The New Eve; "the mother of my Lord" [Luke 1:43]

[Jerome]

any claim that Jesus had uterine siblings is one completely foreign to Scripture

Gospel of Matt. 1:23-25

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS"

 

[Walter]

Hello, I’m a Catholic, a Roman Catholic. Catholics do not believe man is created evil but cursed by the act of one man and one woman, Adam and Eve. Both the punishment and the guilt of their sin are inherited for being in the tribe of men, unlike others we do not receive this curse genetically (i.e. 'sin nature').

If you believe in the Trinity then you are obliged by faith to believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary must be Immaculate and the mother of God as an imperative to Christianity (beyond papal decree). As you know, the Holy Trinity is God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit; three Persons in perfect unity of one essence, that of God. The Logos, Jesus Christ, is One of Person with two natures perfectly and inseparably joined, God/Man. Christ is God (the uncreated and the creator of all things) and we know he was born of woman, i.e. humanity – wholly God and wholly man. The prophecies of the Old Testament tell of God's plan that the Messiah is be God (uncreated) born of woman (creature). Thus, according to God's revealed plan Christ can only be wholly the perfect God, and perfectly a whole man when born of woman who is the new Eve – having never known sin, i.e. the Immaculate Mary. She becomes the Ark of the New Covenant. Thus to deny the Blessed Virgin Mary as Immaculate, or as the mother of God, mother of the Living Grace, or as the mother of your redemption, or as the mother of your salvation, is to deny Christ as God/man thereby failing to acknowledge Christ is the Theandros.

Consequently, true faith makes the improbable conclusion obligatory; bringing us to a Woman whose child is the perfect union of both God and man. Mary literally and metaphorically (symbolically) is full of grace, mother of God, mother of our redemption. So we quite comfortably adore her.

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.”

This is why to discern the true faith in Jesus Christ we can look first to the others views of the Virgin Mary. No other faith, other than the one true faith of Jesus Christ acknowledges the mother of God. Like St. Liguori says, "we acknowledge [Mary the mother of God] for that beautiful aurora, which was always resplendent with the divine light; that chosen ark of salvation, safe from the common shipwreck of sin; for that perfect and immaculate dove, as thy divine spouse declared thee; that enclosed garden, which was the delight of God; that fountain sealed up, which the enemy never entered to trouble; finally, that spotless lily, which thou art, springing up among the thorns of the children of Adam; for whereas all are born defiled with original sin, and enemies of God, thou wast born pure, all spotless, and in all things a friend of thy Creator.”

Surely the Baptist holds Mary in the same light?

(I noticed there was no designation for ‘Catholic’ except non-Baptist)

JoeT

Hello, JoeT. I was Baptist when I joined this board many years ago. I studied what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY taught and the writings of the earliest Christians post Apostolic age and realized that the Church was Catholic from the very beginning. Now I am Catholic and have an even closer walk with the Lord than as an evangelical. I have the opportunity to attend mass daily and pray the Daily Office. Welcome to the board!

 

[Walpole]

Gospel of Matt. 1:23-25

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS"

St. Matthew's nativity account, which you quote, is only concerned with the events up until the nativity. His narrative is not focused on Joseph or Mary's conjugal life after the nativity. If he was, he would have written "until after" if he wanted to avoid any ambiguity. St. Matthew's nativity narrative is about identifying the Messiah, not about Joseph's sex life.

 

[JoeT]

Let's talk the truth for the good of all.

Truth is my favorite subject, OK let's talk.

What is the use of honoring Mary and dishonoring God the Father, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Maybe before we start talking you should read my post. I didn't say anything about worshiping Mary like one worships God. I didn't say one needed to dishonor or bring God the Father, or the Son or the Holy Spirit down in order that one honor Mary.

JESUS says: How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?(John 5:v.44)

Another truth needs to be discussed, Jesus Christ says we should not seek the teachings on one another, but instead seek the honor of knowing from God. If we seek God, we seek Truth and vice versa - God and truth are convertible.

What is the consequence of this cult of idolizing Mary? By the way, we must know, and be sure, that Mary died and is waiting her resurrection of this last Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium. Yeah, what is the consequence of this idolater cult of Mary?

You do not know, nor do I know that she was assumed into heaven while she was still breathing. Many Catholics believe, which is within our doctrine, that Mary may have died before being assumed into heaven.

Remember that for this reason and the idolatrous tendencies within the church of Rome, dominated by the emperor of the Roman Empire and his possible successors, Apostle Paul wrote to the Romans warning them of the consequent punishments of the practice of idolatry. And which are or how sound these terrible punishments, according to the warning of Paul the Apostle to the Romans?

The Catholic Church in Rome or elsewhere has no idolatrous 'tendencies' or teachings. I think the idea of idolatry comes from a certain ignorance of the Church on your part.

Tell me, which is the better thing to say to Jesus Christ as He advocates for us before the throne of Heaven. "I loved your mother as my spiritual mother and gave her that honor she was due" or "Your mother was a pot-head!" I wonder which will avail us of the better advocate?

JoeT

 

[loDebar]

That verse says nothing about Mary having six other children.

In Jewish antiquity, "brother(s)" had a much wider meaning than we moderns use. There is NO scripture which identifies another as a son (or daughter) of Mary. Thus, any claim that Jesus had uterine siblings is one completely foreign to Scripture and the regula fidei of Christianity.

This is not Hebrew it is Greek

adelphē a full, own sister one connected by the tie of the Christian religion

adelphos from G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphýs (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like G1):—brother.

Gal 1:19

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

some uses are as you post but not all, and not unbelievers, Jesus's family was at one time

Mat 12:47

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48

¶
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

same words used by others who knew the family

you have been fed lies to support an unneeded doctrine, Why should Mary be venerated? Luke 1:46, she gave all glory to God.

 

[Walpole]

This is not Hebrew it is Greek

adelphē a full, own sister one connected by the tie of the Christian religion

adelphos from G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphýs (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like G1):—brother.

Gal 1:19

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

some uses are as you post but not all, and not unbelievers, Jesus's family was at one time

Mat 12:47

Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48

¶
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

same words used by others who knew the family

you have been fed lies to support an unneeded doctrine, Why should Mary be venerated? Luke 1:46, she gave all glory to God.

Great, now please give me the verse which states Mary's subsequent maternities.

The claim is she had six other children, making them uterine siblings of Jesus. Verse please.

 

[Oseas3]

Do you think the Mother of Jesus Christ is dead?

No I am not thinking that Mary is dead, I am stating with absolute certain she is dead, and I am sure that also all apostles, and all true disciples of JESUS over these two thousand years are dead and wating their resurrection, that is the resurrection of this last Day, that is the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, or seventh and last millennium.

Oh! do you still ignore the biblical teachings God gives us free of charge through His Word? Did you never learned from your religious teachers or guides what is written in 1Thessalonians 4: v.13-17?

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel (archangel Michael), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Like all those in heaven doesn't she have eternal life?

Have you never learned from your religious guides the eternal life will be only and only after the resurrection of the dead? ITOH those which are alive will be caught up together with them? Have you never read Revelation 20:v.6? 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with JESUS a thousand years.

Or is heaven the end of it all; we die on earth only to die in heaven?
JoeT

Oh! excuse-me, what you are saying does not have any sense. I perceive that your religious guides are blind completely. What is written in the Word of God, preached by the Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Church of Corinthians?

1Corinthians 15:v.51-55

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment ... at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Thes.4:v.16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel (Michael), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Revelation 20:v.4-5

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and Judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the Beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[JoeT]

Hello, JoeT. I was Baptist when I joined this board many years ago. I studied what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY taught and the writings of the earliest Christians post Apostolic age and realized that the Church was Catholic from the very beginning. Now I am Catholic and have an even closer walk with the Lord than as an evangelical. I have the opportunity to attend mass daily and pray the Daily Office. Welcome to the board!

Thank you for making me feel welcomed.

My trip across the Tiber wasn't too conventional but at least I didn't have to swim, I managed to get a baptismal ticket to cross at the bridge.

JoeT

 

[Walter]

Gospel of Matt. 1:23-25

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS"

The verse only addresses what occured up until the time Jesus was born–it says nothing about what happened afterward. Some Protestants impose an implication on the verse that isn’t there. The Catholic Answers tract “Brethren of the Lord” points out:

In the Bible, it [until] means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that the action did happen later, which is the modern sense of the term. In fact, if the modern sense is forced on the Bible, some ridiculous meanings result.

Consider this line: “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death” (2 Sam. 6:23). Are we to assume she had children after her death?

There is also the burial of Moses. The book of Deuteronomy says that no one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” (Deut. 34:6, Knox). But we know that no one has known since that day either.

The examples could be multiplied, but you get the idea—nothing can be proved from the use of the word “till” in Matthew 1:25. Recent translations give a better sense of the verse: “He had no relations with her at any time before she bore a son” (New American Bible); “He had not known her when she bore a son” (Knox).

 

[37818]

New American Bible

Modern RC translation.

 

[loDebar]

Great, now please give me the verse which states Mary's subsequent maternities.

The claim is she had six other children, making them uterine siblings of Jesus. Verse please.

I did not say the # but this is six
Mar 6:3

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters (2) here with us? And they were offended at him.

 

[Adonia]

Mar 6:3

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

They were cousins, a term that was not used at that time. Did not those early believers call themselves "brothers" and "sisters"? This issue is one where people have a different interpretation.

Now tell me, cannot Mother Mary be compared to "Ark of the Covenant"? If so, then she would not be used again, she was above all the physical stuff we are involved in. Her main thing in life was bringing God Incarnate into the world and raising Him up, a special purpose for someone if there ever was one - and that is not such a far fetched idea at all.

 

[Oseas3]

Hello, JoeT. I was Baptist when I joined this board many years ago. I studied what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY taught and the writings of the earliest Christians post Apostolic age and realized that the Church was Catholic from the very beginning. Now I am Catholic and have an even closer walk with the Lord than as an evangelical. I have the opportunity to attend mass daily and pray the Daily Office. Welcome to the board!

As all true Christians can see by your post, how the prophetic message of the Apostle Paul written in 1Timothy 4:v.1-2 fulfils LITERALLY in this end of the time.

In the other hand, who is able to fight or make WAR against the Beast of 7 heads, and 10 horns, and upon his horns 10 crowns, and upon his (7) heads the name of blasphemy?

Revelation 18:v.1-5
I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightly with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[Adonia]

2 And he cried mightly with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Sounds like any secular society from England to the USA.

 

[loDebar]

They were cousins, a term that was not used at that time. Did not those early believers call themselves "brothers" and "sisters"? This issue is one where people have a different interpretation.

Now tell me, cannot Mother Mary be compared to "Ark of the Covenant"? If so, then she would not be used again, she was above all the physical stuff we are involved in. Her main thing in life was bringing God Incarnate into the world and raising Him up, a special purpose for someone if there ever was one - and that is not such a far fetched idea at all.

She is not a type of the Ark? The was used a lot idk why you say this?

Why is she being deified? what is the point or doctrine?

Are y'all adopting her as Ashtoreth?

 

[Oseas3]

Sounds like any secular society from England to the USA.

What prevails is the written Word of God . Revelation 18:v.2 will fulfil LITERALLY from now on. There will not escape.

 

[JoeT]

As all true Christians can see by your post, how the prophetic message of the Apostle Paul written in 1Timothy 4:v.1-2 fulfils LITERALLY in this end of the time.

In the other hand, who is able to fight or make WAR against the Beast of 7 heads, and 10 horns, and upon his horns 10 crowns, and upon his (7) heads the name of blasphemy?

Let's see then the true Catholic Christians are not those who are not forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, [this is a special meat] which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving [Eucharist means thanks giving] by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth." [1 Timothy 4:3]. That doesn't describe Catholicism. can you tell us who it looks more like?

Then if you forbid "real meat" i.e. the "Real Presence in the Eucharist" we know form vs 1 and 2 it is "giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared". Giving heed" means "give ample or due consideration". Seems more ominous for those who refuse real meat [that wouldn't be a Catholic, who every day all day serve the "Real Presence"] - that is according to Sacred Scripture.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

There are other reasons we are 'obliged' by faith to honor our spiritual mother, the Queen of Heaven. Christ was of the line of David; His genealogy was carefully laid out in Scripture. The royal line of kings in the House of David had many wives. Their function was to bear sons and successors to the throne. The title of Queen however fell on the woman who was called Gebirah in Hebrew. Gebirah means Queen Mother and is used to define the King's principal counselor.

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV) [source: ]​

Luke testifies when our Lord claimed His Kingdom, reporting Christ saying, "This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears" Luke 4:15-21. The Messianic role of King and God is filled by the person Jesus Christ on that very day. To suggest otherwise, to suggest that his kingdom does not include those of us here on earth simply denies the very Word of God, i.e. heresy.

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)​

His mother then takes her rightful role as Gebriah in the House of David. Assuming the role of Gebriah as Queen Mother she advocated for the people, swaying the King to have mercy. Mary stood by his right hand throughout His ministry on Earth and remains our advocate here on Earth and at His right hand in heaven dispensing His grace.

"Let Heaven sustain me in its embrace, because I am honored above it. For heaven was not Thy mother, but Thou hast made it Thy throne. How much more honorable and venerable than the throne of a king is her mother." And in another place he thus prays to her: ". . . Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me."[Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam, c. S. Ephraem, Hymni de B. Maria, ed. Th. J. Lamy, t. II, Mechliniae, 1886, hymn. XIX, p. 624.; c. Idem, Oratio ad Ssmam Dei Matrem; Opera omnia, Ed. Assemani, t. III (graece), Romae, 1747, pag. 546]​

We see quite clearly then as the Council of Ephesus Mary is Mother of God whose rightful place is the right hand of her Son as Queen Mother of Heaven who sits on the throne of heaven as our Lord.

In denying Mary Mother of God, Queen of Heaven we deny Christ is the Son of God and the promised Messiah.

JoeT

 

[Walpole]

I did not say the # but this is six
Mar 6:3

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters (2) here with us? And they were offended at him.

First, Scripture does not state Mary of Nazareth had any children other than Jesus Christ. Christ is always referred to as THE son of Mary, never A son of Mary.

As for James, Joses and Simon, we know from the other Gospels that they are the sons of Mary of
Cleophas, not Mary of Nazareth (the Mother of Jesus). St. John tells us that it is Mary of Cleophas at the cross (John 19:25), and St. Matthew tells this Mary of Cleophas is the mother of James and Joses. (Mt. 27:56)

Ergo, when James and Joses and Simon are called "brothers" of Jesus, they cannot be uterine brothers because their mother is Mary of Cleophas.

The modern Evangelical Protestant error of claiming Mary had subsequent maternities stems from forcing a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, they skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family. You cannot impose a 21st century Western nuclear family structure with our own use of “brother” to that of Jewish culture in antiquity. The term had a much broader use in antiquity.


Furthermore, Joseph and Mary's marriage was not ordinary in that its teleological end was not procreation, but rather to point to the Kingdom of God. Since they were in the presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Son of God, their life of continence, like that of their Son's, points to the heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to an earthly and carnal one.

 

[loDebar]

First, Scripture does not state Mary of Nazareth had any children other than Jesus Christ. Christ is always referred to as THE son of Mary, never A son of Mary.

As for James, Joses and Simon, we know from the other Gospels that they are the sons of Mary of
Cleophas, not Mary of Nazareth (the Mother of Jesus). St. John tells us that it is Mary of Cleophas at the cross (John 19:25), and St. Matthew tells this Mary of Cleophas is the mother of James and Joses. (Mt. 27:56)

Ergo, when James and Joses and Simon are called "brothers" of Jesus, they cannot be uterine brothers because their mother is Mary of Cleophas.

The modern Evangelical Protestant error of claiming Mary had subsequent maternities stems from forcing a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, they skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family. You cannot impose a 21st century Western nuclear family structure with our own use of “brother” to that of Jewish culture in antiquity. The term had a much broader use in antiquity.


Furthermore, Joseph and Mary's marriage was not ordinary in that its teleological end was not procreation, but rather to point to the Kingdom of God. Since they were in the presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Son of God, their life of continence, like that of their Son's, points to the heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to an earthly and carnal one.

Their village called then brothers and sisters, their neighbors, but others had the same names but their village knew them all from childhood