The necessity of scholarship

[Luke2427]

So Luke, please share with us when you arrived at the level of education and scholarship that allows you the ability to teach the rest of us?

There is no date for this. There is a point at which one does not know something and then there is a point when he does. It is not something that can be written on a calendar.

And since I am not well educated eschatalogically, for example, you will not find me speaking authoritatively in any of these threads.

I am not qualified.

What is it that makes you a Spirit gifted teacher? Are you a Spirit gifted teacher?

The only thing that makes ANYBODY a Spirit Gifted ANYTHING is the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit who gifts someone to teach also leads that gifted person to learn at the feet of other Spirit gifted teachers BEFORE he goes to teaching.

Are you applying the same level of standards on yourself that you are applying to everyone else?

Finally. For years I preached on things I should not have been preaching on because I was not qualified to preach on those things.

That was a wicked thing for me to do but I was too ignorant and arrogant to consider that.

I used to preach absolutely dangerous and IDIOTIC things like all other versions of the Bible besides the KJV are of the devil.
I preached that it is an abomination for a woman to wear pants. an ABOMINATION!!!

I called myself a trinitarian but I preached Monarchialistic Modalism many times!!!!!

That was vile and evil and wicked for me to have done and it is the same for you and everyone else.

It is fine to preach what you REALLY know. It is EXTRAORDINARY wickedness for you to preach or teach that which you do NOT really know.

 

[matt wade]

But when an unlearned person who has never dived deep beneath the surface by way of REAL and biblical education begins to speak on things too deep for them- THESE people are EVIL and dangerous.

But, wait, if these unlearned people speak on issues that are too deep for them, hasn't God made their desires so that they would speak on those issues? So is God then evil and dangerous for adjusting these people's desires?

And if they do speak on these issues isn't it for the Glory of God, since all things are for His Glory?

 

[Luke2427]

Your op rely's solely on man and leaves God out of it entirely.

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Here is my THIRD sentence!!:

TAUGHT by PEOPLE who God has gifted to teach who themselves have been educated by people God has gifted to teach.

 

[Luke2427]

But, wait, if these unlearned people speak on issues that are too deep for them, hasn't God made their desires so that they would speak on those issues? So is God then evil and dangerous for adjusting these people's desires?

And if they do speak on these issues isn't it for the Glory of God, since all things are for His Glory?

Start another thread on mediate and proximate causes and I will answer you there.

Even the HARDEST determinist still recognizes that it is evil on the part of the one who is actually DOING the sin.

So if you do it, you may indeed be doing what God ordained for you to do but you are still evil for doing it and you will still be judged- this is true in the most DETERMINISTIC scheme of things.

You point then is a red herring.

But if you want to discuss that I will gladly meet you on a thread that addresses that.

This thread does not.

 

[JesusFan]

Only if you think the Holy Spirit is not God.

Gifted teachers are ones who are GIFTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO TEACH.

So if you are saying that I am leaving out God when I speak of Holy Spirit gifted teachers, then you must not be trinitarian.

Agree that the Holy Spirit has chosen to send into Body "gifted" teachers to help train/mature those under their teaching ministry

Agree that one should know past history on the doctrines/current scholership views etc IF raised up by God to be a formal teacher of Word of God
Agree such a one SHOULD know/learn original languages Bible wrote in

BUT

The Holy Spirit IS best teache rof the Bible as HE wrote/inspired it

person can be learned in Greek/Hebrew, know church historical views/scholarship etc

Still be quite liberal and deny cardinal Christian Truths!

 

[Skandelon]

In it's simplest form here is the argument: If you don't REALLY know what you are talking about you ought not talk about it.

A little more detailed: When it comes to Scripture you need to REALLY know what you are talking about before you talk about it. Really knowing requires that you are educated. Educated requires that you are TAUGHT by PEOPLE who God has gifted to teach who themselves have been educated by people God has gifted to teach.

I think we agree here on principle Luke. As usual it is the harsh edge that comes with your words that most have difficulty with. Please allow me to try to say the same thing in a bit more "kind" manner and see if you can agree.

To say "you ought not to talk about it" suggests that people can't ask questions, disagree, or engage in conversation about matters they aren't studied in, but how else are they to learn if they don't engage in conversation about new topics?

I think what you mean is that people who haven't studied a particular subject should speak as if they are an authority on the matter. They shouldn't pretend to know more than they do. Then they should seek to learn through discussion, study and engaging the topic.

Would you agree thus far?

 

[webdog]

Who made this rule? Do you have any scripture for it?

I'm glad I cannot see his posts anymore (except for the occasional one someone replies to)...[snip]

 

[JesusFan]

I think we agree here on principle Luke. As usual it is the harsh edge that comes with your words that most have difficulty with. Please allow me to try to say the same thing in a bit more "kind" manner and see if you can agree.

To say "you ought not to talk about it" suggests that people can't ask questions, disagree, or engage in conversation about matters they aren't studied in, but how else are they to learn if they don't engage in conversation about new topics?

I think what you mean is that people who haven't studied a particular subject should speak as if they are an authority on the matter. They shouldn't pretend to know more than they do. Then they should seek to learn through discussion, study and engaging the topic.

Would you agree thus far?

Good to keep in mind EVEN the Apostles were rebuked , see paul to Peter
ONLY Jesus "infallible" teacher

Also, thinl ALL can be learners of word study and apply it can become learned in it By HS and by reading fruits other labors

And that some are actually "gifted" called as formal teachers!

 

[Skandelon]

So if you do it, you may indeed be doing what God ordained for you to do but you are still evil for doing it and you will still be judged- this is true in the most DETERMINISTIC scheme of things.

You point then is a red herring.

I'm not sure how it is a red herring to bring up the point that you are challenging people to do what only God can causally determine them to do through the manipulation of their nature/desires. In your deterministic view, God has to give man the desire to be studious and nothing else, including your exhortations, will make that happen. So, I think the question is why are you fighting against God and what he has foreordained others to desire? After all, they can no more change their desires than a leopard can change his spots, right?

 

[Luke2427]

Agree that the Holy Spirit has chosen to send into Body "gifted" teachers to help train/mature those under their teaching ministry

Agree that one should know past history on the doctrines/current scholership views etc IF raised up by God to be a formal teacher of Word of God
Agree such a one SHOULD know/learn original languages Bible wrote in

BUT

The Holy Spirit IS best teache rof the Bible as HE wrote/inspired it

person can be learned in Greek/Hebrew, know church historical views/scholarship etc

Still be quite liberal and deny cardinal Christian Truths!

I don't know of anyone on earth who denies that.

What is your point?

The fact of the matter is that the same Holy Spirit is the One who gives us teachers and expects us to learn from them.

No one ought to teach who has not been taught.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm not sure how it is a red herring to bring up the point that you are challenging people to do what only God can causally determine them to do through the manipulation of their nature/desires. In your deterministic view, God has to give man the desire to be studious and nothing else, including your exhortations, will make that happen. So, I think the question is why are you fighting against God and what he has foreordained others to desire? After all, they can no more change their desires than a leopard can change his spots, right?

Start a thread and I will meet you there. Otherwise this is pointless antagonizing.

This thread is not about the decrees of God or ultimate and proximate causes. This thread is about the necessity of scholarship before one speaks on a matter.

 

[preacher4truth]

I appreciate the ones on this thread who are contributing, and the ones who do drive-bys about ignoring others, and scour threads to praise others only to anatagonize, well, it's not hard to discern ones walking with Him and not walking with Him.

"Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy." 1 Corinthians 4:1

The seriousness and solemn duty of the Message and Scriptures is declared herein; That we are Slaves of Christ (we should be) and we are Stewards (managers) of His mysteries. Are we enslaved to Him then to this duty, or not?

We should take this endeavor and calling very seriously.

This is Luke2427s point.

Play off the ones who drive-by and antagonize. These I believe are works of the flesh. Let the wise put them away.

I agree with Luke2427s big picture. Those who are not as serious about the walk that comes with this endeavor are clearly discernable from those who are within this thread.

- Grace and Peace to His

 

[Amy.G]

It's all through the Bible.

Jude 10 is just one of a myriad of examples.

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jude 10 is not talking about Christians but about unsaved and condemned men. Read on to verse 12.


Jude 1:12-13 These are spots in your love feasts, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about by winds; trees whose fruit withers, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


Try again.

 

[sag38]

Actually I understand what Luke is trying to say. But, the way he says it has a condescending and arrogant tone to it as do a lot of his posts.

 

[Luke2427]

Jude 10 is not talking about Christians but about unsaved and condemned men. Read on to verse 12.


Jude 1:12-13 These are spots in your love feasts, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about by winds; trees whose fruit withers, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


Try again.

It id evil to speak of things that you know not REGARDLESS if you are saved or not saved.

Saul disobeyed God. I can say to Christians DON'T disobey god like Saul did even though Saul may not have been a Christian.

Disobedience is sin no matter WHO does it.

Speaking on theology when you don't know what you are talking about is sin no matter WHO does it- saved or lost.

Since the Christians of the New Testament were not so plagued with the arrogance that plagues the church today examples of THEM doing it is going to be rare.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't know of anyone on earth who denies that.

What is your point?

The fact of the matter is that the same Holy Spirit is the One who gives us teachers and expects us to learn from them.

No one ought to teach who has not been taught.

"Point" is that ONLY "quaification" a Chrisiian really needs in order to post with understanding here on BB is to be filled with HS, study the Bible, be an applier of what is learned, and be open to see what others have to say!

One CAN indded know a lot of the Bible and theology even as a "lay person" or should 'scholars" only need apply?

 

[Skandelon]

This thread is about the necessity of scholarship before one speaks on a matter.

And I'm asking how God's influence on one's scholarship and desire to speak is a red herring and unrelated to this discussion? Do you just not want to bring God's influence in on this discussion so you can continue to rebuke men for not desiring what God has casually determined them not to desire?

I can understand why you would want to overlook that point. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Don]

Point 1: We should study to show ourselves approved.

Agreed.

Point 2 appears to be: We should study under God-gifted teachers.

In general, agreed. God provides the gift of teaching; those who have the gift, should use it.

Argument regarding point 2: We can only learn if we are taught by teachers.

Not necessarily true. Look at Paul:
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Luke, would you clarify the points of argument: Are you saying that we can only learn if we place ourselves under teachers? Or are there other modes of learning the scriptures?

 

[preacher4truth]

And I'm asking how God's influence on one's scholarship and desire to speak is a red herring and unrelated to this discussion? Do you just not want to bring God's influence in on this discussion so you can continue to rebuke men for not desiring what God has casually determined them not to desire?

I can understand why you would want to overlook that point. :smilewinkgrin:

God works in us to will of His Good pleasure. Php 2:13

Not all are teachers, there is a distinguishment of this within the NT.

God does exercise His determinitive will in choosing ministries. 1 Cor. 1:1, not the word "will" (NASB)

God doesn't cause some to desire to teach, as He has gifted us according to His own purpose.

Those who do speak the Word should take it very seriously, 1 Cor. 4:1

 

[Luke2427]

Point 1: We should study to show ourselves approved.

Agreed.

Point 2 appears to be: We should study under God-gifted teachers.

In general, agreed. God provides the gift of teaching; those who have the gift, should use it.

Argument regarding point 2: We can only learn if we are taught by teachers.

Not necessarily true. Look at Paul:
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Luke, would you clarify the points of argument: Are you saying that we can only learn if we place ourselves under teachers? Or are there other modes of learning the scriptures?

The Apostles did not NEED teachers. They received it from the mouth of God.