OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So you also have departed from the Faith! Very sad!
-
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The New Interpreters’s Study Bible (no doubt by accident) makes a case for Preterism!
- Thread starter Logos1
- Start date
So you also have departed from the Faith! Very sad!
I departed from the eschatology, not the Faith. Have you forgotten that distinction? Perhaps I should have put "heretical" in quotes, since I don't see it as heresy.
If by "the Faith" you mean "Bible+Creeds+Tradition (especially recent North American tradition)" then, yes, I did depart from some of that.
If you just mean Scripture (as in Sola Scriptura) then my answer is an emphatic No.
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Prophecy and eschatology equally faulty!
[QUOTE="Logos1]Now I'm going to make a prediction and predict you will go right on and claim you don't have an answer even though Christ and Paul have answered you and I have laid it out in your asked for child like terms.
[/QUOTE]
Well, your predictions are about as good as your eschatology. Yours was a pretty pathetic reply, but it's clearly all I'm going to get, so I shall try to make some use of it. I will also tell you what Col 1:23 actually means.
It may take me a day or two though, so be patient.
I'll be back!
Steve
[QUOTE="Logos1]Now I'm going to make a prediction and predict you will go right on and claim you don't have an answer even though Christ and Paul have answered you and I have laid it out in your asked for child like terms.
[/QUOTE]
Well, your predictions are about as good as your eschatology. Yours was a pretty pathetic reply, but it's clearly all I'm going to get, so I shall try to make some use of it. I will also tell you what Col 1:23 actually means.
It may take me a day or two though, so be patient.
I'll be back!
Steve
hasn't the Church always though seen full/hyper pretierism as being outside of orthodoxy, as heresey?
No, it has not. But even if it did, that should not be the determining factor in accepting or rejecting any belief. Consider, by illustration, the same argument that could be made against Luther in the Reformation times. Luther's interrogators pointed out to him that his strange doctrine of justification by faith (sic) was outside of orthodoxy, seeing that the Church Fathers never heard of it, or taught it (sic).
You show your ignorance of Church History as well as of eschatology.
Luther was easily able to show that many of the Church fathers taught Justification by Faith, thus confounding his opponents.
It's all on the internet if you take the trouble to look for it.
Steve
Luther was easily able to show that many of the Church fathers taught Justification by Faith, thus confounding his opponents.
It's all on the internet if you take the trouble to look for it.
Steve
Since full version of pretierism denies physical Second Coming, bodily physical resurrection, wasn't it always condemned as being heresey?
Yep. Insofar as it was known, it certainly was.
Not reading very carefully, are you? I didn't say that Luther wasn't able to refute them. My point - which you will doubtless overlook again - is that there is a parallel between Luther's "novel" teaching of justification by faith and Preterism. Both were accused of being unscriptural innovation because they did not square with tradition.
And, yes, I do know the historical background. I have even written quite a bit on it.
Further comments by you will not responded to, since you will be on my no-can-see list. I should have kept you there. I remember now your previous rudeness. "Ignorance", indeed.
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Matt 10:23 may have been fulfilled, but if so, it happened around 34-35 A.D. under Saul's (Paul) great persecution.
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem, and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Isn't it possible that this is the great persecution Jesus spoke of in Mat 10:23? The believers in Jerusalem were fleeing for their lives. They were fleeing into other cities of Israel and beyond.
Did Jesus return at this time? YES, when he appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus!
So, perhaps I am wrong, but isn't it possible Jesus appearing to Paul fulfilled this prophecy?
There is far more scriptural evidence for this than 70 A.D..
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem, and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Isn't it possible that this is the great persecution Jesus spoke of in Mat 10:23? The believers in Jerusalem were fleeing for their lives. They were fleeing into other cities of Israel and beyond.
Did Jesus return at this time? YES, when he appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus!
So, perhaps I am wrong, but isn't it possible Jesus appearing to Paul fulfilled this prophecy?
There is far more scriptural evidence for this than 70 A.D..
Embracing my inner heretic
Jesusfan your eschatology has been a journey down the primrose path for two thousand years. It has never proved anything, never been right, and has a perfect record of abject failure for two thousand years and counting. How’s that futurism working out for you?
It is indeed odd to embrace an eschatology that has not a single bible verse to support it. You know as well as myself there is no bible verse where Christ says he will come back a long time in the future, in another generation, or anything else to put it in our future.
You never get to embrace the victory of Christ over death and being reconciled back to God’s presence because you have to wait for Christ to return for that to happen. When you die you can look forward to Sheol if you are right.
Preterists celebrate Christ’s victory and look forward to heaven upon death.
I’m embracing heresy if your style of dogma is main stream eschatology.
Of course the Jewish leaders considered Christ heretical as well—eventually Christianity became the gold standard of religion. Eventually Preterism will become the gold standard of eschatology as well.
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Jesusfan your eschatology has been a journey down the primrose path for two thousand years. It has never proved anything, never been right, and has a perfect record of abject failure for two thousand years and counting. How’s that futurism working out for you?
It is indeed odd to embrace an eschatology that has not a single bible verse to support it. You know as well as myself there is no bible verse where Christ says he will come back a long time in the future, in another generation, or anything else to put it in our future.
You never get to embrace the victory of Christ over death and being reconciled back to God’s presence because you have to wait for Christ to return for that to happen. When you die you can look forward to Sheol if you are right.
Preterists celebrate Christ’s victory and look forward to heaven upon death.
I’m embracing heresy if your style of dogma is main stream eschatology.
Of course the Jewish leaders considered Christ heretical as well—eventually Christianity became the gold standard of religion. Eventually Preterism will become the gold standard of eschatology as well.
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Denial of the Resurrection is Heretical
LOGO
In verse 2 Jesus Christ tells His disciples.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Though Jesus Christ comments only on the destruction of the Temple His disciples ask Him two questions [Verse 3]:
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
1. When shall these things be. That is, when shall the temple be destroyed?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD fulfilled the prophesy of Jesus Christ and many believe the judgment of God on the Jewish nation. Jesus Christ in the chapter 24 addresses both questions of the disciples. Those who say that the destruction of the Temple was the literal return of Jesus Christ, that it fulfills all Scripture regarding that promised return and the subsequent general resurrection, make a “liar” out of God and are, therefore, heretics. The heretical hyper preterists [HHP] do not believe in the bodily resurrection. As for attempting to explain those parts of Chapter 24 that address each question I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of LOGO.
When did Scripture first teach about the resurrection of the body. Each person caonsists of a body and a soul. At death the soul/spirit of the believer returns to God who gave it:
Ecclesiastes1 2:7, KJV
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It must be admitted that the word “resurrection” does not appear in the Old Testament. It is my belief that one of the strongest statements in all of Scripture regarding the resurrection of the body is that made by the patriarch, Job:
Job 19:25-27, KJV
25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
There can be no doubt that God, through the patriarch Job, is teaching the physical resurrection of the body.
There is one other mention in the Old Testament of the bodily resurrection. That recorded by the prophet Daniel:
Daniel 12:2, KJV
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The New Testament is replete with promises of the bodily resurrection. One of the more enlightening for those who would deny the bodily resurrection is the exchange between Jesus Christ and the Sadducees, the 1st Century equivalent of the HHP..
Luke 20:27-38, KJV
[ 27. Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
28. Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man’s brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
29. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
30. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.
31. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.
32. Last of all the woman died also.
33* Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
34. And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
The Sadducees considered themselves to be the ELITE among the Jews, much as the HHP do today, thought they could humiliate this “man from Nazereth”, too arrogant to realize they were confronting the Incarnate God. The passage is self explanatory to those who submit to the Word of God, and Jesus Christ clearly shows that there is a resurrection of the dead. Perhaps most important is the final verse: For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living.
When considering the resurrection of the body ione realize that resurrection does not mean making those who are dead alive again. There are a number of cases in both the Old and new Testament where the dead are raised to life but they all died again. Jesus Christ is the only one who has ever undergone resurrection. The resurrection body is not just a physical body though it is a visible body. The Apostle Paul describes the resurrection as follows:
1 Corinthians 15:35-57, KJV
35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
So we are given to understand by God through the Apostle Paul that the body that is resurrected is different from the body that was buried. We are also told emphatically that through the resurrection of the body: Death is swallowed up in victory
When God created Adam and Eve, body and soul, they were apparently created free from death. The penalty for Adams rebellion was death, both spiritual and physical. If there is no resurrection of the dead body then redemption is incomplete and Satan has at least won a partial victory. That cannot be! The Sovereignty of God is called into question by those who deny the bodily resurrection, the HHP!
In John 5:28, 29 KJV Jesus Christ promises a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead:
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The Apostle Paul addresses the problem of heresy in his letter to Titus:
Titus 3:10, 11 KJV
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
LOGOS you have been admomished a number of times about your heretical denial of the Word of God, making God a liar!
LOGO
In verse 2 Jesus Christ tells His disciples.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Though Jesus Christ comments only on the destruction of the Temple His disciples ask Him two questions [Verse 3]:
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
1. When shall these things be. That is, when shall the temple be destroyed?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD fulfilled the prophesy of Jesus Christ and many believe the judgment of God on the Jewish nation. Jesus Christ in the chapter 24 addresses both questions of the disciples. Those who say that the destruction of the Temple was the literal return of Jesus Christ, that it fulfills all Scripture regarding that promised return and the subsequent general resurrection, make a “liar” out of God and are, therefore, heretics. The heretical hyper preterists [HHP] do not believe in the bodily resurrection. As for attempting to explain those parts of Chapter 24 that address each question I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of LOGO.
When did Scripture first teach about the resurrection of the body. Each person caonsists of a body and a soul. At death the soul/spirit of the believer returns to God who gave it:
Ecclesiastes1 2:7, KJV
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It must be admitted that the word “resurrection” does not appear in the Old Testament. It is my belief that one of the strongest statements in all of Scripture regarding the resurrection of the body is that made by the patriarch, Job:
Job 19:25-27, KJV
25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
There can be no doubt that God, through the patriarch Job, is teaching the physical resurrection of the body.
There is one other mention in the Old Testament of the bodily resurrection. That recorded by the prophet Daniel:
Daniel 12:2, KJV
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The New Testament is replete with promises of the bodily resurrection. One of the more enlightening for those who would deny the bodily resurrection is the exchange between Jesus Christ and the Sadducees, the 1st Century equivalent of the HHP..
Luke 20:27-38, KJV
[ 27. Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
28. Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man’s brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
29. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
30. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.
31. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.
32. Last of all the woman died also.
33* Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
34. And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
The Sadducees considered themselves to be the ELITE among the Jews, much as the HHP do today, thought they could humiliate this “man from Nazereth”, too arrogant to realize they were confronting the Incarnate God. The passage is self explanatory to those who submit to the Word of God, and Jesus Christ clearly shows that there is a resurrection of the dead. Perhaps most important is the final verse: For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living.
When considering the resurrection of the body ione realize that resurrection does not mean making those who are dead alive again. There are a number of cases in both the Old and new Testament where the dead are raised to life but they all died again. Jesus Christ is the only one who has ever undergone resurrection. The resurrection body is not just a physical body though it is a visible body. The Apostle Paul describes the resurrection as follows:
1 Corinthians 15:35-57, KJV
35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
So we are given to understand by God through the Apostle Paul that the body that is resurrected is different from the body that was buried. We are also told emphatically that through the resurrection of the body: Death is swallowed up in victory
When God created Adam and Eve, body and soul, they were apparently created free from death. The penalty for Adams rebellion was death, both spiritual and physical. If there is no resurrection of the dead body then redemption is incomplete and Satan has at least won a partial victory. That cannot be! The Sovereignty of God is called into question by those who deny the bodily resurrection, the HHP!
In John 5:28, 29 KJV Jesus Christ promises a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead:
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The Apostle Paul addresses the problem of heresy in his letter to Titus:
Titus 3:10, 11 KJV
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
LOGOS you have been admomished a number of times about your heretical denial of the Word of God, making God a liar!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is absolutely the most stupid statement I have read on this Forum. God through the Apostle Paul tells us:
Philippians 1:21-23, KJV
21. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Are you now saying that Jesus Christ is still in the Grave? But what can anyone expect from LOGO?
Disneyland times deux
This was hysterical on some levels and a real hoot on others oldregular. To take a simple conversation and churn and turn it into multiple levels of meaning, journeys through the space time continuum, and fanciful, creative wishing is the kind of biblical exegesis any comedian would envy. I hope you will be playing here all week. I want tickets every night.
Encoré
I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
This was hysterical on some levels and a real hoot on others oldregular. To take a simple conversation and churn and turn it into multiple levels of meaning, journeys through the space time continuum, and fanciful, creative wishing is the kind of biblical exegesis any comedian would envy. I hope you will be playing here all week. I want tickets every night.
Encoré
I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The trash talk you post LOGO is symptomatic of your heretical beliefs!
The Apostle Paul addresses the problem of heresy in his letter to Titus:
Titus 3:10, 11 KJV
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
LOGOS you have been admomished a number of times about your heretical denial of the Word of God, making God a liar!
One more time!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You deny the resurrection LOGO which I show is a clear teaching of Scripture. You are now denying the resurrection of Jesus Christ [posts #111 & #113]. That makes you and a heretic!
How do I know when I'm on the right track, hmmm
Oldregular being admonished for heresy by you is one of the most meaningful validations that I’m on the right track that I know of. And, it’s also quite spiritually refreshing. Thank you my good fellow!
I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Oldregular being admonished for heresy by you is one of the most meaningful validations that I’m on the right track that I know of. And, it’s also quite spiritually refreshing. Thank you my good fellow!
I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
I think I'm right in saying that to repeat meaningless phrases over and over again is one of the classic symptoms of insanity. :laugh:Logos 1 said:
Steve
Reply to Logos 1
For some little time I’ve been trying to get an answer to my question from Logos 1: How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the cities in Israel by AD 70?
My question arises from Logos 1’s Hyper-preterist interpretation of three verses of the N.T.
Matt 24:14. ‘And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.’
Col 1:23. ‘The Gospel which you heard, which was preached [or ‘proclaimed’] to every creature under heaven, of which I Paul, became a minister.’
Matt 10:23. ‘For assuredly I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities [Greek polis ] of Israel before the Son of Man comes.’
Logos1’s argument is that all three of these verses were fulfilled by AD 70. Therefore Matt 24:14 must be adjusted to mean that the Gospel must be preached in all the Roman world. Now there are some places in the N.T. where ‘world’ is used to mean the Roman world (eg. Luke 2:1). However the Gospel is to be preached in all the world ‘as a witness to all the nations.’ How did preaching the Gospel in 1st Century Italy or Greece possibly witness to all the nations like China or India? It didn’t. However, we let that pass for the moment and move on.
The next verse we come to is Col 1:23. Logos is not quite happy with the literal translation so he prefers the NLT paraphrase: “The good news has been preached all over the World.” Even this is a bit too literal for him; he needs to paraphrase still further. The good news, he says, has been preached all over the Roman world. No, even that is too much for him, It's been preached, he says, in 'The major cities of the Mediterranean area.'
But of course, the text doesn’t say that or anything like it. It says that the Gospel has been proclaimed ‘To every creature under heaven.’ Paul could easily have written ‘all over the world’ if the Holy Spirit had wanted him to. Why didn’t he? Because that is not what he meant.
Let us for a moment allow Logos his paraphrase. His problem is that we know that Colossians was written around 60-61 AD. Is it possible that the Gospel could have been preached all around the Roman world by that date? Absolutely not. We know from Romans 15:19-28 that the Gospel had not reached Spain by around AD 57. Paul had no opportunity to go there before his imprisonment and his writing of Colossians. Around AD 64, Titus is only just getting things organized in Crete (Titus 1:5). There is no mention anywhere in the NT of the Gospel reaching Gaul (France, Belgium, Holland and a bit of Germany up to the Rhine), Britain or Egypt, Carthage or anywhere in Africa before AD 70, let alone AD 61. Let Americans have a look at a map of Europe and North Africa and see how huge it is. It is simply not credible that the Gospel could even have reached every major city, let alone preached to ‘every creature’ by the time of the writing of Colossians. So what does Paul mean? patience! All will be revealed.
Next we come to Matt 10:23. Here the very opposite situation applies. Look at a map of Israel. It’s tiny! It is only about 70 miles from Nazareth to Jerusalem. Our Lord regularly walked the length and breadth of the country during the 3 years or so of His ministry. There is no way in the world that it would take 12 Apostles forty years to get around all the cities of Israel. Five years is the absolute maximum time. That is why I suggested earlier that perhaps our Lord secretly returned in AD 35, and it is why I asked my question of Logos: How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the cities in Israel by AD 70?
This is his reply to me.
This is how to be a Hyper-preterist. You take the exact opposite of what is said, and make that your argument. Did Paul say that the Gospel had been proclaimed ‘To every creature under heaven’? Well that must mean ‘The major cities of the Mediterranean.’ Did our Lord say, ‘The cities of Israel’? Well, He must have meant ‘every little town and backwater.’ Actually, no! He didn’t mean that. The Greek word for ‘city’ is polis. Its precise meaning is a town or city that is walled. Only the larger cities had a wall around them. The word for a town or village without a wall is kome. In Matt 10:11, the Lord Jesus puts the two together and distinguishes them: ‘Now, whatever city [Gk. polis] or town [Gk. kome] you enter….’ The two words also appear together in Matt 9:35; Luke 8:1, and 13:22. So in Matt 10:23, our Lord is saying, “You will not have gone through even the larger, walled towns of Israel before I return.” If He had wanted to mention the villages and ‘backwaters’ He could easily have done so. I repeat; there is no way in the world that it would have taken the disciples forty years (AD 30-70) to ‘go through’ the larger cities of Israel. So am I really suggesting that Christ returned around AD 35? Of course not! There is a much easier and simpler explanation.
Watch this space!
Steve
For some little time I’ve been trying to get an answer to my question from Logos 1: How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the cities in Israel by AD 70?
My question arises from Logos 1’s Hyper-preterist interpretation of three verses of the N.T.
Matt 24:14. ‘And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.’
Col 1:23. ‘The Gospel which you heard, which was preached [or ‘proclaimed’] to every creature under heaven, of which I Paul, became a minister.’
Matt 10:23. ‘For assuredly I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities [Greek polis ] of Israel before the Son of Man comes.’
Logos1’s argument is that all three of these verses were fulfilled by AD 70. Therefore Matt 24:14 must be adjusted to mean that the Gospel must be preached in all the Roman world. Now there are some places in the N.T. where ‘world’ is used to mean the Roman world (eg. Luke 2:1). However the Gospel is to be preached in all the world ‘as a witness to all the nations.’ How did preaching the Gospel in 1st Century Italy or Greece possibly witness to all the nations like China or India? It didn’t. However, we let that pass for the moment and move on.
The next verse we come to is Col 1:23. Logos is not quite happy with the literal translation so he prefers the NLT paraphrase: “The good news has been preached all over the World.” Even this is a bit too literal for him; he needs to paraphrase still further. The good news, he says, has been preached all over the Roman world. No, even that is too much for him, It's been preached, he says, in 'The major cities of the Mediterranean area.'
But of course, the text doesn’t say that or anything like it. It says that the Gospel has been proclaimed ‘To every creature under heaven.’ Paul could easily have written ‘all over the world’ if the Holy Spirit had wanted him to. Why didn’t he? Because that is not what he meant.
Let us for a moment allow Logos his paraphrase. His problem is that we know that Colossians was written around 60-61 AD. Is it possible that the Gospel could have been preached all around the Roman world by that date? Absolutely not. We know from Romans 15:19-28 that the Gospel had not reached Spain by around AD 57. Paul had no opportunity to go there before his imprisonment and his writing of Colossians. Around AD 64, Titus is only just getting things organized in Crete (Titus 1:5). There is no mention anywhere in the NT of the Gospel reaching Gaul (France, Belgium, Holland and a bit of Germany up to the Rhine), Britain or Egypt, Carthage or anywhere in Africa before AD 70, let alone AD 61. Let Americans have a look at a map of Europe and North Africa and see how huge it is. It is simply not credible that the Gospel could even have reached every major city, let alone preached to ‘every creature’ by the time of the writing of Colossians. So what does Paul mean? patience! All will be revealed.
Next we come to Matt 10:23. Here the very opposite situation applies. Look at a map of Israel. It’s tiny! It is only about 70 miles from Nazareth to Jerusalem. Our Lord regularly walked the length and breadth of the country during the 3 years or so of His ministry. There is no way in the world that it would take 12 Apostles forty years to get around all the cities of Israel. Five years is the absolute maximum time. That is why I suggested earlier that perhaps our Lord secretly returned in AD 35, and it is why I asked my question of Logos: How come the Gospel had been (according to you) preached in all the Roman world ('proclaimed to every creature under heaven') by around AD 60-61, yet the Apostles hadn't finished going through all the cities in Israel by AD 70?
This is his reply to me.
This is how to be a Hyper-preterist. You take the exact opposite of what is said, and make that your argument. Did Paul say that the Gospel had been proclaimed ‘To every creature under heaven’? Well that must mean ‘The major cities of the Mediterranean.’ Did our Lord say, ‘The cities of Israel’? Well, He must have meant ‘every little town and backwater.’ Actually, no! He didn’t mean that. The Greek word for ‘city’ is polis. Its precise meaning is a town or city that is walled. Only the larger cities had a wall around them. The word for a town or village without a wall is kome. In Matt 10:11, the Lord Jesus puts the two together and distinguishes them: ‘Now, whatever city [Gk. polis] or town [Gk. kome] you enter….’ The two words also appear together in Matt 9:35; Luke 8:1, and 13:22. So in Matt 10:23, our Lord is saying, “You will not have gone through even the larger, walled towns of Israel before I return.” If He had wanted to mention the villages and ‘backwaters’ He could easily have done so. I repeat; there is no way in the world that it would have taken the disciples forty years (AD 30-70) to ‘go through’ the larger cities of Israel. So am I really suggesting that Christ returned around AD 35? Of course not! There is a much easier and simpler explanation.
Watch this space!
Steve
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Steve
Has Logos answered a single question posed to him?
Has Logos answered a single question posed to him?