The NKJV and it's pagan symbol

[tinytim]

I was asked the following question in another forum and since that forum wasn't a debate forum I'd like to answer it here:

originally by Articbound:
"By the way TINYTIM,
What do you think about the New king james with it's pagan symbol...IS IT STILL HOGWASH?"

A symbol has no meaning until a meaning is applied. If I applied a pagan meaning to it, it would be wrong. But I view it as representing The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. There are many symbols that have came to Christianity from pagans. Christmas is full of them. How many of us have a Christmas Tree? What about candles in the church? What about the symbol of the cross? How many have something in your church that have the letters IHS on them.

Our Church participates in a "Hanging of the Greens ceremony at Christmas." We also have a Chrismon tree (short for Christ monograms)instead of a Christmas tree. On the Tree are Symbols that have been in Christianity since it began up until present. During the service it is stated that "As Christians from other cultures were converted so were the ways and symbols that they used converted to worship God." Or something like that. Among the symbols are the Cross, a lamb, The fish symbol, and the trinity symbol. The star is a major symbol at Christmas time representing the star the wisemen followed. That same five pointed star is also found in satanism. Should we throw the star out? No. It has meaning to the Christian. Satan is a great couterfeiter. He understands the trinity better than us. That's why he tried to duplicate it. Using that symbol is like taking from satan and making it sacred. If it is sin for you, don't use it. But don't condemn me for when I see the symbol I automatically think of the trinity. What can be wrong that directs our thoughts toward God?

 

[Scott J]

I wouldn't worry much about the KJVO responses to this thread Tim. You will hear all about how it is pagan or satanist which of course means that the Bible translation underneath the cover is somehow bad.

The short answer is that this is the kind of charge that gets brought up when an opponent's head is empty valid proofs and whose heart is as hard as a rock to the truth.

The NKJV is a good, honest translation of the Bible and a blessing to real Bible believers.

 

[Ransom]

tinytim said:

But I view it as representing The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.

And you would be exactly right.

The triquetra is a Celtic knot, a bit of abstract ornamentation used by the ancient Celts. When Christianity came to the British Isles, probably one of the missionaries saw it and used it as an object lesson to explain what God is like.

The medievals saw deep meaning in everything. Read some old Anglo-Saxon poetry and you'll see what I mean.

The triquetra consists of three arcs, representing Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The arcs are identical; the three persons of the Trinity are co-equal. The arcs compose a closed loop, symbolic of God's eternity. The arcs are interlocked, signifying that though he exists in three persons, God is one being.

Yes, this symbol is sometimes used by neo-pagans. However, in my research on this subject I came across at least one neo-pagan Web site that admitted that just maybe the pagans had co-opted the symbol from early Celtic Christianity. (In other words, to paraphrase Bono: this is a symbol the pagans stole from the Celtic Christians; the NKJV is stealin' it back!)

 

[Spirit and Truth]

Ransom stated:

(In other words, to paraphrase Bono: this is a symbol the pagans stole from the Celtic Christians; the NKJV is stealin' it back!)

S&T:

I must admit that I am not very familiar with the NKJV translation, so I can not comment on the translation. My take is however, why would anyone put a symbol on the front cover that has a questionable origin [having the appearence of possible evil intent] on this new tranlation. Also, since Bono LOVES the message, and is the poster boy for the ecumenical movement, I do not think that I would use him in any capacity to validate this.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Spirit and Truth: "My take is however, why would anyone put a symbol on the front cover that has a questionable origin [having the appearence of possible evil intent] on this new tranlation."

It wasn't questionable when they selected.
And if you happen to have a REAL King James
Version, 1611 edition (Most KJVOs use
the 1769 edition of the KJV) you will find
in it a sun with a face. Oh, personifying
the sun sounds pretty pagan to me.

BTW after the New King James Version (nKJV)
came out in 1985 it took about 12 years
for the KJVOs to figure out that
that symbol was bad

I guess they gave
up on the contents.

See, i've been an adult Christian adult human
since 1964 and i've seen the whole history
of the KJVO movement. The nKJV was built
by KJVO specifications. Pretty ironic
that they condemn it mostly by the
symbol on front???

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
And if you happen to have a REAL King James
Version, 1611 edition (Most KJVOs use
the 1769 edition of the KJV) you will find
in it a sun with a face. Oh, personifying
the sun sounds pretty pagan to me.

Heh, good point.

BTW after the New King James Version (nKJV)
came out in 1985 it took about 12 years
for the KJVOs to figure out that
that symbol was bad

I guess they gave
up on the contents.

1Peter 3:3 did it for me. If they're willing to insert words into the text that completely change the meaning, they're pretty much capable of anything.

See, i've been an adult Christian adult human
since 1964 and i've seen the whole history
of the KJVO movement. The nKJV was built
by KJVO specifications.

I think most KJVO would not support the doubt inducing footnotes and the "improvements" to translation (archaic word updates excepted). I also think they should have kept the thee's and thou's.

 

[ArcticBound]

I am really upset with this board. What we "far right" have been accused of: being hot tempered, is what you far left have been doing!

I was called a "blatant liar" by some ungodly person who didn't even take the time to do a little checking up on what I said. Then came along another ungodly person who is suppose to be teaching teens and says what I'm saying is HOGWASH.
No one likes to be called a liar. If I would say that about anyone on this Board, I would be attacked immediately! That is attacking someone's character!

This highly offended me, so I simply typed "Triquetra" in my search engine and I found many pages on WICCA. I went through them and found this quote:

"The triquetra is a triangular Celtic knot design which symbolizes all trinities"

"Pagan/Wiccan/Goddess Symbolism:
The Triquetra represents the threefold nature of the Goddess as virgin, mother and crone.
It symbolizes life, death, and rebirth and the three forces of nature: earth, air, and water. The inner three circles represent the female element and fertility."

"The Triquetra is on the cover on the "Book of Shadows," a powerful spell book, and on the Spiritboard, the prop department's idea of what a talking board looks like. The Halliwells might be surprised to learn that the Triquetra also appears on the Christian Bible, New King James Version, in real life. It may come as no surprise too, that there are some angry Christians out there who feel that the witches have stolen their symbol. Real life Wiccans claim that they had it first. Makes for an interesting situation, to say the least."
"The pagans have a few points in their favor, however. We can speculate knowing what we do of similar signs. The early Christians freely "appropriated" many pagan symbols, rituals, and holidays and took them as their own. The Mandorla (left), the Christians' sacred almond, was originally a pagan feminine symbol signifying fertility. The Christians changed it to one representing virginity and purity. It is pictured in early Christian art as the almond-shaped halo of Christ. So it's quite probable that the early Christians adopted the Triquetra, an interlocking triple Mandorla, also. In the final analysis, maybe the origin isn't nearly as important as its meaning to the group, or the individual. So whether you're pagan, Christian, or simply a fan of the television show "Charmed," you may believe what you want to believe . So can we"

LOOK at those words I put in BOLD...This is what some unsaved man says, "YOU MAY BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE."
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN HEARING ON THIS BOARD..."BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO, WE HAVE NO ABSOLUTES" IT DOESN'T MATTER IF WICCA DOES IT, YOU CAN DO IT TOO ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

It seems to me that the only Absolutes are the ones set by the Liberals.

I made an honest statement about the new king james version. A Christian doesn't adopt the things of the world, no matter how inviting they may be. A pagan symbol is a pagan symbol, I don't care who uses it.

I think some people owe me an apology.

I backed up my words!

 

[Anti-Alexandrian]

The NKJV is a good, honest translation of the Bible and a blessing to real Bible believers.

Uh,yeah... This LINK will show otherwise..

 

[ArcticBound]

Originally posted by Anti-Alexandrian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The NKJV is a good, honest translation of the Bible and a blessing to real Bible believers.

Uh,yeah... This LINK will show otherwise.. </font>[/QUOTE]THANK YOU! AMEN!

 

[Spirit and Truth]

Ed,

Since I have been on this forum, I have been accused at least five times of being a KJVO person, which I keep stating that I am not, but nobody seems to hear me. Once again, for the record, I am not a KJVO person. I do not own multiple copies and versions of the KJV for comparison. I own a copy along with a host of other bibles, as it is a good translation. I made the statement about the symbol, because many times when I have driven by Catholic churches, I see this symbol out front. A comedian once said "Symbols are for the symbol minded".
I tend to agree with this statement. If there is a symbol that appears to be evil, why plaster it on the cover of a new translation? Below is a link to an interesting series of articles that I read. You may not agree with all of the writers points, but there is some interesting footnoted facts there.

http://www.SeekGod.ca/warning.htm

It is part of a series from this page:

http://www.SeekGod.ca/topicsymbols.htm#inroads

I ran across this site about a year ago, and have been slowly reading all of the articles [about 500?] that are on this site. It deals a lot with the ecumenical movement and it's inroads in the mainstream churches.

 

[Spirit and Truth]

AB posted an article that stated:

"The Triquetra is on the cover on the "Book of Shadows," a powerful spell book

S&T:

They failed to mention that it is the companion book for THE SATANIC BIBLE..... what was that scripture about people perishing for lack of knowledge? Let's all just sing as we waltz down the path of one world religion to usher in the anti-christ ...c'mon......
everybody now! Can't we all just COMPROMISE , become LUKE WARM, and get along?

 

[BrianT]

I am amazed at how often we deal with this subject on this forum.

Symbols, like words, have *context*. Ripping a symbol out of context is like ripping a word out of context.

The original 1611 KJV had on the title page of the Bible, and the title page of the NT, the "sun image of Baal". Whoopdee-do.

I have a KJV with a big, gold, embossed "All Seeing Eye of Horus" on the front cover. Whoopdee-do.

Find something else to crank about.

 

[ArcticBound]

Originally posted by BrianT:
I am amazed at how often we deal with this subject on this forum.

Symbols, like words, have *context*. Ripping a symbol out of context is like ripping a word out of context.

The original 1611 KJV had on the title page of the Bible, and the title page of the NT, the "sun image of Baal". Whoopdee-do.

I have a KJV with a big, gold, embossed "All Seeing Eye of Horus" on the front cover. Whoopdee-do.

Find something else to crank about.

I have six to ten KING JAMES BIBLES that I have been given or bought over the years and NOT ONE has a PAGAN SYMBOL ON IT!
If what you say is true about the original KJB, (which I'm not sure of, but I will not call you a "blatant liar", until I check it out)SOMEONE HAD THE SENSE TO TAKE THE PAGAN SYMBOL OFF!

 

[BrianT]

ArcticBound, you missed my main points: "context" and "whoopdee-do".

 

[robycop3]

Originally posted by Anti-Alexandrian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The NKJV is a good, honest translation of the Bible and a blessing to real Bible believers.

Uh,yeah... This LINK will show otherwise.. </font>[/QUOTE]A lilk featuring the "work" of TERRY WATKINS??? Yeah, right!

That gent has published more misinformation than The Hippie Dippie Weather Man! He still pushes those ond Onlyist arguments that were shot down 40 years ago. And you rely on HIM for info?

The swastika is now the worldwide symbol for the most evil govt. the world has ever seen, but before that, it was a symbol for many GOOD things.We cannot put too much meaning into ancient signs and logos.

Tha REAL prob the KJVOs have with the NKJV is that "it aint the KJV".

 

[Anti-Alexandrian]

If it walks like a duck,and quacks like a duck,it must be a duck!!!

 

[ArcticBound]

Originally posted by robycop3:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Anti-Alexandrian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The NKJV is a good, honest translation of the Bible and a blessing to real Bible believers.

Uh,yeah... This LINK will show otherwise.. </font>[/QUOTE]A lilk featuring the "work" of TERRY WATKINS??? Yeah, right!

That gent has published more misinformation than The Hippie Dippie Weather Man! He still pushes those ond Onlyist arguments that were shot down 40 years ago. And you rely on HIM for info?

The swastika is now the worldwide symbol for the most evil govt. the world has ever seen, but before that, it was a symbol for many GOOD things.We cannot put too much meaning into ancient signs and logos.

Tha REAL prob the KJVOs have with the NKJV is that "it aint the KJV". </font>[/QUOTE]Robycop3, we could say the same thing about all your arguments. Obviously, I don't read the same people you read because they are liberals. Try to look away from the person, and LOOK AT THE FACTS.

I wrote a POST with a quote from some unsaved man....What did you think of that post? (you can't listen to what he says because he is unsaved?) Once again the only absolutes are what you consider them to be! Open you Eyes!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Anti-Alexandrian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The NKJV is a good, honest translation of the Bible and a blessing to real Bible believers.

Uh,yeah... This LINK will show otherwise.. </font>[/QUOTE]I looked at the link and found no valid criticism of the translation. It dealt with a symbol. Like Brian said, symbols have context. Pagans use crosses and blood symbolically. Does that mean that all burgundy KJV Bibles with crosses on them have suddenly become bad?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
I think most KJVO would not support the doubt inducing footnotes and the "improvements" to translation (archaic word updates excepted). I also think they should have kept the thee's and thou's.

Why? The AV 1611 had them and the KJV translators wrote a very good defense of their inclusion.

 

[Walls]

I know that God wouldn't want His holy word corrupted by a pagan symbol, 1611 KJV or otherwise. What Bible was in use before the King James? Was it the Geneva? Does it have any pagan symbols? Who is responsible for these symbols being put on the supposed word of God?