The Number Of God’s Elect

[Tea]

If in the passive voice, that means the person or people receive benefit from the action.

What the verse does NOT say:
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life.

What the verse DOES say:
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

You, Sir, have been sold a fiction. I cannot pull you out. You must actually study and find the truth for yourself.

No sir, when attempts are made to change definitions and rearrange words, it demonstrates a refusal to believe what has been written.

 

[Zaatar71]

Z all you have proven is that you are a calvinist.

Hold on SH, JohnC has pronounced that I am not a Calvinist ! Not once did you question him on that. No one on here disputed his claim, so I guess you cannot say I am

Your own confessions say that God determined all things

here is the problem this time Sh, you cannot even quote the Confession of faith accurately , so it is not possible you could begin to understand it, or what it teaches directly......

thus any one that is condemned is condemned because God determined that they would be condemned B4 they even existed. If your version of god picked out all those that would be saved prior to creation then logically he also picked out all those that would be doomed.

It is sad that even that simple fact seems to be beyond your ability to grasp.

Some day you might come back and read your posts and see they were foolish.

Why would I,

Maybe so you would not be posting like a fool, not knowing what was actually available to you that you turned your nose up at. You remind me of little children who will not try a new vegetable, or food, because they never have before. You are just like it.

someone that trusts the word of God, want to listen to someone, Beeke, that promotes a philosophy based on pagan teachings?

this post is as close to moronic as you can be. You have not read one line of what he teaches, not one book, yet you are judge ,jury, and executioner. This is why your posts have no substance whatsoever. This is why you will not learn, you and any others who will not read the books of men,lol , You can just read the musings of JohnC, going on and on about France, ECF's and whatever else he wants to misrepresent. You ,JohnC, and Van, riding off into the sunset together

It is sad that you have placed so much faith in man.

You ignore godly teachers at your own peril,

 

[Silverhair]

Is God allowed to run salvation then as He so chooses? Can He decide who are the elect or not?

Can God give man an actual free will with which to make real choices for which he will be judged?

What do we see in scripture @JesusFan. Eph 2:8 For it is by grace {how one is saved} you have been saved through faith,..{the reason one is saved}

That one verse answers both of your questions @JesusFan

God is sovereign so I have to wonder why do those that hold to the DoG/TULIP want to deny this truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Hold on SH, JohnC has pronounced that I am not a Calvinist ! Not once did you question him on that. No one on here disputed his claim, so I guess you cannot say I am

What does JonC's view have to do with mine Z?
I call you a calvinist because that is what your posts point you out as being.

here is the problem this time Sh, you cannot even quote the Confession of faith accurately , so it is not possible you could begin to understand it, or what it teaches directly......

Which confession do you want Z

WCF
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

LBCF
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass

Both say the same thing Z. By the both confessions WCF/LBCF calvinists make the false claim that God freely and unchangeably decreed/ordained all things.

So it is your confessions that make God the author of evil. Your false theology has called the character of God into question by your slanderous comments.

Some day you might come back and read your posts and see they were foolish.

Well since scripture is not foolish and I post according to scripture then I will not have any doubt about what I posted..

Maybe so you would not be posting like a fool, not knowing what was actually available to you that you turned your nose up at. You remind me of little children who will not try a new vegetable, or food, because they never have before. You are just like it.

You think I reject Beeke because I do not know calvinism, wrong . I reject Beeke because I do know calvinism.

this post is as close to moronic as you can be. You have not read one line of what he teaches, not one book, yet you are judge ,jury, and executioner. This is why your posts have no substance whatsoever. This is why you will not learn, you and any others who will not read the books of men,lol , You can just read the musings of JohnC, going on and on about France, ECF's and whatever else he wants to misrepresent. You ,JohnC, and Van, riding off into the sunset together

I do not have to read the book of Mormon to know that it is wrong. Just as I do not have to read Beeke to know that his calvinist views are wrong. Does he say anything different than the other calvinist teachers? No he does not so when one is wrong then those that say the same thing are wrong also.

Does Beeke say anything different than Wayne Grudem?

You ignore godly teachers at your own peril,

That is why I do not ignore John, Paul, Peter, James etc or any of the OT saints.

Sadly you seem to trust more in your calvinist teachers than you do those teachers found in scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

@Zaatar71

Here is a quote from a prominent teacher. Do you agree or disagree with what is said?

We begin with two assumptions or presuppositions:
(1) that the Bible is true and that it is, in fact, our only absolute standard of truth;

(2) that the God who is spoken of in the Bible exists, and that he is who the Bible says he is: the Creator of heaven and earth and all things in them.

These two presuppositions, of course, are always open to later adjustment or modification or deeper confirmation,

 

[Zaatar71]

What does JonC's view have to do with mine Z?
I call you a calvinist because that is what your posts point you out as being.


Which confession do you want Z

WCF
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

LBCF
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass

Both say the same thing Z. By the both confessions WCF/LBCF calvinists make the false claim that God freely and unchangeably decreed/ordained all things.

So it is your confessions that make God the author of evil. Your false theology has called the character of God into question by your slanderous comments.


Well since scripture is not foolish and I post according to scripture then I will not have any doubt about what I posted..


You think I reject Beeke because I do not know calvinism, wrong . I reject Beeke because I do know calvinism.


I do not have to read the book of Mormon to know that it is wrong. Just as I do not have to read Beeke to know that his calvinist views are wrong. Does he say anything different than the other calvinist teachers? No he does not so when one is wrong then those that say the same thing are wrong also.

Does Beeke say anything different than Wayne Grudem?

What does JonC's view have to do with mine Z?
I call you a calvinist because that is what your posts point you out as being.


Which confession do you want Z

WCF
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

LBCF
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass

Both say the same thing Z. By the both confessions WCF/LBCF calvinists make the false claim that God freely and unchangeably decreed/ordained all things.

So it is your confessions that make God the author of evil. Your false theology has called the character of God into question by your slanderous comments.


Well since scripture is not foolish and I post according to scripture then I will not have any doubt about what I posted..


You think I reject Beeke because I do not know calvinism, wrong . I reject Beeke because I do know calvinism.


I do not have to read the book of Mormon to know that it is wrong. Just as I do not have to read Beeke to know that his calvinist views are wrong. Does he say anything different than the other calvinist teachers? No he does not so when one is wrong then those that say the same thing are wrong also.

Does Beeke say anything different than Wayne Grudem?


That is why I do not ignore John, Paul, Peter, James etc or any of the OT saints.

Sadly you seem to trust more in your calvinist teachers than you do those teachers found in scripture.

You quoted from two solid confessions but do not understand what they teach from the scriptures. This also explains why you and other anti cals blame God for mans sin. I understand.

 

[Silverhair]

@Zaatar71

You call the WCF/LBCF solid confessions but I see them as flawed efforts by men too support a particular theological view that is at odds with the word of God.

You can trust your man-made philosophy and I will trust the word of God.

 

[Zaatar71]

@Zaatar71

You call the WCF/LBCF solid confessions but I see them as flawed efforts by men too support a particular theological view that is at odds with the word of God.

You can trust your man-made philosophy and I will trust the word of God.

Looks as if you trust JohnC and Van and what they say, rather than godly teachers. To each his own.

 

[Silverhair]

Looks as if you trust JohnC and Van and what they say, rather than godly teachers. To each his own.

Have to burst your bubble Z. My faith is not dependent on what Van or JonC think or say.

I have told you more than once that I trust the word of God but that just goes over your head.

You on the other hand have used man to support your view rather than the bible. So take a look in the mirror Z.

I asked you a question in an earier post but you must have missed it so I will ask it again.


Here is a quote from a prominent teacher. Do you agree or disagree with what is said?

We begin with two assumptions or presuppositions:
(1) that the Bible is true and that it is, in fact, our only absolute standard of truth;
(2) that the God who is spoken of in the Bible exists, and that he is who the Bible says he is: the Creator of heaven and earth and all things in them.

These two presuppositions, of course, are always open to later adjustment or modification or deeper confirmation,

 

[Tea]

Ephesians 1:4 is NOT about the election.

Paul identifies "us" as himself along with all the believers mentioned in the letter. They were not unkown to God prior to creation. They were chosen by Him and were predestined to be conformed to His image and receive the blessings associated with being in Christ.

 

[Van]

What the verse does NOT say:
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life.

What the verse DOES say:
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.



No sir, when attempts are made to change definitions and rearrange words, it demonstrates a refusal to believe what has been written.

What the verse does say: as many as "accepted the direction to eternal life believed."

The attempt to change the definition of "tasso" to unilateral appointment demonstrates a refusal to believe what has been written. The "direction" was spoken to or sown upon the Gentiles, thus "Tasso" is in the passive voice, as the Gentiles were acted upon. However, their response, to believe is in the active voice.

Unless you do you own study, rather than copy and past the same arguments I have seen dozens of times, you will not get to the truth.

Here again is the deal, some one in authority, a person or group, specifies an arrangement, such as we will meet here, or we will meet then, and when those being given the direction accept that arrangement, then a "tasso" type of appointment is made. You can look at every single usage of tasso in the new testament, and always find the same kind of arrangement. 100%.

 

[Van]

Ever notice how often Calvinist charge me with changing scripture. Ever notice how Demoncrats charge others with what they have been doing.
Mr. Trump is charged with weaponizing the DOJ.
Van is charged with altering the meaning of scripture.

Here is a short list:
No one seeks after God becomes no one ever seeks after God.
The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit becomes the natural man cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit.
Christ died as a ransom for all becomes Christ died as a ransom for some.

As many as had accepted the direction [spoken by Paul] to eternal life believed becomes as many as had been unilaterally appointed by God for eternal life believed.

Last one, we are to "hasten the day" becomes we are to desire the day.

 

[Tea]

What the verse does say: as many as "accepted the direction to eternal life believed."

Let us take into account that nearly every prominent English translation, created by a committee of the world's leading Greek scholars, contradicts that interpretation.

The "direction" was spoken to or sown upon the Gentiles, thus "Tasso" is in the passive voice, as the Gentiles were acted upon. However, their response, to believe is in the active voice.

I understand that some translators might argue that the participle should be interpreted as middle voice rather than passive, given the absence of an agent. Regardless of which way you go, the passive interpretation aligns with the broader context of scripture, which clearly addresses the concept of unconditional election in other places.

Here again is the deal, some one in authority, a person or group, specifies an arrangement, such as we will meet here, or we will meet then, and when those being given the direction accept that arrangement, then a "tasso" type of appointment is made.

In this instance, the Gentiles were guided to the precise location necessary for them to hear the Gospel message and have faith. This kind of arrangement was the consequence of divine intervention, and the intended result was for them to receive eternal life.

 

[Tea]

I want to highlight the charge against Calvinists, claiming that we are the ones not accepting the plain meaning of scripture.

And once again, a Calvinist says a verse does not mean what it says, because it does not fit with Calvinist doctrine.

Later on, the poster engages in the exact behavior that we are being blamed for.

There no need to not accept the plain meaning of the verse, except to revise it to fit previously accepted dogma.

At which point, the initial accusation is redirected towards us.

Ever notice how often Calvinist charge me with changing scripture.

Let that sink in.

 

[Van]

Let us take into account that nearly every prominent English translation, created by a committee of the world's leading Greek scholars, contradicts that interpretation.

I understand that some translators might argue that the participle should be interpreted as middle voice rather than passive, given the absence of an agent. Regardless of which way you go, the passive interpretation aligns with the broader context of scripture, which clearly addresses the concept of unconditional election in other places.

In this instance, the Gentiles were guided to the precise location necessary for them to hear the Gospel message and have faith. This kind of arrangement was the consequence of divine intervention, and the intended result was for them to receive eternal life.

Sir, it is pointless to continue, you are just restating the same arguments I have addressed many times. For example you mention those who say that Tasso is in the middle voice. Which just ignores what I said. There is nothing wrong with translating tasso as appoint, but to claim it means unilaterally appointed by God is not the contextual meaning. You have not even addressed all the causes where the word means to accept an arrangement by mutual consent.

Your mind is made up, and is closed to even discussing the topic.

As for your post #74, I know and you know and everyone else knows that Calvinism is supported by misrepresenting scripture, as I documented.

No need to waste our time...

 

[Tea]

Let these last couple of pages demonstrate why it's so much easier to simply allow verses to say what they say. This approach will help you avoid numerous headaches that come from trying to twist the text into something it doesn't genuinely communicate.

You'll be pleasantly surprised at how beautifully consistent Scripture really is.

 

[Tea]

God know who will freely trust in Him is not the same as your idea that He has determined who will be able to trust in Him.

Could you explain how it is that God can know those who trust in Him from the very beginning of time and how that will remain unchanged until the end of time?

The calvinist view that God picks so many and no more means that He also reprobates all the others. They are condemned through no fault of their own but just because God did not pick them.

God saves certain individuals while permitting others to stay in their fallen condition. If God does not extend mercy to them, they will still be accountable for their own sinful inclinations.

None of the verse even come close to supporting your unconditiuonal election.

Then I have to wonder if you have even given at least one of those verses an honest evaluation.

I am not saying Clement did not speak for himself I am saying what he said does not help your case. It does not support your theory that God picked out a select group for salvation rather it just tells us that God knows all that will be saved through faith in Him.

If God is aware of the precise count of saved individuals, then that figure cannot be altered, a belief that Clement also appeared to hold.

You said that the "all" equaled the elect. Care to show how that works out from the context?

2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

The term "all" is focused on "you". It refers to all believers, the chosen ones. Now, I invite you to demonstrate from the context where the entirety of humanity is being considered.

What we do see is man responds to God with faith and as you know faith is not a work so no synergism there Tea.

If faith must be put into action through human effort and only then can God save them, then that is the very definition of synergism, and some might go as far as calling that a work.

Actually I do not think you do understand the DoG/TULIP as well as you think you do. If you did then you would see what that flawed theory does to the character of God.

DoG/TULIP allows for God to be sovereign and for Him to demonstrate His mercy, His wrath, and His justice as He sees fit.

Romans 9:14 (ESV)
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

You must this that the Holy Spirit was just wasting His time when He convicts the world. Ans why spread the gospel if none could believe it?

The Holy Spirit indeed convicts the world of sin, but it serves multiple purposes. Simply experiencing conviction of sin does not necessitate that an individual will repent and will be the basis of their judgment if they don't. Those who genuinely repent of their sins will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the designated time and will be welcomed into the presence of the Lord.

Actually according to the C/R view if you are not part of the select group it has been determined that you will reject God.

Man has determined that they will reject God all on their own. God simply selects who He wants to save out of that group.

He has to determine all things not just some things or He is not sovereign.

That's exactly right.

The question is since they are doing just as God determined they do then why is He judging them for doing as He determined?

He has the right to use a vessel of wrath as He sees fit.

He could have intervened in all their lives so why did He condemn them from the start?

Nobody was condemned from the start. Adam fell, and as a result, all of us followed suit.

God could have force all people to come to Him just as you say He forced the C/R's to come to Him.

Sure, He could have done it that way, but He chose not to, as He aims to showcase His attributes to His creation, which includes His justice and His mercy.

Those that think the DoG/TULIP is correct also think that they are part of the "elect". The reality is that there is no why that they can know if they are or are not. They just have to hope. Even their faith is not their own as according to C/R it had to be given to them.

It's very simple. If you have faith, then that demonstrates that you are elect. The same is true even for those who reject Dog/TULIP.

The only true test is to persevere to the end in saving faith. If one fails to persevere, that person only reveals that while they may have thought their faith was real, it was only a case of self deception, or even worse, divine

A faith grounded in the completed work of Christ is a true faith. If you are believing at any moment, you can be confident that you possess eternal life. Conversely, if you are not believing at any moment, you cannot be assured of having eternal life.

 

[Silverhair]

Could you explain how it is that God can know those who trust in Him from the very beginning of time and how that will remain unchanged until the end of time?

It is called foreknowledge. He knows all those that will freely trust in Him.

God saves certain individuals while permitting others to stay in their fallen condition. If God does not extend mercy to them, they will still be accountable for their own sinful inclinations.

Not according to your Clavinist divine determinism. He by not picking them has condemned the vast majority to hell.

Your comment is what i see form calvinist all the time. God determines all things but yet man is responsible as if he could over rule what God has determined.

Calvinists cannot get their story straight.

Then I have to wonder if you have even given at least one of those verses an honest evaluation.

I have, but I do not read them through those calvinist glasses.

If God is aware of the precise count of saved individuals, then that figure cannot be altered, a belief that Clement also appeared to hold.

Yes God knows all those that will freely trust in Him. But it would seem that you think foreknowledge of who will freely trust in God actually means that God has to have picked them out before creation.

2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

The term "all" is focused on "you". It refers to all believers, the chosen ones. Now, I invite you to demonstrate from the context where the entirety of humanity is being considered.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Yes God is patient with believers but He also wants all to come to repentance as we see here:
1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So we see that God is consistent in His desire that all be saved.

If faith must be put into action through human effort and only then can God save them, then that is the very definition of synergism, and some might go as far as calling that a work.

Faith is not a work but it is a condition of our salvation. Faith is not a human effort as you seem to think.

The bible does not call faith a work so why do the calvinists do so?

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

DoG/TULIP allows for God to be sovereign and for Him to demonstrate His mercy, His wrath, and His justice as He sees fit.

Romans 9:14 (ESV)
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

These have to be the most soul crushing doctrines that have ever been put forward.

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election [chosen before the foundation of the world] that will partake of the Limited Atonement [Christ only covered their sins] will then be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. [God does not draw them at all] So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. The DoG/TULIP theology precludes this. But it seems those who hold to that view do not want to acknowledge that fact.

If, according to C/R, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed form the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.

But Tea what you call justice is actually not justice.

The Holy Spirit indeed convicts the world of sin, but it serves multiple purposes. Simply experiencing conviction of sin does not necessitate that an individual will repent and will be the basis of their judgment if they don't. Those who genuinely repent of their sins will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the designated time and will be welcomed into the presence of the Lord.

I agree

Man has determined that they will reject God all on their own. God simply selects who He wants to save out of that group.

Actually according to calvinism God has determined who will reject Him. For callvinists to say He picked out their so called"elect" and yet deny that also means that the rest are condemned is just denial of simple logic.

If one is not part of the calvinist elect then they are part of the condemned reprobate.

That's exactly right.

So you are now agreeing that under the calvinist view God has determined all those that will reject Him and that He is the author of all the sin and evil we see in the world.

Not what we see in scripture but it is refreshing to see a calvinist admit that is what their theology entails.

He has the right to use a vessel of wrath as He sees fit.

Even to condemn those He made reject Him from the start. Does not look like the God we see in the bible, the one that loves His creation and wants all to come to repentance.

Nobody was condemned from the start. Adam fell, and as a result, all of us followed suit.

Now when you say that then you have to agree that God has actually given man a free will. And if a free will then the ability to trust in Him which vast numbers of people have done.

Sure, He could have done it that way, but He chose not to, as He aims to showcase His attributes to His creation, which includes His justice and His mercy.

Agreed He does want to show His justice and His mercy which means that He will not condemn man from the start as your calvinist theory says He has done.

It's very simple. If you have faith, then that demonstrates that you are elect. The same is true even for those who reject Dog/TULIP.

But according to your calvinism you were "elect" b4 creation so no faith as you did not exist. But even the faith you think you have is something that you say God gave you after you were saved so you have to hope that it is real since you had nothing to do with it.

But the only reason that I know that I am one of the elect is because I freely trusted in Christ Jesus and was placed in the "Elect One"

A faith grounded in the completed work of Christ is a true faith. If you are believing at any moment, you can be confident that you possess eternal life. Conversely, if you are not believing at any moment, you cannot be assured of having eternal life.

I can trust in my salvation but for the calvinist they have to hope that the faith they say they have is in fact real.
Thinking you were picked out B4 creation and that God gave you faith to believe is actually a salvation built on sand.

 

[Van]

Why not believe 2 Peter 3:12: NASB
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Here is the NET bible footnote:
Or possibly, “striving for,” but the meaning “hasten” for σπουδάζω (spoudazw) is normative in Jewish apocalyptic literature (in which the coming of the Messiah/the end is anticipated). Such a hastening is not an arm-twisting of the divine volition, but a response by believers that has been decreed by God.

There no need to not accept the plain meaning of the verse, except to revise it to fit previously accepted dogma.

Ditto for the fields are white for harvest, or many shall seek the narrow door or on and on. We either subject God's word to our doctrine or we subject our doctrine to God's word. God gives grace to the humble.

Here again is a restatement

The view "of God planning to save a specific number of individuals for His own possession and then end the age of grace, with Christ setting foot on the Mount, I believe is true. So the more we help to harvest from the fields white for harvest, the sooner Christ will return. Thus we should be endeavoring to "hasten the day.""

 

[Van]

Let these last couple of pages demonstrate why it's so much easier to simply allow verses to say what they say. This approach will help you avoid numerous headaches that come from trying to twist the text into something it doesn't genuinely communicate.

You'll be pleasantly surprised at how beautifully consistent Scripture really is.

Here the poster attributes to others his behavior of twisting the text to fit man-made doctrine. Go figure.

The Greek word translated as appointed in Acts 13:48 is "tasso" and always refers to an appointment by mutual consent. Another Greek word, "tithemi" (G5087) refers to a unilateral appointment, and is used to refer to such appointments made by God. Thus Calvinist doctrine, parroted by many posters, substitutes "tithemi" for tasso and then they charge those correcting the error with twisting the text. Go figure...

Examples where "tithemi" is used in the inspired text to indicate a unilateral appointment by God are found in Matthew 24:51, Luke 12:46, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Timothy 1:11, Hebrews 1:2 and 1 Peter 2:8.