The parable of the lost sheep and the goats.

[Ben1445]

Can somebody give me a reference for this often quoted parable?
My point here is that by mixing two different teachings, we are coming up with new doctrine.

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 25:31-46 [ESV]
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


1. The "sheep" on his right ... go on to "eternal life".
2. The "goats" on his left ... go on to "eternal punishment".

So "Who are the SHEEP?"
Just how "mixed" is the teaching and how "new" is the doctrine, really?

 

[Ben1445]

Matthew 25:31-46 [ESV]
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


1. The "sheep" on his right ... go on to "eternal life".
2. The "goats" on his left ... go on to "eternal punishment".

So "Who are the SHEEP?"
Just how "mixed" is the teaching and how "new" is the doctrine, really?

In which verse are they called lost?

 

[atpollard]

In which verse are they called lost?

In Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

You are the only one that I heard call it "lost sheep and the goats". For the record, the ESV calls that section "The Final Judgement" and the KJV calls it "The Judgement".

When one talks of the "sheep and goats", there are only a few verses that speak of "sheep and goats" and Matthew 25 is the most popular:

[Heb 11:37 ESV] 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated--

[Gen 30:32 ESV] 32 let me pass through all your flock today, removing from it every speckled and spotted sheep and every black lamb, and the spotted and speckled among the goats, and they shall be my wages.

[1Sa 25:2 ESV] 2 And there was a man in Maon whose business was in Carmel. The man was very rich; he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats. He was shearing his sheep in Carmel.

[Eze 34:17 ESV] 17 "As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats.

[Mat 25:32-33 ESV] 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

 

[Ben1445]

In Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

You are the only one that I heard call it "lost sheep and the goats". For the record, the ESV calls that section "The Final Judgement" and the KJV calls it "The Judgement".

That is because there is no parable of the lost sheep and the goats.

When one talks of the "sheep and goats", there are only a few verses that speak of "sheep and goats" and Matthew 25 is the most popular:

[Heb 11:37 ESV] 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated--

[Gen 30:32 ESV] 32 let me pass through all your flock today, removing from it every speckled and spotted sheep and every black lamb, and the spotted and speckled among the goats, and they shall be my wages.

[1Sa 25:2 ESV] 2 And there was a man in Maon whose business was in Carmel. The man was very rich; he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats. He was shearing his sheep in Carmel.

[Eze 34:17 ESV] 17 "As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats.

[Mat 25:32-33 ESV] 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

So you have just shown yourself that the teaching of the lost sheep and goats is a hobbled together teaching and is not found anywhere in Scripture as a teaching.

 

[Paleouss]

Can somebody give me a reference for this often quoted parable?
My point here is that by mixing two different teachings, we are coming up with new doctrine

Greetings to you Ben. I hope your week has been a good one.

Since I have been away for a bit, I'm not clear as to the point you are driving toward. To add to what atpollard has presented...

1. Matthew 25:31-46: talks about sheep and goats.
2. Matthew 18:11-14: equates the term "lost" (Matt 18:11) with the story of "sheep" (Matt 18:12-14).

As atpollard stated "You are the only one that I heard call it "lost sheep and the goats".

So I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "we are coming up with new doctrine"? What 'new doctrine' do you think is being created by the two groupings of text, above?

Peace to you brother

 

[Van]

Great Thread, Ben1445!

First, when seeking to understand a parable, we must be careful not to assume that a metaphor in one parable means the same thing in another parable.

For example, Jesus refers to lost sheep in Matthew 10:6 and 15:24, but in Matthew 25:33-34, Jesus refers to sheep as those who will inherit the kingdom. So applying the meaning of sheep from one parable to another is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

One well known but completely false claim is that people during their lives are already sheep (those who have been designated to inherit the kingdom) or goats (those already designated to enter the eternal fire).

Actual study reveals that when Jesus separates the "sheep" from the "goats" is after the second coming, not before His first!

The actual biblical doctrinal dispute, is whether people were chosen for salvation before creation, or whether people are chosen during their physical lives based on crediting their faith as righteousness. You will note that poster after poster does not clearly state which view he or she is trying to support. I, of course, hold to the doctrine that people are chosen for salvation through their faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Ben1445]

Greetings to you Ben. I hope your week has been a good one.

It has, thank you. I got more done than I expected to.

Since I have been away for a bit, I'm not clear as to the point you are driving toward.

In separating the sheep and the goats there are two categories, lost and saved.
In the lost sheep, the sheep is not saved until found. That puts him in the lost category until he is found. There is no goat in this parable to indicate the extra lost, as in the lost who Jesus has no interest in finding, nor should there be unless it is necessary to show that there are those people.
It would be more accurate to put the lost sheep in conjunction with the dogs. That is what Jesus did(Matt 15). But in the same instance, Jesus also showed His interest in the dogs. So out of the discussion once again is any opportunity in parable to say that the lost are able to be divided into temporarily lost and hopelessly lost.
If you are going to be thorough in your approach to parables and continue on your course, you must account for found sheep, lost sheep, goats, dogs, wolves, and the list gets longer if we go beyond animals. There are also workers in the vineyard, the ones who labor in the day and the ones who kill the heir. Both are laborers in the vineyard so clearly the teachings must overlap. That would mean that the laborers in the vineyard who killed the heir would receive a penny at the end of the day the same as the laborers who bore the heat of the day.
Clearly, this approach to parables and teachings is lacking wisdom in application.

To add to what atpollard has presented...

1. Matthew 25:31-46: talks about sheep and goats.

Yet nowhere in this teaching is mentioned lost sheep.

2. Matthew 18:11-14: equates the term "lost" (Matt 18:11) with the story of "sheep" (Matt 18:12-14).

And nowhere here are goats mentioned.

As atpollard stated "You are the only one that I heard call it "lost sheep and the goats".

That is because I have never, nor have any of you seen the lost sheep and goat parable. It is just a pillar for those who fail to recognize that there are only lost sheep and found sheep OR sheep and goats. There is able to be a transfer from one to the other within each group because we are made new creatures. Being absolutely different than what we were is to be expected when we come from sin to become heirs with Christ.
I deny both of your references as being the parable of the lost sheep and the goats. Please let me know if you find it.

So I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "we are coming up with new doctrine"? What 'new doctrine' do you think is being created by the two groupings of text, above?

Sheep from the foundation of the world.
My faith from the foundation of the world.
Christ was before the foundation of the world. Sheep were not.
We are none of these things until we trust Christ’s works and accept His gift. Until then we are not in the salvation queue waiting for divine revelation to come shatter our ignorance anymore than every other person.

I do know where we are headed with this and I will not be able to respond to anyone for about a week so I’ll try to get back if I can. Please excuse my absence.

Peace to you brother

 

[kyredneck]

@Ben1445, methinks you're waaay overthinking a parable that doesn't exist.

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445, methinks you're waaay overthinking a parable that doesn't exist.

But I hear about it so often here. I want to know if it’s really in the Bible or if someone has just put together a really bad topical outline.
It is not overthinking. It is paying attention to exegesis and recognizing a problem with overlapping parables that are not meant to be overlapped.
A little “overthinking” might do you some good.

 

[Reformed]

In the Bible, besides focusing on them solely as animals, are sheep and goats representative of any specific thing?

When used in Old Testament metaphor, "sheep" almost always refers to God's covenant people.

Psalm 74:1; 78:52; 79:13; 95:7

God's covenant people are sometimes referred to as a sheep that has gone astray or is lost (Psalm 119:176), but even in that passage the lost sheep refers to himself as "Your servant".

"Sheep" are referred to as something that God seeks out for good. This is never said about goats (Ezekiel 34:11-12).

In Old Testament metaphor goats are used in sin offerings (Leviticus 16).

These distinctions carry over into the New Testament (Matthew 25:32-33).

Of course, John 10:11 makes it clear that Jesus is the good shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep.

So, outside of Matthew 25, while there is not a specific parable that Jesus spoke about sheep and goats, the distinction between sheep (redeemed) and goats (lost) is biblical.

 

[Paleouss]

Good morning Ben

Glad you got a lot done the last day of our conversation. I, myself, was stuck at Walmart with an uncooperative truck. Had it towed. Thank God for tow trucks.

In separating the sheep and the goats there are two categories, lost and saved.

Let me be a little more precise here. The two categories of (a) sheep, and (b) goats don't seem to equate to "lost and saved", as you suggest. This brings in the notion of the word "lost" that you seemed to object. Since the word "lost" is not in the Matthew parable, I'll try to exclude the word when speaking about the Matthew 25 parable.

In Matt 25, the sheep are referred to as the "righteous" (Matt 25:37). So one of the two categories should be, (a) the righteous. How the parable describes these righteous, i.e., sheep, is that they gave the King food when he was hungry, clothed Him when he was naked, etc. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that they 'served Him', i.e., they were his servants. They are His own.

Now, we need a lot of biblical referencing if we want to understand how these sheep are righteous. But they are clearly not lost in this parable. It seems reasonable, however, to say that these "sheep" (Matt 25), if one wants to compare parables, are those previously lost sheep in Matt 18:11-14. But now they are not lost, i.e., they were found. As @Reformed said, "sheep" almost always refers to God's covenant people. Psalm 74:1; 78:52; 79:13; 95:7".

In the lost sheep, the sheep is not saved until found. That puts him in the lost category until he is found. There is no goat in this parable to indicate the extra lost, as in the lost who Jesus has no interest in finding, nor should there be unless it is necessary to show that there are those people.

I agree that in the lost sheep parable, i.e., in Matt 18:11-14, that the sheep are lost until found. In looking at comparables...

(a) Sheep already in the flock (Matt 18) = sheep on the right (Matt 25)
(b) Lost sheep (Matt 18) = goats (Matt 25)

However, this (above) isn't completely accurate because those sheep in Matt 18 haven't heard the gospel yet and the ones in Matt 25 have (this is inferred by me). So...

(A) Sheep already in the flock (Matt 18) that we infer have heard the gospel = sheep on the right (Matt 25)
(B) Lost sheep (Matt 18) that we infer have not heard the gospel yet (the Shepard has not come looking yet) = no comparison in Matt 25.
(C) Goats (Matt 25) that we infer have heard the gospel and reject it = no comparison in Matt 18.

So I conclude this...

(1) Those sheep in Matt 25 are also the previously lost sheep in Matt 18.
(2) Those goats in Matt 25 have no equivalent in Matt 18.
(3) Matthew 25 is not really the parable of the "lost sheep and goats". At best it is the parable of the "previously lost sheep and goats". But more accurately and concisely, "it is the parable of the sheep and goats".

Peace to you brother