My argument stands. You merely conflated praying to with asking for prayer. Two different things. Now you've changed and are saying you never pray to anyone but God. Your argument has changed, not mine.
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The pagan roots of Easter
- Thread starter Hobie
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My argument stands. You merely conflated praying to with asking for prayer. Two different things. Now you've changed and are saying you never pray to anyone but God. Your argument has changed, not mine.
This is about THE most ignorant thing you've said yet.
Prayer is NOT asking??
Even when Greek lexicons and Webster's Dictionary agree that it IS??
"Pray" is a legal, juridical term that is used in police reports and court documents - and it simply means "ASK".
No - they're the SAME thing.
The fact that YOU can't seem to wrap your mind around this speaks volumes about YOU more than anything else . . .
Asking for prayer and praying to are the same thing? No they are not.
And ask is not an exact synonym for pray. There are two different words for these in all languages. Their meanings can overlap and are related, but they are not exact synonyms.
Very strange that you're so adamant about this, but you are wrong nonetheless.
I'm sorry - I just had to go back to this argument of yours because it is so woefully-ignorant.
You;ve NEVER heard of a word that has more than ONE meaning??
Here are some examples that I learned in the 3rd grade that I thought would be helpful:
"Beat"
1. to strike (a person or an animal) repeatedly and violently
2. defeat (someone) in a game, competition, etc.
"Plum"
1. any of various trees and shrubs (genus Prunus) of the rose family with globular to oval smooth-skinned edible fruits that are drupes with oblong seeds
2. something superior or very
3. a dark reddish purple
Getting the picture now??
Please refer to my last post for a rudimentary English lesson . . .
Yes, words have many meanings. That is not the issue. The issue is, you think all asking is praying. You are wrong. Asking someone to do something for you is not praying to them. Praying is something that involves deities or spirits in another realm. In english we do not pray to people for things we ask them for things. We pray to God for things.
I feel like I'm talking to a child.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
No.
I looked half a dozen of those verses up at random and in none of them was Jesus praying (Strong’s G4336: προσεύχομαι proseúchomai) to any person.
Sorry.
Here are some verses where Jesus does pray:
- [Mat 6:9 NASB] 9 "Pray,[G4336] then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
- [Mat 14:23 NASB] 23 After He had sent the crowds away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray;[G4336] and when it was evening, He was there alone.
- [Mat 19:13 NASB] 13 Then [some] children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray;[G4336] and the disciples rebuked them.
- [Mat 26:36, 39, 42, 44 NASB] 36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."[G4336] ...
- 39 And He went a little beyond [them,] and fell on His face and prayed,[G4336] saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will." ...
- 42 He went away again a second time and prayed,[G4336] saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done." ...
- 44 And He left them again, and went away and prayed[G4336] a third time, saying the same thing once more.
- [Mar 1:35 NASB] 35 In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left [the house,] and went away to a secluded place, and was praying[G4336] there.
- [Mar 6:46 NASB] 46 After bidding them farewell, He left for the mountain to pray.[G4336]
- [Mar 14:32, 35, 39 NASB] 32 They came to a place named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, "Sit here until I have prayed."[G4336] ...
- 35 And He went a little beyond [them,] and fell to the ground and [began] to pray[G4336] that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. ...
- 39 Again He went away and prayed,[G4336] saying the same words
- [Luk 3:21 NASB] 21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying,[G4336] heaven was opened,
- [Luk 5:16 NASB] 16 But Jesus Himself would [often] slip away to the wilderness and pray.[G4336]
- [Luk 6:12 NASB] 12 It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray,[G4336] and He spent the whole night in prayer to God.
- [Luk 9:18, 28-29 NASB] 18 And it happened that while He was praying[G4336] alone, the disciples were with Him, and He questioned them, saying, "Who do the people say that I am?" ...
- 28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.[G4336] 29 And while He was praying,[G4336] the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing [became] white [and] gleaming.
- [Luk 11:1 NASB] 1 It happened that while Jesus was praying[G4336] in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray[G4336] just as John also taught his disciples."
- [Luk 22:41, 44 NASB] 41 And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and [began] to pray,[G4336] ...
- 44 And being in agony He was praying[G4336] very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
I see you completely ignored my post showing you that there are MANY words that have different meanings.
You ALSO claimed that Pray and Ask were NOT synonyms - but you are WRONG.
From Thesaurus.com . . .
pray
verb: plead; call upon for help, answer
Synonyms for pray
ask
beseech
recite
urge
adjure
appeal
brace
crave
entreat
implore
importune
invoke
petition
request
say
solicit
sue
supplicate
commune with
cry for
You're done here . . .
Yes, because praying is asking of God. Thus all praying is asking.
But all asking, is not praying. This is a basic fallacy and most understand this.
All dogs have four legs, but not all creatures with four legs are dogs.
I mean, this is really easy stuff. I realize you're digging in, but you really have no leg to stand on (pun intended).
Nor did I say you did. But you did say all asking is praying. And you're still wrong about that.
And ALL you have given me are your opinions.
On the other hand - I have employed a Greek Lexicon, a respected collegiate Dictionary and a Thesaurus to prove my position.
Debates are about presenting FACTS - not opinions.
If you can't present the facts - move out of the way and let someone else give it a try . . .
Actually - I'm not because I didn't say that.
I said that praying is asking - and I have PROVEN it with no less than THREE scholarly sources . . .
Game.
Set.
MATCH.
Jesus prayed in EVERY one of those verses because He was asking something of somebody.
Maybe BOTH of you need to take a course in rudimentary English . . .
You said asking someone to pray for you is the same as praying to them. I think you now realize how silly that was.
All praying is asking, but not all asking is praying. Game set match. Now I'm curious what I've won!
I guess just an argument.
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History proves those things were used by pagans before there were any Christians, same as it proves "Easter" was observed before Jesus came.
And the mitre evolved until it looks like Dagon's headgear. Simply Google dagon to see it for yourself.
You cannot escape "facts". They're stubborn things, & won't vanish at your whim.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
A few questions to provoke thought and to re-direct attention to the Scriptures, and then I will bow out.
Not asking fellow believers to join in and pray to God for something, sir.
The pattern we find for prayer is often called "The Lord's Prayer", and it is found in Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4.
The Lord Jesus gave us this pattern when the disciples asked Him to teach them to pray.
Do you know of another passage that gives believers any other pattern to follow?
There is no example in Scripture giving believers any other way than that.
It says we are to make our requests known to God.
Outside of that, I cannot even find a warrant for asking other believers who are still living to pray for us, but it's become commonplace today.
I believe the support for this is here:
" Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." ( Matthew 18:19 ).
So, my question(s) to you ( out of curiosity ) would be, where did the Roman Catholic tradition of making prayer to those other than God, come from?
Do you see anywhere in God's word that believers have been given leave to do that, or did it originate from somewhere else?
The subject is praying to God versus praying to someone else...
Not asking fellow believers to join in and pray to God for something, sir.
The pattern we find for prayer is often called "The Lord's Prayer", and it is found in Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4.
The Lord Jesus gave us this pattern when the disciples asked Him to teach them to pray.
Do you know of another passage that gives believers any other pattern to follow?
Regardless, why ask a person who is no longer with us, to pray for us, since as believers in Christ we are commanded to pray to the Father on the behalf of the Son ( John 14:13-14, John 16:23 )?
There is no example in Scripture giving believers any other way than that.
It says we are to make our requests known to God.
Outside of that, I cannot even find a warrant for asking other believers who are still living to pray for us, but it's become commonplace today.
I believe the support for this is here:
" Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." ( Matthew 18:19 ).
So, my question(s) to you ( out of curiosity ) would be, where did the Roman Catholic tradition of making prayer to those other than God, come from?
Do you see anywhere in God's word that believers have been given leave to do that, or did it originate from somewhere else?
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"But all asking, is not praying. This is a basic fallacy and most understand this. "
All asking is praying. Comes from latin word for entreat(asking) PRECARI.
"Asking someone to pray for you is not the same as praying to them. Surely you understand this."
Surely you heard of google.
If you're folks understood we don't worship dead folks this would not be a issue. It wasn't for a thousands of years its just a school yard cheap shot.
Genesis 12
10And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land. 11And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon: 12Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive. 13Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
I pray thee, thou art my sister
This does not mean Abram is worshipping his wife.
Sure the word PRAY has picked up a magical religious meaning thanks USA.
But even in NON ENGLISH languages this STUPID argument falls apart. You won't hear this stupid debate.
Jesus Christ was not an American with a NASB falling out the sky.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
I was afraid to post this for fear some here might just burst a blood vessel, but in England (where proper English is spoken), they refer to their magistrates (judges) as, "Your worship."
Correct.
Why would we ask the dead to pray for us? Why not pray the Lord's prayer and ask our Father? Why not trust what God tells us...that the Holy Spirit prays for us?
As for saints, all believers are saints. There is no special thing about one church making a declaration regarding certain people and calling them saints. Indeed, I doubt some of the declared saints are actually in heaven, but that is for God to know and me to not be concerned for those folks are dead.
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