept a verse like Josh.2:11 as evidence for your "kingdom theology." Whether or not it talks of Rahab's salvation may even be irrelevant. It does not speak of the kingdom. Yet you say it does. That simply is taking scripture out of context, and that is my main objection here. In that respect I am not off topic, for you originally posted the scripture. And I believe it is wrong.

Joshua 2:11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
--Now let's assume for argument's sake that the majority here is right, and that the above verse is indicative of her belief in God as her Savior and this is the point of her salvation.
This is a basic non-Cal position.
1. She called upon the Lord and was saved. It was her faith; God didn't give it to her.
2. This is not Lordship Salvation. Almost immediately she lied. This is not the fruit of Lordship Salvation.

Let me put this in a modern day scenario.
A Muslim comes to you. He says that he doesn't want to be a Muslim any longer--not after what ISIS has done in Syria, or Saudi Arabia has done recently, or what Iran is threatening to do, or what the Taliban have done, etc. He has heard of the God of Christianity. His name is Jesus Christ. He has done miracles. He died and they say he rose from the dead. Beyond that he knows almost nothing.
So you take "the sinners prayer," probably that same one written by Billy Graham, and have him pray that prayer. Then you pronounce him a Christian, providing he prayed the prayer sincerely.

That is what happened. She saw all the wickedness of Egypt and other nations. She saw how God judged it. She knew her nation was next. She heard of the God of Israel, but did not know much about this God. She prayed a prayer and now is pronounced "a believer." Not much difference.

We tend to read our own cultural backgrounds back into Biblical history. It skews our thinking and understanding of the passage. America and Canada are secular, not religious nations. We tend not to talk about religion in public, whereas in eastern nations, and in most nations of the first century, the entire nation was or is religious. One could hardly carry on a conversation without religion being a part of it. Everybody is religious. Everyone can perform "religious acts" such as prayer.
Saved or unsaved, most people in most religions were able to act like this:

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
--Even a prostitute could do this.
It was a religious nation. A beautiful prayer is not evidence of a believer; it is only evidence of one who has been very religious in the past.

Your claim: She believed. She became a theologian the day she believed and suddenly knew more theology than most of us posting on the board. Incredible!!

Your statement:
The heathen prostitute was saved by God.....she knew more about God and His reign than you do.

God may have saved her. She said nothing about God reigning. She did not become a theologian all of a sudden. She made a statement of belief. She called upon the name of the Lord. In OT terms "she prayed the sinner's prayer," and was saved. I am happy for you that you are no longer a Calvinist.
There is no Total Inability here.
There is free will here.
There is no LS. here.
There is sin almost immediately after salvation.
This is a carnal Christian (at least to begin with). Most new believers are. They haven't become disciples yet. They must learn, and so did Rahab. It is a process.

She simply "called upon the name of the Lord" and was saved. Isn't salvation simple?

But there is no kingdom here.
They had just wandered in the desert for 40 years. They were just now entering into the Promised Land. 40 years ago Moses had formed these 12 tribes under one God into a theocracy. They were a nation whose God was their Lord. They were His servants, and they had just entered the Promised Land. There is no kingdom here, and Rahab had not expressed anything about a kingdom.

 

[blessedwife318]

The only reason it is off topic is because I refuse to accept a verse like Josh.2:11 as evidence for your "kingdom theology." Whether or not it talks of Rahab's salvation may even be irrelevant. It does not speak of the kingdom. Yet you say it does. That simply is taking scripture out of context, and that is my main objection here. In that respect I am not off topic, for you originally posted the scripture. And I believe it is wrong.

Joshua 2:11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
--Now let's assume for argument's sake that the majority here is right, and that the above verse is indicative of her belief in God as her Savior and this is the point of her salvation.
This is a basic non-Cal position.
1. She called upon the Lord and was saved. It was her faith; God didn't give it to her.
2. This is not Lordship Salvation. Almost immediately she lied. This is not the fruit of Lordship Salvation.

Let me put this in a modern day scenario.
A Muslim comes to you. He says that he doesn't want to be a Muslim any longer--not after what ISIS has done in Syria, or Saudi Arabia has done recently, or what Iran is threatening to do, or what the Taliban have done, etc. He has heard of the God of Christianity. His name is Jesus Christ. He has done miracles. He died and they say he rose from the dead. Beyond that he knows almost nothing.
So you take "the sinners prayer," probably that same one written by Billy Graham, and have him pray that prayer. Then you pronounce him a Christian, providing he prayed the prayer sincerely.

That is what happened. She saw all the wickedness of Egypt and other nations. She saw how God judged it. She knew her nation was next. She heard of the God of Israel, but did not know much about this God. She prayed a prayer and now is pronounced "a believer." Not much difference.

We tend to read our own cultural backgrounds back into Biblical history. It skews our thinking and understanding of the passage. America and Canada are secular, not religious nations. We tend not to talk about religion in public, whereas in eastern nations, and in most nations of the first century, the entire nation was or is religious. One could hardly carry on a conversation without religion being a part of it. Everybody is religious. Everyone can perform "religious acts" such as prayer.
Saved or unsaved, most people in most religions were able to act like this:

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
--Even a prostitute could do this.
It was a religious nation. A beautiful prayer is not evidence of a believer; it is only evidence of one who has been very religious in the past.

Your claim: She believed. She became a theologian the day she believed and suddenly knew more theology than most of us posting on the board. Incredible!!

Your statement:
The heathen prostitute was saved by God.....she knew more about God and His reign than you do.

God may have saved her. She said nothing about God reigning. She did not become a theologian all of a sudden. She made a statement of belief. She called upon the name of the Lord. In OT terms "she prayed the sinner's prayer," and was saved. I am happy for you that you are no longer a Calvinist.
There is no Total Inability here.
There is free will here.
There is no LS. here.
There is sin almost immediately after salvation.
This is a carnal Christian (at least to begin with). Most new believers are. They haven't become disciples yet. They must learn, and so did Rahab. It is a process.

She simply "called upon the name of the Lord" and was saved. Isn't salvation simple?

But there is no kingdom here.
They had just wandered in the desert for 40 years. They were just now entering into the Promised Land. 40 years ago Moses had formed these 12 tribes under one God into a theocracy. They were a nation whose God was their Lord. They were His servants, and they had just entered the Promised Land. There is no kingdom here, and Rahab had not expressed anything about a kingdom.

Stop trying to make this into a cal v Armin debate. This is not the forum nor it nor what the OP set up. If you want to debate if Rehab was saved or not, and the implications that may or may not have on Biblical theology start a thread if your own in the appropriate forum.

 

[Iconoclast]

Stop trying to make this into a cal v Armin debate. This is not the forum nor it nor what the OP set up. If you want to debate if Rehab was saved or not, and the implications that may or may not have on Biblical theology start a thread if your own in the appropriate forum.

Well said....

Now- postmill men ask this question?

What law are Christians under in the Kingdom?

pg102-
We can gauge our love for our neighbor by how well we keep the law [rom13:8-10]
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Our love for Jesus is expressed in terms of law keeping {jn 14:15]
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

Keeping God's law is God's will.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Iconoclast]

How do the Amillenial men differ ?
Here is a short excerpt from Michael Horton;
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/tale-two-kingdoms/

Ultimately, Augustine says, these two loves and two cities are themselves grounded in God’s eternal predestination. Although the city of man is destined to perish, God is both creating a new city (the church) from its ruins and preserving the old city by His common grace until ultimate peace and justice arrive with Christ’s return. In this era of common grace, God “sends rain on the just and on the unjust” and calls us to imitate His clemency (Matt. 5:43–48). So Christians have two callings: the high calling in Christ to belong to His body and the calling to the world as citizens, parents, children, friends, coworkers, and neighbors. Because God is still faithful to His creation, there is the possibility of an earthly city with its relative peace and justice; because God is faithful to His electing purposes, there is a church in all times and places that brings true peace and justice. He does this first of all by uniting sinners to Christ, and then one day by eradicating all strife from the earth at Christ’s return.

Consequently, each city has its own polity, serving distinct ends through distinct means. Although some of its citizens are converted to citizenship in the city of God, the earthly city is always Babylon. Like Daniel, believers pray for the city, work in the city, contribute to the city’s general welfare, and even fight in its armies. However, they never forget that they are exiles and pilgrims. Babylon is never the promised land.

The kingdom of God advances through the proclamation of the Gospel, not through the properly coercive powers of the state, although the church may take advantage of the relative peace that is possible in the earthly city (City of God, 19.26–27). These two cities we find “interwoven, as it were, in this present transitory world, and mingled with one another” (11.2). The good things that we do with non-Christian citizens to preserve and enlarge society really are good, but they are not ultimate goods. The earthly city will never be transformed into the city of God this side of Christ’s return in glory.

A Christian would then approach politics not with the question as to how the world can best be saved, but how it can best be served in this time between the times.

Which of the two models do you follow?
How much is "interwoven"....how much is to stay divided?

But we need not choose between these two kingdoms. Citizens of both, we carry out our vocations in the church and the world in distinct ways through distinct means. We need not “Christianize” culture in order to appreciate it and participate in it with the gifts that God has given us as well as our non-Christian neighbors

Does this view promote..."world flight?"

Like Augustine, Luther emphasized the distinction between “things heavenly” and “things earthly,” righteousness before God and righteousness before fellow humans. On one hand, the Reformers were rejecting Rome’s confusion of Christ’s kingdom, which is extended by the proclamation of the Word, and earthly kingdoms. On the other hand, they were also opposing the Anabaptist movement, which regarded the earthly city as simply evil and unworthy of Christian involvement.

Many today seem to hold to this model;

We also recognize an opposite view, more characteristic of the Anabaptist perspective, as evangelist D. L. Moody asserted: “I look upon this world as a wrecked vessel. God has given me a lifeboat and said to me, ‘Moody, save all you can.’” In this view, improving the lot of our neighbors in the world is like polishing the brass on a sinking ship. Christians are often encouraged to focus almost exclusively on personal salvation (their own as well as that of others), unsure of the value of their secular vocations

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is another contrast on how the Kingdom is viewed from He shall have Dominion;

• The kingdom begins in the first century as Christ ministers God’s word among men (13:24, 37). It does not await the distant future thousands of years after Christ’s ministry on earth, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom comes by spreading the word (13:3, 19, 23). It does not appear in the context of a Battle of Armageddon. Nor does it involve any armed conflict whatsoever, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom works within, from the heart (13:19) involving conversion (13:23).
• The kingdom calls for a life of heart-felt commitment (13:44–46). It does not involve political choices or imposed subservience, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom struggles against various hindrances and false starts (13:4–7, 19–22). It does not powerfully impose itself by overwhelming the world in a great battle, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom is a valuable reality that not all men realize, being hidden (13:44–46). It does not picture a kingdom that comes full scale and publically upon men, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom operates in the world even as Satan resists it (13:19, 25, 38–39). It is not protected by a literal binding of Satan so that he is absolutely restrained from any earthly activity, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom results in a wide range of responses, including some rejecting it and others only temporarily accepting it (13:4–7, 19–22). It operates in fits and starts rather appearing catastrophically and universally, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom even includes unbelievers within it (13:24–26, 47–48). It does not come through a battle that destroys all opposition and allows only the saved to enter it, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom grows from an insignificant beginning, gradually producing results over time (13:8, 23, 31–33). It does not dramatically and catastrophically appear on the scene of history all at once, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom gradually grows from the first century, resulting in remarkable, dominant growth, which ultimately penetrates the whole world (13:31–33). This universal, pre-second advent dominion contradicts premillennialism (and amillennialism).
• The kingdom grows as a present reality until the resurrection and judgment at the end of the age, where God finally separates the saved and the lost (13:30, 49–50). The kingdom does not involve a two-fold resurrection separated by 1000 years of a new and different age, as per premillenialism

• The kingdom works within, from the heart (13:19) involving conversion (13:23). It is not essentially a political, bureaucratic realism.reality that is imposed upon a recalcitrant world from without, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom calls for a life of heart-felt commitment (13:44–46). It does not involve political choices or imposed subservience, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom struggles against various hindrances and false starts (13:4–7, 19–22). It does not powerfully impose itself by overwhelming the world in a great battle, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom is a valuable reality that not all men realize, being hidden (13:44–46). It does not picture a kingdom that comes full scale and publically upon men, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom operates in the world even as Satan resists it (13:19, 25, 38–39). It is not protected by a literal binding of Satan so that he is absolutely restrained from any earthly activity, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom results in a wide range of responses, including some rejecting it and others only temporarily accepting it (13:4–7, 19–22). It operates in fits and starts rather appearing catastrophically and universally, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom even includes unbelievers within it (13:24–26, 47–48). It does not come through a battle that destroys all opposition and allows only the saved to enter it, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom grows from an insignificant beginning, gradually producing results over time (13:8, 23, 31–33). It does not dramatically and catastrophically appear on the scene of history all at once, as per premillennialism.
• The kingdom gradually grows from the first century, resulting in remarkable, dominant growth, which ultimately penetrates the whole world (13:31–33). This universal, pre-second advent dominion contradicts premillennialism (and amillennialism).
• The kingdom grows as a present reality until the resurrection and judgment at the end of the age, where God finally separates the saved and the lost (13:30, 49–50). The kingdom does not involve a two-fold resurrection separated by 1000 years of a new and different age,

 

[Iconoclast]

on page 118-119 it is pointed out ;

in lev 18;24-28 The transgression of the very law which God was revealing to Israel was THE SAME LAW which brought Divine punishment upon the gentiles who occupied the land before them.
Israel and the gentiles were under the same moral law, and they both would suffer the same penalty for the defilement which comes with violating it-eviction from the land.

 

[agedman]

Psalm 98.

1 O sing to the LORD a new song,
For He has done wonderful things,
His right hand and His holy arm have gained the victory for Him.
2 The LORD has made known His salvation;
He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.
3 He has remembered His loving kindness and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
4 Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth;
Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.
5 Sing praises to the LORD with the lyre,
With the lyre and the sound of melody.
6 With trumpets and the sound of the horn
Shout joyfully before the King, the LORD.
7 Let the sea roar and all it contains,
The world and those who dwell in it.
8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy
9 Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth;
He will judge the world with righteousness
And the peoples with equity.​

Would not a view that discards the national/political Israel ("house of Israel") have a support problem with thinking of the Psalmist? Is not the Psalm pointing to (imo) the millennial reign and the response of the people of that time?

In this Psalm, there is clearly a kingdom on the earth in which the world and people of this world are rejoicing in praise before the Lord.

Such statements, as are in this Psalm, does not correspond with the past nor current history of humankind. Neither does this Psalm correspond with what John presents as the new heaven and earth.

Therefore, the only application, that one should perhaps conclude, is that the conditions this Psalm present are to be met in the future during the Millennial reign.

A literal kingdom rule of Christ upon the earth is in no way diminishing the building of the kingdom from the time of Eden. Just as God purposed to place the family in Egypt to grow into a nation and then take the nation into a literal "promised land," the growth of the "family of believers" is taking place now, that the kingdom promised be realized both as a kingdom of believers, and a kingdom of rule over all nations in which the believer's rule with the Lord.

I do not hold that "all nations" is what one would view the family of believers. The family has a single identity, and that is "believer," and we are a singular group. The believers are to go into all the nations, but that does not mean that all nations at this time or at any time in the past have, as presented in this Psalm, worshiped the Lord - certainly not the farthest eastern groups.

"All nations" in the Psalm must be the national / political groups who will shout joyfully and praise the Lord. Again, there is no account of John in the Revelation, in which this occurs outside of the Millennium.

So, I do support the earthly physical restoration of the literal national / political Israel is found in Scriptures, and the literal return of Christ to rule all nations during the millennium.

But then folks on the BB already knew my views on the matter, so it is both old news and dumb of me to post.

 

[blessedwife318]

Psalm 98.

1 O sing to the LORD a new song,
For He has done wonderful things,
His right hand and His holy arm have gained the victory for Him.
2 The LORD has made known His salvation;
He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.
3 He has remembered His loving kindness and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
4 Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth;
Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.
5 Sing praises to the LORD with the lyre,
With the lyre and the sound of melody.
6 With trumpets and the sound of the horn
Shout joyfully before the King, the LORD.
7 Let the sea roar and all it contains,
The world and those who dwell in it.
8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy
9 Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth;
He will judge the world with righteousness
And the peoples with equity.​

Would not a view that discards the national/political Israel ("house of Israel") have a support problem with thinking of the Psalmist? Is not the Psalm pointing to (imo) the millennial reign and the response of the people of that time?

In this Psalm, there is clearly a kingdom on the earth in which the world and people of this world are rejoicing in praise before the Lord.

Such statements, as are in this Psalm, does not correspond with the past nor current history of humankind. Neither does this Psalm correspond with what John presents as the new heaven and earth.

Therefore, the only application, that one should perhaps conclude, is that the conditions this Psalm present are to be met in the future during the Millennial reign.

A literal kingdom rule of Christ upon the earth is in no way diminishing the building of the kingdom from the time of Eden. Just as God purposed to place the family in Egypt to grow into a nation and then take the nation into a literal "promised land," the growth of the "family of believers" is taking place now, that the kingdom promised be realized both as a kingdom of believers, and a kingdom of rule over all nations in which the believer's rule with the Lord.

I do not hold that "all nations" is what one would view the family of believers. The family has a single identity, and that is "believer," and we are a singular group. The believers are to go into all the nations, but that does not mean that all nations at this time or at any time in the past have, as presented in this Psalm, worshiped the Lord - certainly not the farthest eastern groups.

"All nations" in the Psalm must be the national / political groups who will shout joyfully and praise the Lord. Again, there is no account of John in the Revelation, in which this occurs outside of the Millennium.

So, I do support the earthly physical restoration of the literal national / political Israel is found in Scriptures, and the literal return of Christ to rule all nations during the millennium.

But then folks on the BB already knew my views on the matter, so it is both old news and dumb of me to post.

Why do you say that this cannot be the new heaven and new earth? John mentions kings and nations walking the earth in Rev. 21:24

 

[DHK]

The Psalm is one of a group of Psalms called "The Royal Psalms" and are attributed to David. David was a king, and he had a kingdom. He wasn't speaking of a future kingdom but his own kingdom. He was a monarch, and the government here is a monarchy.

David, as a man after God's own heart, exhorts all the earth to sing and praise the Lord who reigns. It is David that reigns, but the Lord who reigns over David. He was a Godly man.

Psa 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
--The Lord had made known his salvation to David and therefore to Israel. They as a nation were a light to the heathen around them. There is no worldly kingdom here. There is no millennial kingdom here. It would take two generations. After David would be Solomon. Then Reheboam would come and reign carnally, and the kingdom would be split. Only two tribes would follow Reheboam; it would be a divided kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

psalm98
agedman,

Psalm 98.

​

Would not a view that discards the national/political Israel ("house of Israel") have a support problem with thinking of the Psalmist? Is not the Psalm pointing to (imo) the millennial reign and the response of the people of that time?

Yes....when it was written it pointed to the reign of God.
Jesus is King now...He reigns from heaven on the throne over all the earth right now as the Kingdom grows in the midst of it's enemies.

In this Psalm, there is clearly a kingdom on the earth in which the world and people of this world are rejoicing in praise before the Lord.

That praise is offered by members of the kingdom worldwide now, not as full or complete as it will be, but it is growing.

Such statements, as are in this Psalm, does not correspond with the past nor current history of humankind

.
Sure it does.....Starting with Jesus and the Apostles in Jerusalem it has been spreading for 2000 yrs and still spreading.

Neither does this Psalm correspond with what John presents as the new heaven and earth.

Some believe it does...I am not certain as yet.

Therefore, the only application, that one should perhaps conclude, is that the conditions this Psalm present are to be met in the future during the Millennial reign

.

A literal kingdom rule of Christ upon the earth is in no way diminishing the building of the kingdom from the time of Eden. Just as God purposed to place the family in Egypt to grow into a nation and then take the nation into a literal "promised land," the growth of the "family of believers" is taking place now, that the kingdom promised be realized both as a kingdom of believers, and a kingdom of rule over all nations in which the believer's rule with the Lord.

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"All nations" in the Psalm must be the national / political groups who will shout joyfully and praise the Lord. Again, there is no account of John in the Revelation, in which this occurs outside of the Millennium.

So, I do support the earthly physical restoration of the literal national / political Israel is found in Scriptures, and the literal return of Christ to rule all nations during the millennium.

6x the term 1000yrs is used in rev 20......but it does not say Jesus is on the earth during that reign.



CHS.
Verse 3. He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel. To them Jesus came in the flesh, and to them was the gospel first preached; and though they counted themselves unworthy of eternal life, yet the covenant was not broken, for the true Israel were called into fellowship and still remain so.
The mercy which endureth for ever, and the fidelity which cannot forget a promise, secure to the chosen seed the salvation long ago guaranteed by the covenant of grace. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Not to Abraham's seed alone after the flesh, but to the elect among all nations, has grace been given; therefore, let the whole church of God sing unto him a new song. It was no small blessing, or little miracle, that throughout all lands the gospel should be published in so short a time, with such singular success and such abiding results. Pentecost deserves a new song as well as the Passion and the Resurrection; let out hearts exult as we remember it. Our God, our own for ever blessed God, has been honoured by those who once bowed down before dumb idols; his salvation has not only been heard of but seen among all people, it has been experienced as well as explained; his Son is the actual Redeemer of a multitude out of all nations. In these three verses we are taught how to praise the Lord.

 

[Iconoclast]

from earlier;
• The kingdom begins in the first century as Christ ministers God’s word among men (13:24, 37). It does not await the distant future thousands of years after Christ’s ministry on earth, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom comes by spreading the word (13:3, 19, 23). It does not appear in the context of a Battle of Armageddon. Nor does it involve any armed conflict whatsoever, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom works within, from the heart (13:19) involving conversion (13:23).

• The kingdom calls for a life of heart-felt commitment (13:44–46). It does not involve political choices or imposed subservience, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom struggles against various hindrances and false starts (13:4–7, 19–22). It does not powerfully impose itself by overwhelming the world in a great battle, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom is a valuable reality that not all men realize, being hidden (13:44–46). It does not picture a kingdom that comes full scale and publically upon men, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom operates in the world even as Satan resists it (13:19, 25, 38–39). It is not protected by a literal binding of Satan so that he is absolutely restrained from any earthly activity, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom results in a wide range of responses, including some rejecting it and others only temporarily accepting it (13:4–7, 19–22). It operates in fits and starts rather appearing catastrophically and universally, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom even includes unbelievers within it (13:24–26, 47–48). It does not come through a battle that destroys all opposition and allows only the saved to enter it, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom grows from an insignificant beginning, gradually producing results over time (13:8, 23, 31–33). It does not dramatically and catastrophically appear on the scene of history all at once, as per premillennialism.

• The kingdom gradually grows from the first century, resulting in remarkable, dominant growth, which ultimately penetrates the whole world (13:31–33). This universal, pre-second advent dominion contradicts premillennialism (and amillennialism).

• The kingdom grows as a present reality until the resurrection and judgment at the end of the age, where God finally separates the saved and the lost (13:30, 49–50). The kingdom does not involve a two-fold resurrection separated by 1000 years of a new and different age,

 

[SovereignGrace]

I hope this does not take the OP off the rails...

Jesus stated in John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” He also stated in John 14:1-3 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

It appears that He has left us here to toil in His footstool until He returns.

 

[JonC]

C1, the Kingdom is present and not yet present (Lk 17:20-21). Often it is said to be inaugurated but not here in the fullest. In a way I agree with you, but in another it is not our labors but Christ in us (Gal 2:20). So we labor looking for his return, but we are not left to labor alone. Anyway....good post. Thumbsup

 

[agedman]

I hope this does not take the OP off the rails...

Jesus stated in John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” He also stated in John 14:1-3 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

It appears that He has left us here to toil in His footstool until He returns.

I agree.

But I also see that there are those that do not consider that the literal King will rule a literal Kingdom in the Millennium.

So, that begs the question, upon what definition of "kingdom" is the Lord using in John 18:36.

The previous verse (35) says:

Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?”​

The response to the question is Jesus statement comparing "Your own nation" and the rulers of that nation to His own "kingdom."

Christ did not deny that He was a member of the nation, only that His servants don't fight over the realm in which Pilate wants to assign Him. And what is also important is that Christ does not say that His servants don't fight (struggle), nor that His kingdom will be brought to the world. These cannot be assumed by reading the statements, yet I do think that some do, do.

Paul makes the similar statement, "We wrestle not against flesh and blood..." And Paul states that the struggle is "against the world forces of this darkness," as well as that "wickedness in the heavenly."

So, the "kingdom" struggles. Such struggle does not occur in the place prepared by Christ for believers - the new heaven and earth. By then the battles are over and the kingdom established.

The kingdom will extend control aver all creation, BEFORE that new heaven and earth appear and the passing of this heaven and earth. That the wrestling and struggling will cease both on THIS earth and in THIS heavenly place.

The prophets speak of a literal King, sitting at the literal seat of government in this literal place called Israel. The promise of the suffering messiah was specifically and accurately fulfilled and so will the majestic ruling messiah. The ruling king prophecies are just as valid and to be taken just as literal as the one takes the birth and suffering messianic prophecies.

Therefore, the "kingdom" will come, and the battles will cease. There is no battle ending the millennial reign, but the fiery destruction of all that the current kingdoms struggle and fight over. When there is nothing to struggle and fight over, such contentions cease to have any importance. The kingdom of the wicked have their separate place of eternal abode that was specifically prepared, and the believing kingdom has the new heaven and earth as the abode specifically prepared by Christ.

I am too old and dumb to believe any differently.

 

[SovereignGrace]

C1, the Kingdom is present and not yet present (Lk 17:20-21). Often it is said to be inaugurated but not here in the fullest. In a way I agree with you, but in another it is not our labors but Christ in us (Gal 2:20). So we labor looking for his return, but we are not left to labor alone. Anyway....good post. Thumbsup

I had thought about stating it like that but decided not to. I did not know how others would feel about that line of thought.