I think he means in context...dealing with the topic
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The Offer of the Gospel
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I disagree with your interpretation and application of those proof texts, yes.
Again, you are not producing any kind of an argument here. We interpret passages differently, that is a given. But what is a FACT, is that you have yet to produce one verse that even mentions the word 'gospel' and 'inability' to prove your contention that God's powerful, life-giving gospel truth is insufficient to enable a lost man to respond willingly.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Wise approach on your part... When you don't have a case to make pretend your already made it and move on... :smilewinkgrin:
he made the case several times over....You are not quite up to it...so you now try and dismiss it. You have not made any case at all.When the scriptures are offered and you attempt to explain them away...that leaves you without any scripture.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Restating your dogma's talking points while listing the same proof texts over and over is not a debate, its a diatribe. This is a debate forum yet he will not engage in a debate. He presents his interpretations of a particular text then I rebut with questions and arguments that he (and you now) divert attention away from by pretending like you've already defended your position.
You ASSUME that men are born unable to respond willingly to God's gospel appeal using verses that don't discuss men's abilities in light of the gospel. You use verses that talk about men's inability to submit to God law to support your contention that men are likewise unable to trust in Christ, the one who fulfilled the law for us because we couldn't.
The major mistake of Calvinistic reasoning is that you all take the biblical teaching of man's inability to attain righteousness by law and apply it to your erroneous and unfounded belief that men must be equally unable to attain righteousness by faith.
Skandelon
B]
Offering the clear teaching of scripture is not talking points and dogma.
You denying those scriptures is not a debate.It is a denial of scripture.
Your denial of scripture does not equate to an unwillingness to debate.
When we offer a JW verses on the trinity and they deny those verses...there is no debate at all.There is truth and error.
When the scripture says they cannot...they do not have the power or ability dunamis...there is no debate at all.
There is you explaining away the clear scripture along with Van's nonsense about unsaved feeding on the milk of the gospel or whatever such nonsense he posts.
Sure he will and has. he was being polite when informing you that he has presented the scripture often and accurately....You and others fail to reckon with it...I am not his spokesmen but just a casual and impartial observer of the facts:laugh:
When scripture is exceedingly clear there is no where to divert to?When you turn from scripture you have novelties like you men post in error.
To believ e 1cor 2 and romans 8 is not an assumption but it is God given truth that we believe as written...you deny it..
the bible says no man can...you say sure he can
the bible says the natural man cannot...you say sure he can..just give him some more info to make an informed choice.
We believe it as written...you do not...you "question and argue" in your words.
That is your wrong idea;
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
the scripture speaks of the word of God as His law. Unsaved men cannot submit savingly to it.
B]
Offering the clear teaching of scripture is not talking points and dogma.
You denying those scriptures is not a debate.It is a denial of scripture.
Your denial of scripture does not equate to an unwillingness to debate.
When we offer a JW verses on the trinity and they deny those verses...there is no debate at all.There is truth and error.
When the scripture says they cannot...they do not have the power or ability dunamis...there is no debate at all.
There is you explaining away the clear scripture along with Van's nonsense about unsaved feeding on the milk of the gospel or whatever such nonsense he posts.
.
Sure he will and has. he was being polite when informing you that he has presented the scripture often and accurately....You and others fail to reckon with it...I am not his spokesmen but just a casual and impartial observer of the facts:laugh:
Yes...quite well and often
You do try..but we deal in scripture...not reasonings .semantics and philosophy. The scriptures are the answer....
When scripture is exceedingly clear there is no where to divert to?When you turn from scripture you have novelties like you men post in error.
To believ e 1cor 2 and romans 8 is not an assumption but it is God given truth that we believe as written...you deny it..
the bible says no man can...you say sure he can
the bible says the natural man cannot...you say sure he can..just give him some more info to make an informed choice.
We believe it as written...you do not...you "question and argue" in your words.
That is your wrong idea;
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
the scripture speaks of the word of God as His law. Unsaved men cannot submit savingly to it.
You bring the word "hubris" to a whole new level.
Says you, the man who never offers his own exegesis.
Do you know why we keep stating the same thing over and over again? Because it is truth. You try to earn debate points by dismissing the truth and replacing it with cute little zingers like calling it a "diatribe". It is difficult to critique your position because you never state it; or at least you never offer exegetical proof for it. When I look at what you write I can only conclude that the emperor has no clothes.
preacher4truth
Active Member
My brother, I am blessed by your stand for truth, continue in it.
convicted1
Guest
The gospel is God's way of seperating His sheep from the goats. It's the call of reconciliation. The sheep run to Him and are reconciled, and the goats flee from it, having no desire for it.
Yes Willis.These verses are often misunderstood....
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
Many stop here and say see...God was In Christ reconciling the WORLD as if it meant every single person...but just read the rest of the verse and it gives clarity.......
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
This is only true of those elect sheep who are savingly drawn by the gospel call from the preached word.
their sins are not imputed to them
...as they are reconciled in Christ...
the unsaved answer for all their sins...not having a High Priest or substitute.
In another post you mentioned a key truth...Jesus as surety..he is the guarantee as he has gone beyond the vail on our behalf as our Great Eternal High Priest...who ever lives to make intercession for us. he also reconciles sheep in all the world...that is why missionaries go...
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
all over the world...everyone believing
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
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convicted1
Guest
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
This verse seems to fit the bill, imo:
Jeremiah 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Willis,
You are making the age old mistake of proof texting. Pulling verses from their context to apply them to your particular doctrinal point, regardless of the original intent.
Calvinists presume that people have no control over whether they are a sheep or a goat. That men have no say in their future. No hope. That is simply one of the most unbiblical doctrines the world has ever known...and dangerous IMO. Calvinists make this mistake with many of scripture's analogies, not just sheep and goats.
For example, how many times have you heard a Calvinist quote Rom. 9 about the vessels made for noble purpose or common use as proof text for the exact same thing as you are doing with sheep and goats above?
You all quote these verses as if mankind has nothing to do with being a vessel used for good or not. Just like you quote your sheep and goat proof texts with the assumption that men have no decision in the matter. But the bible is very clear that we do have a part to play in this, and that the Calvinistic application of these analogies is simply untrue.
For instance, read 2 Tim 2:20, where Paul refers to his same vessel analogy: "In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."
See that? Same exact analogy as the one in Rom. 9, yet here he validates the non-Calvinistic interpretation by showing that men do have a decision that effects the type of vessel they will become, just as men have a decision to enter in the gate to become a part of his flock.
Don't make the mistake of Calvinists by giving all unbelievers in our world the perfect excuse for their unbelief. "I was born a goat, unloved by my creator, rejected from birth, a vessel for ignoble use, an object of wrath, without hope." What better excuse for being an unbeliever and an enemy of God is there than that? You are GIVING THEM that excuse and it is a lie. It is not true. They are LOVED BY GOD (Jn 3:16), He wants them to repent and be saved (1 Pet. 3:9), He holds out his hands to them with patience (Rm. 10:32), He reveals himself to them clearly so they can understand (Rm 1), so they have NO EXCUSES!
You are making the age old mistake of proof texting. Pulling verses from their context to apply them to your particular doctrinal point, regardless of the original intent.
Calvinists presume that people have no control over whether they are a sheep or a goat. That men have no say in their future. No hope. That is simply one of the most unbiblical doctrines the world has ever known...and dangerous IMO. Calvinists make this mistake with many of scripture's analogies, not just sheep and goats.
For example, how many times have you heard a Calvinist quote Rom. 9 about the vessels made for noble purpose or common use as proof text for the exact same thing as you are doing with sheep and goats above?
You all quote these verses as if mankind has nothing to do with being a vessel used for good or not. Just like you quote your sheep and goat proof texts with the assumption that men have no decision in the matter. But the bible is very clear that we do have a part to play in this, and that the Calvinistic application of these analogies is simply untrue.
For instance, read 2 Tim 2:20, where Paul refers to his same vessel analogy: "In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."
See that? Same exact analogy as the one in Rom. 9, yet here he validates the non-Calvinistic interpretation by showing that men do have a decision that effects the type of vessel they will become, just as men have a decision to enter in the gate to become a part of his flock.
Don't make the mistake of Calvinists by giving all unbelievers in our world the perfect excuse for their unbelief. "I was born a goat, unloved by my creator, rejected from birth, a vessel for ignoble use, an object of wrath, without hope." What better excuse for being an unbeliever and an enemy of God is there than that? You are GIVING THEM that excuse and it is a lie. It is not true. They are LOVED BY GOD (Jn 3:16), He wants them to repent and be saved (1 Pet. 3:9), He holds out his hands to them with patience (Rm. 10:32), He reveals himself to them clearly so they can understand (Rm 1), so they have NO EXCUSES!
Skandelon
Actually...calvinists believe the scriptures as taught Inezk 34 God says He has His sheep who are lost....he will find each and everyone of them.
In jn 10;26 Jesus explained why reprobates continue on in sin;
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Yes ...Jesus clearly taught God's electing purposes being fulfilled in the gospel.
yes,,,just as described in eph 2 which you deny...here is man apart from God;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope,
and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Your denial of this truth will keep people in bondage.
Your finneyistic synergism is showing here
This shows perserverance of the saints in obeying the commands to mortify all known sin and pursue holiness without which ...no man will see the LORD.
yes we caught it in time.
Now you proof text as you suggested to willis not to do..taking 2pet3 aout of context...to offer this
Actually...calvinists believe the scriptures as taught Inezk 34 God says He has His sheep who are lost....he will find each and everyone of them.
In jn 10;26 Jesus explained why reprobates continue on in sin;
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Yes ...Jesus clearly taught God's electing purposes being fulfilled in the gospel.
yes,,,just as described in eph 2 which you deny...here is man apart from God;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope,
and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Your denial of this truth will keep people in bondage.
another passage you miss
Your finneyistic synergism is showing here
This shows perserverance of the saints in obeying the commands to mortify all known sin and pursue holiness without which ...no man will see the LORD.
yes we caught it in time.
Now you proof text as you suggested to willis not to do..taking 2pet3 aout of context...to offer this
psalms109:31
Active Member
Man can have unstable minds this is why we can't trust it at all.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
During the time of Jesus goats lead sheep to the slaughter and Jesus when He looked out to the multitude He seen sheep as without a shepherd.
Many sheep are being lead to hell by these goats those with unstable minds who trust it, are not only leading themselves to destruction but others. Multitude of sheep not Christ sheep, but sheep. There is 3 groups His sheep the saved, general sheep that only know how to do is follow and goats those leading the poor sheep to destruction , but not Jesus sheep.
In the end God will Separate these goats who are following the will of their Father the murderer from the beginning. They even hinder the messengers from spreading,the Gospel, so people can be saved.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
In time people are being disowned and included just as the scripture says even though outside of time God has the end results.
John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 9:26
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Exodus 32:33
The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
We as men think we can see things as God does living in time. We are not God we are mere men who's only hope to be saved is Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
During the time of Jesus goats lead sheep to the slaughter and Jesus when He looked out to the multitude He seen sheep as without a shepherd.
Many sheep are being lead to hell by these goats those with unstable minds who trust it, are not only leading themselves to destruction but others. Multitude of sheep not Christ sheep, but sheep. There is 3 groups His sheep the saved, general sheep that only know how to do is follow and goats those leading the poor sheep to destruction , but not Jesus sheep.
In the end God will Separate these goats who are following the will of their Father the murderer from the beginning. They even hinder the messengers from spreading,the Gospel, so people can be saved.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
In time people are being disowned and included just as the scripture says even though outside of time God has the end results.
John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 9:26
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Exodus 32:33
The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
We as men think we can see things as God does living in time. We are not God we are mere men who's only hope to be saved is Jesus Christ.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
:smilewinkgrin: For you and those of your theological persuasion perhaps.
QF,
Well sure it is...that is why we all sound similar- we mostly differ based more on spiritual growth and some being more familiar with the teachings.
To be honest I will contend for it however I prefer to discuss and learn more about the issues moving forward and learning more truth than can be used to be a more effective witness to those outside the Kingdom.
More seem to want to attack the truth we profess ....so it leads to some rather crisp exchanges than moving forward.
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Even though it may be that you and I are a little different on the concept and doctrine of election.
http://evangelicalarminians.org/jack-cottrell-election-calvinism-and-the-bible/
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