The New Perspective on Paul

[37818]

This verse does NOT say or suggest the person was justified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what do you think it means to "believeth on him that justifieth?". Vain belief?

 

[Van]

So what do you think it means to "believeth on him that justifieth?". Vain belief?

The issue is what is accomplished by our belief in Christ. Are we justified by our belief? Or did the One who justifies actually cause the justification? So our faith provides our access to God's grace, but God's grace justifies the unjust.

 

[37818]

The issue is what is accomplished by our belief in Christ. Are we justified by our belief? Or did the One who justifies actually cause the justification?

Romans 4:5, ". . . on him that justifieth . . . ." It is the one who justifies who actually justifies. It is explicitly what the text says.

 

[Van]

Romans 4:5, ". . . on him that justifieth . . . ." It is the one who justifies who actually justifies. It is explicitly what the text says.

So what you did not say, or left unsaid, is that our belief does not justify, but only provides our access to God's grace. If that is what you believe, you are on the right track.

 

[37818]

So what you did not say, or left unsaid, is that our belief does not justify, but only provides our access to God's grace. If that is what you believe, you are on the right track.

While our faith is required by God it doesn't cause anything. Hebrews 11:6.

 

[Van]

While our faith is required by God it doesn't cause anything. Hebrews 11:6.

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.

Thus our faith provides our access to God's grace. This should not be disputed. Our faith provides, causes, our access to God's grace. If you deny this, you are on the wrong track.

 

[37818]

. . . Our faith provides, causes, . . .

So you, like some Calvinists, claim faith is a work. Wow.

 

[Van]

So you, like some Calvinists, claim faith is a work. Wow.

You claim that faith does not provide or causes our access to God's grace denies scripture WOW.

Some people deny Romans 5:1-2:
Rom 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God's glory.

 

[37818]

You claim that faith does not provide or causes our access to God's grace denies scripture WOW.

We disagree. A work causes something. Faith is not regarded as a work per Romans 4:5, ". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth . . . ."

 

[Van]

We disagree. A work causes something. Faith is not regarded as a work per Romans 4:5, ". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth . . . ."

Faith is according to grace. Romans 4:16. Romans 5:1-2 clearly teaches our faith provides our access to God's grace. Stop your denial of the obvious.

 

[37818]

Faith is according to grace. Romans 4:16. Romans 5:1-2 clearly teaches our faith provides our access to God's grace. Stop your denial of the obvious.

God does the work of grace, not the faith, which is the required reason God saves. Faith does not cause anything to be true. But truth is the reason for faith. John 17:17, Romans 10:17.

 

[Aaron]

No. The command is love.

Agreed. The Commandment is exceeding broad, Psalms 119:96. There is no good that can be done that is not in obedience to the Commandments, and there is no sin, not even the sins of the heart, that is not revealed by the Law. Anger without cause is murder, sexual lust is adultery, covetousness is idolatry, adultery, murder, and theft.

 

[Aaron]

So good works can be a sign of a future justification (at the day of Judgment) but they are fruits of a present justification (salvation, justified in Christ).

What's the difference between being justified by faith, and the 'future' justification? It sounds like you are saying there are two justifications.

We are justified. We are at peace with God. Our justification will be made manifest in the Final Judgment.

 

[canadyjd]

The issue is what is accomplished by our belief in Christ. Are we justified by our belief? Or did the One who justifies actually cause the justification? So our faith provides our access to God's grace, but God's grace justifies the unjust.

And:

Faith is according to grace. Romans 4:16. Romans 5:1-2 clearly teaches our faith provides our access to God's grace. Stop your denial of the obvious.

God’s “grace” (unmerited favor) is often defined in two ways by Paul.

First is the grace which leads to salvation. That is God’s unmerited favor in His choice to bring someone to salvation.

Second is “enabling grace”, which is God’s inner provision, by Holy Spirit, that allows believers to stand firm in the midst of persecution. Paul refers to enabling grace more often than the grace which brings salvation.

Your reference to Romans 5:1-2 and the “…access by faith into this grace in which we stand” is a reference to enabling grace given to the believer after salvation.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

What's the difference between being justified by faith, and the 'future' justification? It sounds like you are saying there are two justifications.

We are justified. We are at peace with God. Our justification will be made manifest in the Final Judgment.

Me? No. I do not believe the NPP correct.

But the idea is that we are "justified" in the present by the fruits we bear (if of the Spirit) and these fruits point to a final state of justification. I take it Sanders refers to indications that we are saved. But I have not studied the NPP more than a casual reading (and mostly from John Piper's objections to it).

I figure if NT Wright had to write a book to explain Paul's use of justification and this book is larger than the entire Bible...well...something's wrong.

 

[Van]

God does the work of grace, not the faith, which is the required reason God saves. Faith does not cause anything to be true. But truth is the reason for faith. John 17:17, Romans 10:17.

Why not address the subject? Why change the subject? Faith provides our access to God's grace. Full Stop

 

[Van]

And:

God’s “grace” (unmerited favor) is often defined in two ways by Paul.

First is the grace which leads to salvation. That is God’s unmerited favor in His choice to bring someone to salvation.

Second is “enabling grace”, which is God’s inner provision, by Holy Spirit, that allows believers to stand firm in the midst of persecution. Paul refers to enabling grace more often than the grace which brings salvation.

Your reference to Romans 5:1-2 and the “…access by faith into this grace in which we stand” is a reference to enabling grace given to the believer after salvation.

peace to you

Your assertions have no biblical basis. John 3:16 Everyone believing refers to pre-salvation faith providing access to salvation.

 

[canadyjd]

Your assertions have no biblical basis. John 3:16 Everyone believing refers to pre-salvation faith providing access to salvation.

When Paul ask God to remove his “thorn in the flesh” God told him “My grace is sufficient for you”. Was God speaking of Paul getting saved? Or was God telling him His grace, through power of indwelling Holy Spirit was sufficient to enable him to endure?

Paul often speaks of enabling grace given to believers… the grace in which we stand.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Why not address the subject? Why change the subject? Faith provides our access to God's grace. Full Stop

The subiect was not changed. We disagree on faith not being a work. We do agree faith is necessary.

 

[Aaron]

Me? No. I do not believe the NPP correct.

But the idea is that we are "justified" in the present by the fruits we bear (if of the Spirit) and these fruits point to a final state of justification. I take it Sanders refers to indications that we are saved. But I have not studied the NPP more than a casual reading (and mostly from John Piper's objections to it).

I figure if NT Wright had to write a book to explain Paul's use of justification and this book is larger than the entire Bible...well...something's wrong.

Oh, I see. Justified in the sense of proven vs Justified in the sense of being made just.

Okay I understand now. And am dismayed I have no objection thus far.