The Other Gospel Of Tongues

[HopefulNChrist]

You keep putting words in my mouth I have not even implied we could lose the Spirit but said (did you take the time to read my complete posts?) that we diminish His influence in our lives when we grieve and quench the Spirit.

I know you are not saying that but you give grounds for it.

In one of your earlier post, you had used modern day dictionary in defining "quench" which is to put out. When a reader sees that, how can he not derive a different conclusion from rather what you are saying?

You either go with the dictionary of today for what quench means or you do not. The reader nor I cannot see your application of quench to mean anything else other than reaching a different conclusion from how you are arriving at.

So I know you are not saying that but you lay the groundwork for it when you insist on modern day dictionary of what quench means for how you seemingly is applying that verse for your case of a need for an infilling of the Holy Spirit in order to be submissive to Him.​

My point is that our relationship with the Holy Spirit transcends the things of this world and the way we look at them.
Our relationship to the Holy Spirit is indicated by the fruit we bear, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self control.

On the other hand if one practices adultery, fornication, slander, ... of which apparently some believers are capable (Corinth, Thyatira) then the Spirit, though present in the sinful believer His influence is diminished to the minimum until repentance or chastisement or a home going.

What you said just now can only apply to our responsibility of what we sow towards; the fruits of the Spirit or the works of the flesh. By not sowing to the works of the flesh is sowing to the fruits of the Spirit. There is no need for an infilling of the Spirit, but there is necessity for sowing to the fruits of the Spirit rather than sowing to the works of the flesh.

You can say what you say without mentioning an infilling of the Spirit at all since that term is being used by Pentecostal / Charismatics / Catholics that it would be very easy for someone to go astray by among Christian believers today especially when a supernatural phenomenon happens. We should say what we really mean in regards to our faith in Jesus Christ, and not use any terms that by its meaning can cause a slippery slope when there is no need for that term.

.

 

[HankD]

I know you are not saying that but you give grounds for it.

In one of your earlier post, you had used modern day dictionary in defining "quench" which is to put out. When a reader sees that, how can he not derive a different conclusion from rather what you are saying?

You either go with the dictionary of today for what quench means or you do not. The reader nor I cannot see your application of quench to mean anything else other than reaching a different conclusion from how you are arriving at.

So I know you are not saying that but you lay the groundwork for it when you insist on modern day dictionary of what quench means for how you seemingly is applying that verse for your case of a need for an infilling of the Holy Spirit in order to be submissive to Him.​

What you said just now can only apply to our responsibility of what we sow towards; the fruits of the Spirit or the works of the flesh. By not sowing to the works of the flesh is sowing to the fruits of the Spirit. There is no need for an infilling of the Spirit, but there is necessity for sowing to the fruits of the Spirit rather than sowing to the works of the flesh.

You can say what you say without mentioning an infilling of the Spirit at all since that term is being used by Pentecostal / Charismatics / Catholics that it would be very easy for someone to go astray by among Christian believers today especially when a supernatural phenomenon happens. We should say what we really mean in regards to our faith in Jesus Christ, and not use any terms that by its meaning can cause a slippery slope when there is no need for that term.
.

True.

 

[JonShaff]

You keep putting words in my mouth I have not even implied we could lose the Spirit but said (did you take the time to read my complete posts?) that we diminish His influence in our lives when we grieve and quench the Spirit.

My point is that our relationship with the Holy Spirit transcends the things of this world and the way we look at them.
Our relationship to the Holy Spirit is indicated by the fruit we bear, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self control.

On the other hand if one practices adultery, fornication, slander, ... of which apparently some believers are capable (Corinth, Thyatira) then the Spirit, though present in the sinful believer His influence is diminished to the minimum until repentance or chastisement or a home going.

Philippians 1:11
May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation--the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ--for this will bring much glory and praise to God.

Sounds like we can be filled, or not.

Acts 13:52
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Filled--Imperfect, passive, indicative.

 

[Yeshua1]

By the grace of God, I have been keeping the faith in Jesus Christ and the traditions taught of us in regards to the calling of the gospel.

You are preaching something that can easily bring about a slain in the spirit event and the holy laughter movement when believers seek an infilling of the Holy Spirit to "refresh" them supernaturally.

God will do His work without reneging on His promise of us being always Spirit-filled so that we would not make the Father look evil by seeking a continual infilling of the Holy Ghost after our salvation.

Tell you what: hear this video that is saying the same thing as you are saying, but listen to him admitting to himself in being that leaky vessel. That is what I am opposing and why I am opposing because to be forever indwelled by the Holy Spirit is Spirit-filled. There is no other calling for a believer to seek after, let alone an infilling of the Spirit.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

The continual infilling of the Holy Spirit is NOT us getting more of Him externally coming into us, as we all when saved have Him in full, buts its how much of us that he has access to !

 

[Yeshua1]

In none of the address to the churches was the solution or the exhortation to seek an infilling of the Holy Spirit in doing so.

ONLY by being continually refilled by the Spirit will any of us have victory over sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, because if the Holy Spirit could leave us, we would not be able to grieve Him. To be forever indwelt by the Holy Spirit IS being infilled by the Holy Spirit always.

When I was sowing to the works of the flesh, the Lord still spoke to me thru the Holy Spirit in me to withdraw from doing so. I would not be able to withdraw if the grieved infilling and power of the Holy Spirit left me.

In none of my acts of repentance, there was no seeking an infilling nor power nor presence of the Holy Spirit for me to repent, because He is in me and is with me always as Jesus has promised this even in regards to Himself.

Nothing will separate us from the love of God, and that also includes nothing will separate us from the infilling, power, and Presence of the Holy Spirit in us.

All aree indwelt by Him, but only some of us are being Spirit infilled!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe you are missing the message of all those verses given to you. No saved believer will have a need to have a continual infilling of the Holy Ghost because they will never hunger nor thirst any more for such an infilling of the Holy Spirit after their salvation as promised.

When we grieve and quench Him, sin against God, are we Spirit filled at those times?

 

[Yeshua1]

There is no passage of scripture with the word "infilling" pertaining to the Spirit

The word is "filled" with the Spirit Grk. πληρόω-pleroo

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

UBS 04914 Fulfill, Make come true, bring about... bring to completion, complete, accomplish, finish...

To be "filled" with the Spirit is to be under His control because we are in the word, in prayer, listening,witnessing, giving, fellowshipping.
That control depends a lot on us.

These things of course as we have ability and opportunity to pursue them.

Its something that we must choose to do, as its not automatically we are all Filled with the Holy Spirit!

 

[Yeshua1]

Philippians 1:11
May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation--the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ--for this will bring much glory and praise to God.

Sounds like we can be filled, or not.

Acts 13:52
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Filled--Imperfect, passive, indicative.

They were being refilled in tat passage, to have joy and have the power to be bold witnesses for Jesus!

 

[JonShaff]

They were being refilled in tat passage, to have joy and have the power to be bold witnesses for Jesus!

I agree with you brother.

It's like the scene when Jesus was washing the feet of the disciples. He said to Peter, "you are already clean, you just need a fresh washing of your feet."(paraphrase). God has already indwelt us through His Holy Spirit, but we need to experience His power and presence afresh.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree with you brother.

It's like the scene when Jesus was washing the feet of the disciples. He said to Peter, "you are already clean, you just need a fresh washing of your feet."(paraphrase). God has already indwelt us through His Holy Spirit, but we need to experience His power and presence afresh.

His theolgy seems to be a mixture of bad Pentacostal and some exclusionary aspects to it!

 

[JonShaff]

Ephesians 3
19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Why does Paul pray for believers so that they may be filled with all the fullness of God?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Philippians 1:11
May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation--the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ--for this will bring much glory and praise to God.

Sounds like we can be filled, or not.​

What version is that?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Sounds like Jesus Christ will continue His work in us by filling us with the fruits of the Spirit rather than a testimony of us needing an infilling. That is His work. Not for you seeking His Presence in the worship place nor for an infilling.

Acts 13:52
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Filled--Imperfect, passive, indicative.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

After much success by the Lord and yet some people persecuted and expelled them out of their coasts. A reader would ask how can God let that happen after that much success? How can the disciples do that without getting mad, especially after shaking the dust off of their feet? By the Holy Ghost. Not by their intellect or will power of mind over matter mentality, but only by the Holy Ghost can they let go because Jesus Christ is Lord regardless of what has happened. That is why they were full of joy and thus the fruit of the Spirit and a testimony of how because they were full of the Holy Ghost; & not with hatred, malice, etc. which are the works of the flesh.

Pentecostals and Charismatics and Catholic Charismatics like to use the Book of Acts in creating teachings while ignoring scripture that refutes that teaching plainly in the letters to the churches; the epistles. Don't make their mistake.

 

[HankD]

IMO This discussion is self defeating.

People are talking past each other without careful reading and taking note of the what is being said in each others posts.

Another opinion (based upon scripture):
The quantitative/qualitative measure of the power of the Holy Spirit in our Christian walk is directly related to the demonstration of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) in our lives.

My objection:
It is not as if we have a gas gauge indicating 1/2 or 3/4 or full or nearly empty of the Spirit.

Our demeanor however speaks loudly as to whether we have grieved/quenched the Holy Spirit.
Not that anyone currently posting has done so apart from the strong disagreements but then again this is a Christian debate forum.

Where we find the imperative to be filled with the Spirit it is related to relationships and submission to one another.

Ephesians 5
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

IMO This discussion is self defeating.

People are talking past each other without careful reading and taking note of the what is being said in each others posts.

Another opinion (based upon scripture):
The quantitative/qualitative measure of the power of the Holy Spirit in our Christian walk is directly related to the demonstration of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) in our lives.

My objection:
It is not as if we have a gas gauge indicating 1/2 or 3/4 or full or nearly empty of the Spirit.

Our demeanor however speaks loudly as to whether we have grieved/quenched the Holy Spirit.
Not that anyone currently posting has done so apart from the strong disagreements but then again this is a Christian debate forum.

The only reason we are speaking past each other is because of the term of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, whereby the contention I have is that there is necessity for an infilling of the Holy Spirit as if placed on the believer to obtain, but I say He has already done it.

You had agreed that there is no need to use the term, "infilling of the Holy Spirit" in showing our responsibility in what we sow towards; the fruits of the Spirit or the works of the flesh, but yet again, you come across that way below.

Where we find the imperative to be filled with the Spirit it is related to relationships and submission to one another.

Ephesians 5
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

The submission in verse 21 is to each other in the fear of God; that is not referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit. I am not saying we are not to submit to the Holy Spirit, for which I say to avoid confusion, we are to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, to avoid the evil of the latter day where emphasis is on the Holy Spirit as if we are to relate to Him as the Bridegroom when He is only the Spirit of the Bridegroom. We, as the bride, are to submit to the Son as the Bridegroom, because the Son is how we are married to God as in made one with God.

As for Ephesians 5:18, I shared with you the difference in what you were trying to convey as being submissive to the authority of the Holy Spirit; albeit again, the Holy Spirit does not have His own authority, but representing the authority of the Son.

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. ESV

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.... .20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. KJV

We are never to lose sight of Christ, the Son of God in our relationship with God the Father through the Son by placing any focus on the Holy Spirit as if there is a need to do so for Christ Jesus to finish His work in us through Him. Our focus should only be on the Bridegroom if we wish to avoid the slippery slope that are the words and phrase used by those that have gone astray when seeking to be infilled by the Holy Ghost.

Such clarity is needed because some believers read verses as if the Holy Spirit is speaking by His own authority as verses say when the Spirit speaks, but that is for the reader to know under the understanding that the Spirit is speaking for Another.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

When Christ was on earth, the Holy Spirit served as the Spirit of the Father; now that Jesus has ascended, and all power has been given unto the Son, the Holy Spirit speaks for the Son; as in being the Spirit of Christ.

That truth reproves errant modern Bible versions of Romans 8:26-27 where verse 26 implies that the Holy Spirit would use God's gift of tongues which was prophesied to speak only unto the people, and turn it around to use as a means for uttering His own intercessions out loud when John 16:13 testifies that He cannot.

That truth is blurred in modern Bibles that those that have gone astray, do not see how John 16:13 exposes Romans 8:26-27 in that modern Bible as being in error whereas the KJV has it right whereby even "His groanings" cannot be uttered.

But they treat John 16:13 in their modern Bible as if it didn't really say that so Romans 8:26-27 is okay with them.

Now if believers are having a hard time to discern that truth of John 16:13 in all Bible versions, then you should know how important it is in what we say in regards to being submissive to the Lord Jesus Christ by NOT sowing to the works of the flesh, drunkenness whereby one can reach that past tense state by drinking wine in excess, and since we are talking about the works of the flesh, then we are talking about the fruits of the Spirit that opposes drunkenness which is temperance, aka self control, and thus remaining filled with the Spirit of temperance. Ephesians 5:18 is not inferring a necessity to be infilled by the Spirit but to remain filled with the fruit of the Spirit by remaining sober.

As it is, those who have gone astray, are promoting a continual infilling of the Holy Spirit whereby slain in the spirit and holy laughter and other signs of confusions comes by. There can be no partiality for the sake of those wayward believers if they are ever to see the truth that when the Holy Spirit speaks, He is speaking for Christ and cannot use tongues for His own purpose, and the other truth is that we are forever indwelt by the Holy Spirit, thus forever infilled of the Holy Spirit since salvation so that there is no necessity to seek to be filled of the Holy Ghost by which seducing spirits may come with signs.

 

[HankD]

As it is, those who have gone astray, are promoting a continual infilling of the Holy Spirit whereby slain in the spirit and holy laughter and other signs of confusions comes by. There can be no partiality for the sake of those wayward believers if they are ever to see the truth that when the Holy Spirit speaks, He is speaking for Christ and cannot use tongues for His own purpose, and the other truth is that we are forever indwelt by the Holy Spirit, thus forever infilled of the Holy Spirit since salvation so that there is no necessity to seek to be filled of the Holy Ghost by which seducing spirits may come with signs.

There is no such word used of our relationship with the Holy Spirit as "infilled" in the Scripture. as I have said before the word is "filled".
But I do agree, one needs to be careful with describing our relationship with Him.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

There is no such word used of our relationship with the Holy Spirit as "infilled" in the Scripture. as I have said before the word is "filled".
But I do agree, one needs to be careful with describing our relationship with Him.

I agree that we are to NOT sow to the works of the flesh, but remain filled with the fruit of the Spirit of temperance but we are always Spirit-filled as a testimony that we are always saved.

To me as I apply the scripture with His help, the foundation laid by Jesus Christ which can never be removed is meaning always Spirit-filled as a testimony that we are always saved. What we build on that foundation will be judged; the works of the flesh that are not repented of will be burned up, but still considered as defiling the temple of God for why the physical body will incur death.

If you were to correct a brother for having gotten drunk, you would not tell him to get filled with the Holy Spirit, but rather remain sober as in self control. If he cannot control his drinking in knowing his limit to avoid drunkenness, he should not drink at all. His exhortation is not to preach necessity or need to be Spirit-filled, but to tell him to go before that throne of grace for forgiveness and His help to remain sober and thus remaining in self control which is the fruit of the Spirit called temperance.

In the analogy of that foundation as Spirit-filled, once he becomes sober.. he is Spirit-filled, but he needs His help to repent so as to avoid drunkenness again. Looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin is the life of a Spirit-filled believer in running that race as a saved believer abiding in Christ Jesus in walking in the light with Him.

 

[HankD]

I agree that we are to NOT sow to the works of the flesh, but remain filled with the fruit of the Spirit of temperance but we are always Spirit-filled as a testimony that we are always saved.

To me as I apply the scripture with His help, the foundation laid by Jesus Christ which can never be removed is meaning always Spirit-filled as a testimony that we are always saved. What we build on that foundation will be judged; the works of the flesh that are not repented of will be burned up, but still considered as defiling the temple of God for why the physical body will incur death.

If you were to correct a brother for having gotten drunk, you would not tell him to get filled with the Holy Spirit, but rather remain sober as in self control. If he cannot control his drinking in knowing his limit to avoid drunkenness, he should not drink at all. His exhortation is not to preach necessity or need to be Spirit-filled, but to tell him to go before that throne of grace for forgiveness and His help to remain sober and thus remaining in self control which is the fruit of the Spirit called temperance.

In the analogy of that foundation as Spirit-filled, once he becomes sober.. he is Spirit-filled, but he needs His help to repent so as to avoid drunkenness again. Looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin is the life of a Spirit-filled believer in running that race as a saved believer abiding in Christ Jesus in walking in the light with Him.

OK my objection is the manner - to qualify/quantify His influence as in an earthly way as if we have an indicator as I previously mentioned - like a gas gauge on an auto mobile - 1/2 full (or 1/2 empty) 3/4, 1/4 etc... Realizing of course that human language often is inadequate (especially with prepositions) in describing human/deity relationships.

He either has us under His control or not (in our way of thinking). "Or not" does not mean we are lost (assuming a rebirth experience).
In actuality He is STILL in control, He is always in control whether He has our stamp of approval or not, of course.

Just as we have disciplined or dealt with our earthly children (as you have noted with the example of the prodigal son) God remains our God often times (at least in my case) bringing us back to the way and His control.

Yes, God is indeed glorified in the discipline of His children as folk stand amazed with His dealings on our behalf.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

OK my objection is the manner - to qualify/quantify His influence as in an earthly way as if we have an indicator as I previously mentioned - like a gas gauge on an auto mobile - 1/2 full (or 1/2 empty) 3/4, 1/4 etc... Realizing of course that human language often is inadequate (especially with prepositions) in describing human/deity relationships.

It is inadequate. I would say this is the more apt description that relates to what we sow towards.

1 John 3:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

By walking in the light, we are abiding in Him. By not walking in the light by sowing to the works of the flesh is not abiding in Him.

He either has us under His control or not (in our way of thinking). "Or not" does not mean we are lost (assuming a rebirth experience).
In actuality He is STILL in control, He is always in control whether He has our stamp of approval or not, of course.

Just as we have disciplined or dealt with our earthly children (as you have noted with the example of the prodigal son) God remains our God often times (at least in my case) bringing us back to the way and His control.

Yes, God is indeed glorified in the discipline of His children as folk stand amazed with His dealings on our behalf.

Hebrews 12:1-26 testifies to me that those who do not look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin will be chastened by the Father severely, and so we are not to refuse His calling to live that life of repentance as His disciple in running that race by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend in helping us to follow Him all the way Home. Otherwise, a chastening by the Father for a small season ( the great tribulation ) & thus physical death is warranted because the wages of unrepentant sins is death, before coming Home by Jesus Christ as partakers of His holiness.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is inadequate. I would say this is the more apt description that relates to what we sow towards.

1 John 3:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

By walking in the light, we are abiding in Him. By not walking in the light by sowing to the works of the flesh is not abiding in Him.



Hebrews 12:1-26 testifies to me that those who do not look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin will be chastened by the Father severely, and so we are not to refuse His calling to live that life of repentance as His disciple in running that race by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend in helping us to follow Him all the way Home. Otherwise, a chastening by the Father for a small season ( the great tribulation ) & thus physical death is warranted because the wages of unrepentant sins is death, before coming Home by Jesus Christ as partakers of His holiness.

We still have a corrupted sin nature residing in us once saved, and we can either submit to its wants and desires, or else submit to the Holy Spirit controlling us, for if we walk in our flesh, NOT filled by the Holy Spirit!