The New Perspective on Paul

[37818]

<snip>

. . . This changes things a bit. The idea is that we are justified by faith rather than works of the Law, but that this faith produces works in the present which points to a future justification. . . .

<snip>

Romans 4:2-5, ". . . For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him tt justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."
The issue has always been works versus grace through faith apart from the works which must follow. Romans 11:6. The Law given to Moses was 430 years after, Galatians 3:16-18. And justification from works is preceded by faith without it's works, Ephesians 2:8-10, James 2:21-23, Genesis 15:6, and the works for justification were years later, Genesis 22:12. Long after justification without said works.

NPP is myth.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Let us start with the Old Perspective on Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, and nothing else contributes to being chosen for salvation. Thus the OPP is Sola Fide (Faith Alone).

Paul does not say anywhere that we are "Justified by faith ALONE", nor does any other part of the 66 Books of the Bible! Jesus Himself says very clearly, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), which means, No REPENTANCE= NO SALVATION

 

[SavedByGrace]

Romans 4:2-5, ". . . For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him tt justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."
The issue has always been works versus grace through faith apart from the works which must follow. Romans 11:6. The Law given to Moses was 430 years after, Galatians 3:16-18. And justification from works is preceded by faith without it's works, Ephesians 2:8-10, James 2:21-23, Genesis 15:6, and the works for justification were years later, Genesis 22:12. Long after justification without said works.

NPP is myth.

Are you saying that a sinner needs "good works" as part of their being saved?

"But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:6)

 

[37818]

Are you saying that a sinner needs "good works" as part of their being saved?

No. One needs to be saved in order for good works to count for anything. If one's name is blotted out of the book, no amount of good works will help, Revelation 20:15. Your question is as if you either didn't actually read what I wrote, or you are unable to understand what I had argued.

Romans 11:6.

"But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:6)

 

[kyredneck]

One needs to be saved in order for good works to count for anything.

Cornelius, before he heard the gospel and was 'saved':

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

Nathanael, before he was 'saved':

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1

God has wrought within BEFORE ever getting 'saved':

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3

Faith is NOT the source of our works. The Spirit is the source of our works AND our faith.

 

[37818]

Cornelius, before he heard the gospel and was 'saved':

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

Nathanael, before he was 'saved':

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1

God has wrought within BEFORE ever getting 'saved':

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3

Faith is NOT the source of our works. The Spirit is the source of our works AND our faith.

Does this mean Romans 3:23 is not really true?
Revelation 20:15, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8.

 

[37818]

@kyredneck,
". . . Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. . . ." Which is only by receiving the gift. Romans 11:6. Acts 10:43-44.

 

[kyredneck]

Does this mean Romans 3:23 is not really true?

No. It means John 3:8 is true.

 

[kyredneck]

Which is only by receiving the gift.

No. Which is only by being born of the Spirit.

 

[Van]

Paul does not say anywhere that we are "Justified by faith ALONE", nor does any other part of the 66 Books of the Bible! Jesus Himself says very clearly, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), which means, No REPENTANCE= NO SALVATION

Live faith demonstrates repentance and commitment to actually follow our Lord.

 

[Van]

Are we justified by Christ's faithfulness or our credited faith in Christ?

Apparently no one is able or willing to answer this rather simple Christianity 101 question. The answer is we were justified by Christ's faithfulness, in living a sinless life and laying down His life as a ransom for humanity. So we were not justified by our credited faith, as that would mean salvation depended on us. But scripture says if God credits our faith, as He did Abraham's faith, He bestows His grace upon those credited. Thus we access God's grace through or by way of faith. Romans 5:1-2.

Thus the NPP is the same as the old, Paul rejected works based justification, saying no flesh is justified by works, but did teach we obtain access to God's grace through or by way of God crediting our faith as righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 (NET)
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.​

 

[37818]

New Are we justified by Christ's faithfulness or our credited faith in Christ?

Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted . . . ."

 

[JonC]

Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted . . . ."

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

I believe this is an excellent example. Here it is obvious that Paul was not referring to "works of the Law" with his use of "works" (as the example is prior to the giving of the he Law).

 

[JesusFan]

I am opening this thread because a member, @JesusFan , seems fascinated with the NPP but at the same time confuses the "classic view" of Atonement with the NPP.

I figure others here more knowledgeable than I may be able to help him. I know some of the NPP, but the topic has not really sparked my interest as it seems problematic at the start.

The New Perspective on Paul (NPP) is a movement (with many different views) focused on the writings on Paul. The NPP is primarily associated with E.P. Sanders and James Dunn (Krister Stendahl in the 1960's, prior to Sanders).

The primary idea is that the Reformers read their situation with the Catholic Church into Paul's use of works - that Paul's use of "works" primarily referred to works of the Law rather than general Christian works or good behavior.

This changes things a bit. The idea is that we are justified by faith rather than works of the Law, but that this faith produces works in the present which points to a future justification.

Personally I think the NPP gets somewhat too much in the weeds and does not come out very coherently. I agree that Paul often used "works" to mean "works of the Law", but at the same time this seems (IMHO) to assume a Jewish audience. I think the simple truth is we do not earn salvation, but that good works accompany salvation.

So good works can be a s's!ign of a future justification (at the day of Judgment) but they are fruits of a present justification (salvation, justified in Christ).

The NPP, and especially NT Wright, totally rejected Pauline Justification as defined by the reformers and those holding to Psa, as its in the bottom line an attack upon psa, and seeking to get rid of the wrath of God, propitiation bu the blood of Christ, and is a bridge to have Rome and us able to agree upon a common salvation framework. much as the Lutherans and Catholics did back in 1990's!

 

[JesusFan]

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

I believe this is an excellent example. Here it is obvious that Paul was not referring to "works of the Law" with his use of "works" (as the example is prior to the giving of the he Law).

Paul pointed out that none can do any thing to merit the salvation of God period, as must trust upon Lord Jesus and his finished work upon that Cross period!

 

[JonC]

The NPP, and especially NT Wright, totally rejected Pauline Justification as defined by the reformers and those holding to Psa, as its in the bottom line an attack upon psa, and seeking to get rid of the wrath of God, propitiation bu the blood of Christ, and is a bridge to have Rome and us able to agree upon a common salvation framework. much as the Lutherans and Catholics did back in 1990's!

The only problem with that is NT Wright does not reject Penal Substitution Theory.

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a development of the Reformation. The Reformers, Specifically Calvin and Luther, took Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and modified it slightly. They added a more legal (or forensic) framework into this notion of the cross as satisfaction. The result is that within Penal Substitution, Jesus Christ dies to satisfy God’s wrath against human sin. Jesus is punished (penal) in the place of sinners (substitution) in order to satisfy the justice of God and the legal demand of God to punish sin. In the light of Jesus’ death, God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus Christ has been punished in the place of the sinner, in this way meeting the retributive requirements of God’s justice. This legal balancing of the ledgers is at the heart of this theory, which claims that Jesus died for legal satisfaction. It’s also worth mentioning that in this theory the notion of imputed righteousness is postulated.

 

[Alan Gross]

Paul does not say anywhere that we are "Justified by faith ALONE", nor does any other part of the 66 Books of the Bible! Jesus Himself says very clearly, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), which means, No REPENTANCE= NO SALVATION

Repentance and Faith are 'Twin Doctrines', and are both GIVEN to the sinner who has been brought by the Schoolmaster, i.e., The Law/ The Word of God, to be Spiritually CONVICTED of their Hopeless, Sinful State of Nature before God Almighty, Who is Sinless AND Separate from sinners.

When Repentance and Faith, as 'Twin Doctrines, are GIVEN to the sinner who has been brought by the Schoolmaster, i.e., The Law/ The Word of God, to be Spiritually CONVICTED of their Hopeless, Sinful State of Nature before God Almighty, IT IS "THE NEW BIRTH"/ Regeneration by The Holy Spirit, from Spiritual death and impotent inability to span the Eternal Gap, between lost man and God, to be Sealed, Kept by The Power of God, Adopted into The Family of God, as a SAVED SOUL, GIVEN The Earnest of The Spirit, to become a Partaker of The Divine Nature, whom Jesus Ever Liveths to Make Intersession.

 

[Aaron]

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

I believe this is an excellent example. Here it is obvious that Paul was not referring to "works of the Law" with his use of "works" (as the example is prior to the giving of the he Law).

I will ask again...

If love is the fulfillment of the law, is there a 'general Christian work', or 'general good behavior', that is not a fulfillment of a Commandment?

 

[JonC]

I will ask again...

If love is the fulfillment of the law, is there a 'general Christian work', or 'general good behavior', that is not a fulfillment of a Commandment?

No. The command is love.

 

[Van]

Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted . . . ."

This verse does NOT say or suggest the person was justified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!