The necessity of scholarship

[webdog]

Well its his candy....He can do what he wants with it. Right.:tongue3:

Not if it contradicts His decrees. He commands all to take it meaning all can take it. Not all will.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well its his candy....He can do what he wants with it. Right.:tongue3:

Amen! :thumbsup:

Some don't like God viewed "this" Sovereignly. "Wait a minute, where's my part in all this, that's not fair!" :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Not if it contradicts His decrees. He commands all to take it meaning all can take it. Not all will.

:thumbsup: Well said. There is nothing in scripture which contradicts the very strong implication of universal ability which comes with the universal offer.

In John 6, the passage most quoted by Cals to support their view of total inability, the gospel was being hidden from Israel (Jesus' audience) and hadn't yet even been sent to the Gentiles. Only the remnant of Israel, those God had hand selected to take the message to the world were being given to Christ to learn from Him directly and be the foundation of the church and the authoritative authors of our scriptures.

 

[JesusFan]

:thumbsup: Well said. There is nothing in scripture which contradicts the very strong implication of universal ability which comes with the universal offer.

In John 6, the passage most quoted by Cals to support their view of total inability, the gospel was being hidden from Israel (Jesus' audience) and hadn't yet even been sent to the Gentiles. Only the remnant of Israel, those God had hand selected to take the message to the world were being given to Christ to learn from Him directly and be the foundation of the church and the authoritative authors of our scriptures.

You mean those 'elected unto salvation" by a Soveirgn act of the Will of God?

isreal represents in a limited sense 'whole world"
All heard and saw messiah in their midst, but ONLY those God called and enabled were able to "freely" come to Christ, rest stayed dead in their sin natures and died without Christ, by free will "exercised" to reject jesus

those chosen/saved by gods grace allowed to be saved, rest allowed to stay dead in the sin natures and "blind" to messiah in their very midst!

 

[quantumfaith]

That's purely subjective.

Give a detailed hypothetical context?

Now, say we have Dr. Erwin Lutzer, Dr. R. C. Sproul, John MacArthur Jr. debating JW's in a public debate. We'd be immediately aware of who is wrong in this debate, misrepresenting Scriptures &c as it would necessitate speaking of the Deity of Christ, and Salvation by faith, v. works. These are of course fundamental doctrines.

- Peace

OK, so now I am confused, so lets just skip it for now.

 

[quantumfaith]

Youa and I BOTH agree that the Gospel is sufficient to save all those who can respond by faith, where we disagree is that you assume all can decide yes/no for jesus, mine is that ONLY those elcted by god will have means able to do that...

You have just peered into the "kernel" of at least one of the issues of difference between the "C" and non-C.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well its his candy....He can do what he wants with it. Right.:tongue3:

Well of course He CAN, HE is God. "We" are not trying to tell you or anyone what God has to do, that would be.....well just plain stupid. "We" are trying to say, that it is our understanding of the totality of scriptures, that this is how we believe God designed the "system". That is all.

Blessings

 

[Skandelon]

isreal represents in a limited sense 'whole world"
All heard and saw messiah in their midst, but ONLY those God called and enabled were able to "freely" come to Christ, rest stayed dead in their sin natures and died without Christ, by free will "exercised" to reject jesus

But why couldn't they (Israel) believe?

Option 1: The Calvinist's Reply
"Because they were born totally depraved and thus unable to believe in Christ." -Calvinist

Option 2: The Biblical Reply
"For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." - Jesus

 

[JesusFan]

You have just peered into the "kernel" of at least one of the issues of difference between the "C" and non-C.

Also points out a difference even between Arms!
Some here hold that man IS same state as cals say we are, Depraived in their Sin, unable to come to jesus so God sends prevelient grace to ALL man so that ALL can freely decide to reject accept Christ

others in Arm say that man still has 'enough" in him even fallen, as the Gospel itself can produce faith in man enough to be able to accept Christ

 

[quantumfaith]

Also points out a difference even between Arms!
Some here hold that man IS same state as cals say we are, Depraived in their Sin, unable to come to jesus so God sends prevelient grace to ALL man so that ALL can freely decide to reject accept Christ

others in Arm say that man still has 'enough" in him even fallen, as the Gospel itself can produce faith in man enough to be able to accept Christ

I think that is a fair assessment.

 

[Winman]

The only name which I have used in this discussion was Winman who brazenly and repeatedly boasts that he does not need any teachers.

I must be Luke's nemesis! I take this as a compliment. :thumbsup:

Everything Luke has said in this tread and other threads can really be summed up as this, Luke believes in a separate Clergy and Laity. He considers himself a member of the elite Clergy. The rest of us are the ignorant Laity. We should not speak, we should not think for ourselves, we should just follow orders like mindless sheep. That is really what this is all about folks.

Luke repeatedly insists a person must study under teachers to be a scholar. I guarantee you he has specific teachers in mind, Reformed teachers. This is not one bit different than the Catholic Church that used to forbid members to read scripture. They didn't want anybody getting out of line. They didn't want anybody questioning their interpretation of scripture. They didn't want anyone thinking for themselves. They also believed folks like this were dangerous, and many paid with their lives. This is old stuff folks.

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. The Council added these words: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary."

Don't be fooled folks, this is what Luke is all about. He wants to control what others think. Those who read and study the scriptures outside of Reformed theology must be stopped. If they cannot be stopped, then they must be labeled heretics, ignorant, wicked...

Luke has already misrepresented scripture in Jude as Amy pointed out. He applied scripture that was clearly speaking of unbelievers to believers. He is guilty of the very thing he accuses others of here, speaking of things he does not know or understand.

But that's OK when he does it, because he is the clergy, and we are the ignorant laity.

 

[quantumfaith]

I must be Luke's nemesis! I take this as a compliment. :thumbsup:

Everything Luke has said in this tread and other threads can really be summed up as this, Luke believes in a separate Clergy and Laity. He considers himself a member of the elite Clergy. The rest of us are the ignorant Laity. We should not speak, we should not think for ourselves, we should just follow orders like mindless sheep. That is really what this is all about folks.

Luke repeatedly insists a person must study under teachers to be a scholar. I guarantee you he has specific teachers in mind, Reformed teachers. This is not one bit different than the Catholic Church that used to forbid members to read scripture. They didn't want anybody getting out of line. They didn't want anybody questioning their interpretation of scripture. They didn't want anyone thinking for themselves. They also believed folks like this were dangerous, and many paid with their lives. This is old stuff folks.



Don't be fooled folks, this is what Luke is all about. He wants to control what others think. Those who read and study the scriptures outside of Reformed theology must be stopped. If they cannot be stopped, then they must be labeled heretics, ignorant, wicked...

Luke has already misrepresented scripture in Jude as Amy pointed out. He applied scripture that was clearly speaking of unbelievers to believers. He is guilty of the very thing he accuses others of here, speaking of things he does not know or understand.

But that's OK when he does it, because he is the clergy, and we are the ignorant laity.

I percieve that I am also on the "nemesis" list.

 

[Skandelon]

Also points out a difference even between Arms!
Some here hold that man IS same state as cals say we are, Depraived in their Sin, unable to come to jesus so God sends prevelient grace to ALL man so that ALL can freely decide to reject accept Christ

others in Arm say that man still has 'enough" in him even fallen, as the Gospel itself can produce faith in man enough to be able to accept Christ

I'd take issue with the second characterization. It's not that we believe there is "enough" in fallen man, but we believe the gracious Gospel to be powerful enough to save fallen man. It's not about us trying to say men are better, it about saying God's means are sufficient so that men are truly without excuse.

 

[Amy.G]

Luke has already misrepresented scripture in Jude as Amy pointed out. He applied scripture that was clearly speaking of unbelievers to believers. He is guilty of the very thing he accuses others of here, speaking of things he does not know or understand.

But that's OK when he does it, because he is the clergy, and we are the ignorant laity.

What an excellent point! Luke needs to "keep silent". :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

But why couldn't they (Israel) believe?

Option 1: The Calvinist's Reply
"Because they were born totally depraved and thus unable to believe in Christ." -Calvinist

Option 2: The Biblical Reply
"For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." - Jesus

JesusFan, I didn't see that you replied to this post???

 

[Winman]

What an excellent point! Luke needs to "keep silent". :laugh:

Luke doesn't like me because I show much scripture that refutes Calvinism. I am a threat to him. He cannot tolerate that and wants to silence myself and anyone else who stands up to him. He cannot deny the scripture, but he argues we abuse and misinterpret scripture, making it to appear to say what it does not say. He says myself and others do this out of ignorance. He must do all he can to discredit those who oppose him.

This is old stuff, the Catholic Church did this to many tens of thousands of people who opposed their false doctrine. People were tortured, imprisoned, banished, executed... He can't do that, so all he can do is attempt to discredit those who oppose him.

What is truly ironic is that he is the one who mindlessly accepts what others teach. If he were to truly study the scriptures on his own, I guarantee he would find most of his doctrine total error.

 

[JesusFan]

I'd take issue with the second characterization. It's not that we believe there is "enough" in fallen man, but we believe the gracious Gospel to be powerful enough to save fallen man. It's not about us trying to say men are better, it about saying God's means are sufficient so that men are truly without excuse.

The 2 camps within Arnms would divide on this line...

Some would say man Exactly as cals see him as being... Spiritually dead, DOES need external; and internal acts of grace from/of God to get saved...

Gospel message not enough to them, Still MST have prevelient grace applied to them apart from the Gospel, once received they can freely accept /reject

other position sees man as basically dead as DHK says that he is, dead to relationship ONLY with God, and still can freely decide to accept jesus or not, we still have free will enough remaining in us, even after the fall...

So arms among themselves differ on results of the fall to man, and IF God supplies internal grace to go with external Word or not!

 

[Don]

The Apostles did not NEED teachers. They received it from the mouth of God.

Talking about only one particular apostle here, Luke: Paul. Who became an apostle *after* Christ was crucified.

The other apostles were physically present with Jesus, and validate your statement. This does not apply to Paul. Did Paul receive his teaching from the physical mouth of God? Or from revelation?

 

[Skandelon]

The 2 camps within Arnms would divide on this line...

Some would say man Exactly as cals see him as being... Spiritually dead, DOES need external; and internal acts of grace from/of God to get saved...

Gospel message not enough to them, Still MST have prevelient grace applied to them apart from the Gospel, once received they can freely accept /reject

other position sees man as basically dead as DHK says that he is, dead to relationship ONLY with God, and still can freely decide to accept jesus or not, we still have free will enough remaining in us, even after the fall...

So arms among themselves differ on results of the fall to man, and IF God supplies internal grace to go with external Word or not!

My issue is how can someone claim that man is so dead that a "life-giving" gospel wrought by God himself is not sufficient for all who hear it?

How is it that a message sent by God for the purpose of brining reconciliation to his enemies can't be received by his enemies?

How is it that a God sent message meant to set men free can't be heard because men are just too enslaved?

I just think that undermines the power of God unto salvation and gives men the perfect excuse for rejecting the clear gospel truth.

 

[quantumfaith]

My issue is how can someone claim that man is so dead that a "life-giving" gospel wrought by God himself is not sufficient for all who hear it?

How is it that a message sent by God for the purpose of brining reconciliation to his enemies can't be received by his enemies?

How is it that a God sent message meant to set men free can't be heard because men are just too enslaved?

I just think that undermines the power of God unto salvation and gives men the perfect excuse for rejecting the clear gospel truth.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: