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The NT does not teach Christ to return soon.

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John of Japan

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2013:

2022:

We all change when we learn new things, but am I understanding you correctly that you now think that the Jews are an evil, crooked, and adulterous race?
My point was that the Greek word need not be translated as "generation." I'll stick to that. (See Post #118.) Now, why are you trying to put the words of Jesus into my mouth? (But they were the race who crucified Jesus. That's pretty evil.) To this day in history they reject Christ as a people group. (Ever tried to win a Jew to Christ?) But of course there are marvelous examples of individual saved Jews, such as the great Jewish evangelists Jacob Gartenhaus and Hyman Appelman, and the concert pianist Sam Rotman we recently had here for a concert and to teach us the Seder.
 

robycop3

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There were not complete Bibles. But complete Bibles were not needed. The Word of God is not limited. Were you saved by reading the whole Bible? I wasn't. Just a few verses were all that was needed.

And there were mentions in history, but they were not what you expect, I suppose. The Christians all being gone right after the rapture, the ones who wrote of the event did not have the whole picture.
The rapture hasn't happened yet, nor any of the other eschatological events.
 

robycop3

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Last time I suggested this, Tom was irate, but I have to say it. If Christ came the second time already in AD 70, and there is no longer a Second Coming of Christ, the future stretches out interminably, hopelessly, without the extreme wickedness of this old world being corrected by having Christ coming and fixing it all. And that statement applies whether one is preil, postmil, or amil, as long as one believes Christ is still coming back someday.

Full preterism is unscriptural, but is also a hopeless, sad doctrine. (Using the Greek successfully opposes it, though--Tom has told me more than once that I depend on the Greek too much--ignoring the fact that the NT came to us in Greek.)
Partial preterism is just-as-false. Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. So, if the trib has already occurred, Jesus is 'WAY overdue!
 

robycop3

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The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek | Page 2 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

"That particular generation of Christ's day was a peculiar generation in that it had been foretold of through prophecy such as the Song of Moses [Dt 31:16 - Dt 32], which also is quoted from several times in the NT. Only minutes earlier in the temple had Christ prophesied again concerning that particular generation:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

Christ is still referring to that particular generation in the Olivet Discourse.

The 'preunderstanding of the Modern Linguistics school' that you are again demonstrating complicates and disconnects, and in this instance destroys the underlying continuity of the scriptures concerning that very wicked generation. They're called serpents and offspring of vipers by Christ and John the Baptist and specifically singled out by Moses some 1400 years earlier where he plainly states “they are not His children”:

21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

8 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

And Josephus certainly had nothing good to say of 'that generation':

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2"
John of Japan dealt with your 'generation' stuff, but I'm adding that Josephus wrote to keep Vespasian, and later, Titus, happy & thus keeo his head attached. Remember, he was a rebel leader captured by Vespasian, & he had to bargain for his life. Thus, he wrote to please the Romans.
 

robycop3

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My point was that the Greek word need not be translated as "generation." I'll stick to that. (See Post #118.) Now, why are you trying to put the words of Jesus into my mouth? (But they were the race who crucified Jesus. That's pretty evil.) To this day in history they reject Christ as a people group. (Ever tried to win a Jew to Christ?) But of course there are marvelous examples of individual saved Jews, such as the great Jewish evangelists Jacob Gartenhaus and Hyman Appelman, and the concert pianist Sam Rotman we recently had here for a concert and to teach us the Seder.
The simple facts that the Jews retained their national Israeli ID despite all the persecutions against them, and that the eschatological events haven't yet occurred sustains your definition of 'genea' for certain verses of Scripture.
 

kyredneck

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Josephus wrote

Josephus, along with Christ and John the Baptist and NT writers, verified the truthfulness/fulfillment of 'The Song Of Moses' pertaining to that generation of Jews contemporary with Christ and the apostles:

Moses:

29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

Josephus:

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2
 
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robycop3

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Josephus, along Christ and John the Baptist and NT writers, verified the truthfulness/fulfillment of 'The Song Of Moses' pertaining to that generation of Jews contemporary with Christ and the apostles:

Moses:

29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

Josephus:

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2
...Except-THE ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED. You can't prove differently.
 

robycop3

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Lol, the historian Josephus thoroughly covered 'the time of Jacob's trouble', he was eyewitness to it.
Nupe ! He invented it from Scripture. You put too much trust in a turncoat rebel leader who was trying to not be killed after being captured. And the great trib will be WORLDWIDE, as Jesus said in Rev. 3:10. If the trib had already happened, Jesus is 'WAY-overdue !
 

John of Japan

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Lol, the historian Josephus thoroughly covered 'the time of Jacob's trouble', he was eyewitness to it.
Please give the reference in Josephus for this. I have the four volume set and can look it up. But the index (end of Vol. IV) has nothing about Jacob's trouble.
 

robycop3

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Please give the reference in Josephus for this. I have the four volume set and can look it up. But the index (end of Vol. IV) has nothing about Jacob's trouble.
The only reference to 'the time of Jacob's trouble" is in Jeremiah 30:7. Josephus woulda likely been familiar with Jerry's writings. But the TRUTH is, those events didn't happen then; just the fulfilling of the "days of vengeance", which was on the Jews alone, not the rest of Israel, nor the whole world.
 

kyredneck

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I have the four volume set and can look it up.

Josephus thoroughly covers both the Roman invasion and the civil war in 'Antiquities' and 'Wars' that brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the violent end of the Mosaic *Covenant.

*Economy
 
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Salty

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Six hour warning
This thread will -a closed no sooner than 9 pm EDT / 6 pm PDT
 

John of Japan

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Josephus thoroughly covers both the Roman invasion and the civil war in 'Antiquities' and 'Wars' that brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the violent end of the Mosaic *Covenant.

*Economy
I knew that much. You did not answer my question. Let me rephrase it. Where does Josephus specify that such events were "Jacob's trouble"?
 
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