The Nature of the Church, OT and NT

[Revmitchell]

All of the faithful in Hebrews 11 cp. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Apparently you do not understand what indwelt means. As such you and I can no longer discuss this issue.

 

[1689Dave]

Apparently you do not understand what indwelt means. As such you and I can no longer discuss this issue.

It takes the new birth before one can have faith. So all the faithful in Hebrews 11 were born again.

Quoting Psalm Psalm 116:10 Paul compares out faith with theirs.

“We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;” (2 Corinthians 4:13)

 

[Revmitchell]

It takes the new birth before one can have faith. So all the faithful in Hebrews 11 were born again.

Quoting Psalm Psalm 116:10 Paul compares out faith with theirs.

“We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;” (2 Corinthians 4:13)

I said indwelt not born again.

 

[TCassidy]

The church in the NT has a number of characteristics that no assembly in the OT has: meeting on Sunday, doing evangelism because of the Great Commission, regenerate membership, baptism, the Lord's Supper, local assemblies, etc.

Christ goes out of his way to establish a clear distinction between the common assembly and His assembly (His church).

In the verse you pointed out to be yet future at that time He also said
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He makes it clear. It is HIS church. HIS assembly. Completely different from the common assemblies of secular society.

 

[1689Dave]

I said indwelt not born again.

It's a matter of degree. Pentecost brought the Charismatic gifts to many instead of just a few in the OT. But all had the Holy Spirit indwelling.

 

[Revmitchell]

It's a matter of degree. Pentecost brought the Charismatic gifts to many instead of just a few in the OT. But all had the Holy Spirit indwelling.

Show me where scripture says anyone had the HG indwelling. Good grief.

 

[1689Dave]

Show me where scripture says anyone had the HG indwelling. Good grief.

“Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.” (Psalm 51:11)

 

[Revmitchell]

“Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.” (Psalm 51:11)

That does not say that the HG is indwelt. Again it appears you do not understand what indwelt is.

 

[1689Dave]

That does not say that the HG is indwelt.

Again, all would have been atheists if not born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, all would have been atheists if not born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Being born again does not mean automatically being indwelt.

 

[1689Dave]

Being born again does not mean automatically being indwelt.

In Acts, the only difference between believers before Pentecost and after was the Charismatic gifts. And this is the only difference between believers of old and at Pentecost.

 

[Yeshua1]

Let's use another thought...

Do you believe the Body of Christ was a reality in the OT?

No, but God did graft those beleiving OT saints into it!

 

[Yeshua1]

I assume you are referring to the common definition of the "church" (Gr. ekklesia) as a "called out assembly." The word doesn't really mean that in NT usage, though that is the etymology (word origin). But the meaning of a word is almost never based on its etymology. To make etymology equal the meaning is called the "root fallacy" in linguistics, or sometimes the "etymological fallacy," defined as "The notion that the 'true meaning' of a word is the one to be expected from its etymology" (P. H. Matthews, Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, p. 128).

The church in the NT has a number of characteristics that no assembly in the OT has: meeting on Sunday, doing evangelism because of the Great Commission, regenerate membership, baptism, the Lord's Supper, local assemblies, etc. The OT saints therefore cannot be part of the church.

However, "I will build" is future active indicative. In other words, the future tense means that when Jesus said that He was not yet building His church.


Sorry, but w Cor 10 teaches nothing about the church. The word is just not there. If we are going to talk about ecclesiology, shouldn't the passage at least have the word "church," or "body of Christ"?

And in 2 Cor. Paul wrote in v. 32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God." So Paul classified the "church of God" as a separate entity from either the Jews or the Gentiles.

The Church of the NT to me was Jesus calling together out of national Israel Spiritual Israel, made up of both saved jews/Gentiles.

 

[Yeshua1]

Give me an example of an OT believer being described as being indwelt by the HG.

David, he was afraid that the Spirit would depart from him...

 

[Yeshua1]

Being born again does not mean automatically being indwelt.

One has to have the Holy Spirit residing in them to be born again!

 

[Yeshua1]

In Acts, the only difference between believers before Pentecost and after was the Charismatic gifts. And this is the only difference between believers of old and at Pentecost.

Actual, it appears that the Old Covenant had regenerated sinners, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come to forever indwell them.

 

[1689Dave]

Actual, it appears that the Old Covenant had regenerated sinners, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come to forever indwell them.

It might appear that way. But Paul says; “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;” (2 Corinthians 4:13)

 

[Yeshua1]

It might appear that way. But Paul says; “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;” (2 Corinthians 4:13)

the Spirit seemed to be indwelling under the OC only those with specific tasks for God, prophets and Kings though!

 

[1689Dave]

the Spirit seemed to be indwelling under the OC only those with specific tasks for God, prophets and Kings though!

It's all a matter of degree. On the Day of Pentecost OT believers were already born again. But the Spirit poured out the Charismatic gifts which only few had in the OT. It was now more common place until the gifts ceased with the completion of the canon. The it was back to business as usual.

 

[loDebar]

This has been discussed at length to most's satisfaction recently in regard to OT saints and if Jesus preached to them between the crucifixion and resurrection.
This verse prompted the discussion:

I Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit

If some did not realized the significance of this verse, it answers the OP directly. We also discussed how those from the Faith chapter are saved and can or when they entered Heaven.