The nature of Quickening

[The Biblicist]

I believe exactly what Paul said, "God bound all men over to disobedience..." Why don't you?

What text are you referring and what translation are you using?

And if God didn't "design the consequences" of sin, who did? Satan? Mother Nature? Where did God go while that was being decided? On vacation?

This is like saying God must have designed unrighteousness! Have you ever considered that unrighteousness does not have to be designed but rather is the absense of righteousness or all that is opposite to or anti-righteousness??? Sin does not have to be designed but is the absence of or opposite to obedience?

God is holy and righteous but God did not design holiness and righteousness and neither does he design unholiness and unrighteousness (sin) as they are merely the natural opposites to what God is. God is life but God did not have to design life and neither does he design death as it is merely the absence of life and its natural opposite.

Certainly hell was designed by God as a place of punishment for fallen angels. However, the consequences of sin in regard to death and all it entails are natural and necessary consequences of opposing life.

This is like asking who designed darkness when darkness is merely the absence of light.

 

[Skandelon]

What text are you referring and what translation are you using?

Rom. 11:32 ...I think this is the NIV...but I'm open to other translations.

This is like saying God must have designed unrighteousness!

CONSEQUENCES. PUNISHMENT.

A child might chose the act of disobedience, but the parent is the one who chooses and enforces the consequences.

Have you ever considered that unrighteousness does not have to be designed but rather is the absense of righteousness or all that is opposite to or anti-righteousness???

So wrath doesn't exist? Hell is just absence of something? Total inability is not a real condition that men actually suffer with from birth? Is that what you are arguing because SOMEONE or SOMETHING had to decide that would be the result of disobedience and then they had to enact it. Someone has to send people to hell, it doesn't just magically happen.

the consequences of sin in regard to death and all it entails are natural and necessary consequences of opposing life.

Define natural and necessary. Then tell us who or what decided that they were natural and necessary consequences.

This is like asking who designed darkness when darkness is merely the absence of light.

No, its like asking who designed the wrathful consequences of those who reject the light and walk in darkness.

 

[Skandelon]

IN order not to sin, he must consciously resist sin by confessing he has no ability to overcome sin and yeild to the Spirit.

So, the last time you sinned, why didn't you consciously resist sin in this manner?

Were you responsible? Meaning were you able to respond either way? Or were you bound to sin because God, for whatever reason, chose not to grant the necessary measure of grace needed for you to resist at that point in time?

 

[The Biblicist]

You started by indicating that you could have resisted but chose not to, but then you ended up saying that you didn't resist due to the fact that God didn't give you the measure of grace you needed to resist.

Nice try! My responses have been entirely consistent from the beginning. I went to Romans 7:18-20 to show that the child of God has NO ABILITY in himself or in the regenerate nature to overcome "the law of sin" in his flesh. His will is completely impotent TO DO GOOD (Rom. 7:18-20):

"to will is present with me but HOW TO PERFORM I FIND NOT"

In order to overcome this inherent impotence the child of God must confess his total impotence - "O wretched man that I am, WHO SHALL DELIVER ME" and then cast himself wholly upon the power of the indwelling Spirit of God to "mortify the deeds of the flesh" (Rom. 8:13).

However, even those who are filled with the Spirit are not without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Hence, at no time in this unglorified state do we cease to be sinners as even in a spirit filled condition we continue to "fall short OF THE GLORY OF GOD" or sinless perfection. Hence, the best we can accomplish is to avoid willful or determinate acts of sin by being filled with the Spirit but we never avoid coming short of perfection. So are we "able" to live above sin? No! Unless you want to contradict the Apostle John (1 Jn. 1:8-10) as he was speaking in the present tense while writing under inspiration by the Spirit???

Is God able to enable us to live above sin? As you admitted, yes he is able but does not choose to do so until glorification at the resurrection. Are we ABLE to live above sin? NO! Whose fault is that? God or our fault? It is our fault? Does God provide the grace to live above sin? NO! Who gets the credit when we please God? "For it is God who worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" - philip. 2:13

Now, think about this last paragraph above before responding with more nonsense that we are able or that God has given us ability to live above sin. Yes, it is a paradox.

 

[Skandelon]

Nice try! My responses have been entirely consistent from the beginning. I went to Romans 7:18-20 to show that the child of God has NO ABILITY in himself or in the regenerate nature to overcome "the law of sin" in his flesh. His will is completely impotent TO DO GOOD (Rom. 7:18-20):

"to will is present with me but HOW TO PERFORM I FIND NOT"

In order to overcome this inherent impotence the child of God must confess his total impotence - "O wretched man that I am, WHO SHALL DELIVER ME" and then cast himself wholly upon the power of the indwelling Spirit of God to "mortify the deeds of the flesh" (Rom. 8:13).

However, even those who are filled with the Spirit are not without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Hence, at no time in this unglorified state do we cease to be sinners as even in a spirit filled condition we continue to "fall short OF THE GLORY OF GOD" or sinless perfection. Hence, the best we can accomplish is to avoid willful or determinate acts of sin by being filled with the Spirit but we never avoid coming short of perfection. So are we "able" to live above sin? No! Unless you want to contradict the Apostle John (1 Jn. 1:8-10) as he was speaking in the present tense while writing under inspiration by the Spirit???

Is God able to enable us to live above sin? As you admitted, yes he is able but does not choose to do so until glorification at the resurrection. Are we ABLE to live above sin? NO! Whose fault is that? God or our fault? It is our fault? Does God provide the grace to live above sin? NO! Who gets the credit when we please God? "For it is God who worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" - philip. 2:13

Now, think about this last paragraph above before responding with more nonsense that we are able or that God has given us ability to live above sin. Yes, it is a paradox.

You shift from talking about one particular choice to sin to a generalized 'living above sin,' and it is obvious why you make that shift. When specifically talking about the last time you sinned you cannot say why you didn't "confess your total impotence" or "consciously resist sin by confessing you have no ability to overcome sin." To do so would reveal the INCONSISTENCY of your system.

 

[The Biblicist]

Rom. 11:32 ...I think this is the NIV...but I'm open to other translations.

My translation simply says he has concluded them all in unbelief. I think you and I have already gone over the context. Remember the pronouns?? In context the "all" has reference to the elect Israel in verse 28 who are now enemies of the gospel but beloved of the Father according to election.

CONSEQUENCES. PUNISHMENT.

God certainly designed hell as a PLACE for Satan and his angels and consequently all who follow him with PENAL CONSEQUENCES.

However, God did not design sin or death as they do not need to be designed any more than God designed holiness or righteousness as they are the natural opposites. The absence of righteousness is not a vacuum but unrighteousness and the absence of life is not a vacuum but death.

A child might chose the act of disobedience, but the parent is the one who chooses and enforces the consequences.

However, you are demanding that God must have designed "disobedience" for it to exist! Disobedience in and of itself has some natural consequences - broken fellowship if the Parent is just in keeping with their own righteous disposition. No design is necessary for that. However, if we are talking about corporeal punishments then yes, both hades and gehenna and degree of punishment is by God's design. But if we are talking about sin and death then no design is necessary as they are self-contained consequences.

 

[The Biblicist]

You shift from talking about one particular choice to sin to a generalized 'living above sin,' and it is obvious why you make that shift. When specifically talking about the last time you sinned you cannot say why you didn't "confess your total impotence" or "consciously resist sin by confessing you have no ability to overcome sin." To do so would reveal the INCONSISTENCY of your system.

I have repeatedly told you that when I sin it is my fault alone and Romans 7:14-25 demonstrates that. When the works of the flesh are mortified it is God's grace alone that is credited and Romans 8:12-13 demonstrates that.

So the last time I sinned it was I that sinned - my fault. I take full credit.

So the last time I overcame willful sin it was God's grace alone that is to be credited as it was God who worked in me both "to will and to do of His good pleasure." I take no credit or else the text would read "For it is God AND ME that works both to will and to do God's good pleasure." Apparently that is what you believe? Is that a faithful translation of how you interpret Philippians 2:13???

 

[Skandelon]

However, you are demanding that God must have designed "disobedience" for it to exist!

No, I've never argued that. I'm ONLY talking about the CONSEQUENCES of disobedience. You seem to think that the condition of total inability just couldn't have been helped by God, as if He was a victim of it as much as we were. Surely we can agree that God had a say in whether or not disobedience would result in the loss of response ability. Surely you can agree that God COULD HAVE, if he wanted to, prevented all men from being born totally unable to respond to His revelation? Surely you are not going to argue that was just beyond God's abilities.

 

[Skandelon]

I have repeatedly told you that when I sin it is my fault alone and Romans 7:14-25 demonstrates that. When the works of the flesh are mortified it is God's grace alone that is credited and Romans 8:12-13 demonstrates that.

So the last time I sinned it was I that sinned - my fault. I take full credit.

But you still haven't told us WHY you didn't resist the temptation the last time you sinned. You are claiming its your fault, but not telling us WHY you didn't resist.

The last time you sinned, do you believe that God gave you all that was necessary for you to resist? Yes or no?

 

[The Biblicist]

But you still haven't told us WHY you didn't resist the temptation the last time you sinned. You are claiming its your fault, but not telling us WHY you didn't resist.

Tell me, is failing to resist temptation a sin? Of course it is! Did I not tell you repeately that I am at fault for my sins??? Did I not provide the reason for my total inability to do righteousness when I gave you Romans 7:18-22? Of couse I did.

The last time you sinned, do you believe that God gave you all that was necessary for you to resist? Yes or no?

Of course God has not given me or anyone else "all that was necessary" to resist sin and He is under no obligation to do that or else WE WOULD BE GLORIFIED NOW as that is the only possible way we can overcome sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Tell me, can you live above sin??? Can you resist sins of omission?

 

[The Biblicist]

No, I've never argued that. I'm ONLY talking about the CONSEQUENCES of disobedience. You seem to think that the condition of total inability just couldn't have been helped by God, as if He was a victim of it as much as we were. Surely we can agree that God had a say in whether or not disobedience would result in the loss of response ability. Surely you can agree that God COULD HAVE, if he wanted to, prevented all men from being born totally unable to respond to His revelation? Surely you are not going to argue that was just beyond God's abilities.

Hell is a PLACE designed by God for sinners. In hell there are designed degrees of punishment designed for sinners.

God IS light and God IS life and God IS righteous and thus to rebell against God IS darkness and IS death and IS unrighteousness. Hence, no design is necessary for darkness, death and unrighteousness. Death IS separation from God who is LIFE and who is RIGHTEOUSNESS and who is LIGHT and thus such separation results in TOTAL depravity as such a nature is not merely totally void of life, righteousness and light but that very deprivity is in opposition to life, righteousness and light as that is the very nature of sin (rebellion). Therefore, as such, total inability is the natural consequence because that nature is not only totally void of life, righteousness and light but in opposition to life, righteousness and light.

Reread what I have said above carefully several times before responding.

 

[prophet]

Quickened = made alive

Jn 5:21-24
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eph 2:1-7
Chapter 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Passed from death unto life = quickened.

Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life:and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here we have our "positional" quickening. Our names are passed from the books of the dead, unto the book of life.

 

[Winman]

Hell is a PLACE designed by God for sinners. In hell there are designed degrees of punishment designed for sinners.

God IS light and God IS life and God IS righteous and thus to rebell against God IS darkness and IS death and IS unrighteousness. Hence, no design is necessary for darkness, death and unrighteousness. Death IS separation from God who is LIFE and who is RIGHTEOUSNESS and who is LIGHT and thus such separation results in TOTAL depravity as such a nature is not merely totally void of life, righteousness and light but that very deprivity is in opposition to life, righteousness and light as that is the very nature of sin (rebellion). Therefore, as such, total inability is the natural consequence because that nature is not only totally void of life, righteousness and light but in opposition to life, righteousness and light.

Reread what I have said above carefully several times before responding.

Biblicist teaches one falsehood after another.

First, hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not men.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Yes, those who reject Jesus shall be cast into hell and the lake of fire, but that is not why God prepared hell. It is God's intention that men be saved.

Next, Biblicist loves to prove that all men are so depraved they cannot respond to God. But the scriptures say man is made upright, and that man is made in the similitude of God.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Biblicist fulfills this verse, speaking evil of men who are made after the similitude of God.

Next, Biblicist misinterprets Romans 7 and claims even Christians have no victory over sin, but are subject to the law of sin. But Paul says the Spirit has made us free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Not only CAN a Christian live a holy life, that is exactly what we are supposed to do.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

If you want to learn false doctrine, just listen to Biblicist.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist teaches one falsehood after another.

First, hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not men.

You need to keep up with the posts if you are going to make accusations. In the previous post to the one you responded to I plainly stated hell was made by God for fallen angels. In this post I said it was made "for sinners" and fallen angels are sinners.

Here are my exact words:

God certainly designed hell as a PLACE for Satan and his angels and consequently all who follow him with PENAL CONSEQUENCES.

You have falsely accused me! Read before you make accusations! Do I expect an apology from you? As soon as pigs can fly!

Next, Biblicist loves to prove that all men are so depraved they cannot respond to God. But the scriptures say man is made upright, and that man is made in the similitude of God.

You are confusing the prefallen state of man with the post-fallen state of man.

 

[Skandelon]

Hell is a PLACE designed by God for sinners. In hell there are designed degrees of punishment designed for sinners.

God IS light and God IS life and God IS righteous and thus to rebell against God IS darkness and IS death and IS unrighteousness. Hence, no design is necessary for darkness, death and unrighteousness.

So it is your view that God has never had any control over the inability of man's fallen nature to respond willingly to his revelation? Is that what you are telling us? God is able to irresistibly change man's nature and thus make them decide otherwise, but He is simply not able to enable them to make a decision of their own, right? God is a victim of the nature of sin, just as much as we are, right? He had no control over that? Is that your view?

 

[Winman]

You need to keep up with the posts if you are going to make accusations. In the previous post to the one you responded to I plainly stated hell was made by God for fallen angels. In this post I said it was made "for sinners" and fallen angels are sinners.

Here are my exact words:

God certainly designed hell as a PLACE for Satan and his angels and consequently all who follow him with PENAL CONSEQUENCES.

You have falsely accused me! Read before you make accusations! Do I expect an apology from you? As soon as pigs can fly!

You are confusing the prefallen state of man with the post-fallen state of man.

Yeah, that's the problem, I'm the confused one.

 

[Winman]

So it is your view that God has never had any control over the inability of man's fallen nature to respond willingly to his revelation? Is that what you are telling us? God is able to irresistibly change man's nature and thus make them decide otherwise, but He is simply not able to enable them to make a decision of their own, right? God is a victim of the nature of sin, just as much as we are, right? He had no control over that? Is that your view?

And YOU are NEVER going to win a debate by lobbing the ball down the middle so your opponent can sock it out of the park. Why do you ask so many questions of your opponent? You really believe this guy is going to suddenly agree with you?

If you know something is wrong, SAY IT. Don't ask someone like Biblicist to admit his views are illogical, it ain't going to happen.

 

[Skandelon]

And YOU are NEVER going to win a debate by...

I'm not motivated by 'winning a debate.' I just enjoy the discussion. BTW, your method hasn't 'won' any either, as the only 'victory' in a forum like this one is in the eyes of beholder.

 

[Winman]

I'm not motivated by 'winning a debate.' I just enjoy the discussion. BTW, your method hasn't 'won' any either, as the only 'victory' in a forum like this one is in the eyes of beholder.

Oh, I agree, and I do not try to "win" debates for the object of winning, but because I believe I am correct on certain issues. I debate for what I believe to be the truth's sake.

Nevertheless, it is still a competition of ideas similar to a sport. And if you are going to persuade folks, you need to use winning technique. Constantly begging your opponent to agree with you is not one of them.

If you have scripture, use scripture to PROVE your view is correct. If your opponent doesn't agree, others who are fair minded will.

And I know for a fact that folks listen to me.

Look at Biblicist, or P4T, do they try to be a gentleman and get you to agree with them? NO, they run over you like a steam-roller.

I would suggest if you want to survive, you debate in like form. Try it for awhile, you might like it.

 

[Skandelon]

Look at Biblicist, or P4T, do they try to be a gentleman and get you to agree with them? NO, they run over you like a steam-roller.

I would suggest if you want to survive, you debate in like form. Try it for awhile, you might like it.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." -George Bernard Shaw