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The parable of the lost sheep and the goats.
- Thread starter Ben1445
- Start date
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Matthew 25:31-46 [ESV]
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
1. The "sheep" on his right ... go on to "eternal life".
2. The "goats" on his left ... go on to "eternal punishment".
So "Who are the SHEEP?"
Just how "mixed" is the teaching and how "new" is the doctrine, really?
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
1. The "sheep" on his right ... go on to "eternal life".
2. The "goats" on his left ... go on to "eternal punishment".
So "Who are the SHEEP?"
Just how "mixed" is the teaching and how "new" is the doctrine, really?
In which verse are they called lost?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
In Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
You are the only one that I heard call it "lost sheep and the goats". For the record, the ESV calls that section "The Final Judgement" and the KJV calls it "The Judgement".
When one talks of the "sheep and goats", there are only a few verses that speak of "sheep and goats" and Matthew 25 is the most popular:
[Heb 11:37 ESV] 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated--
[Gen 30:32 ESV] 32 let me pass through all your flock today, removing from it every speckled and spotted sheep and every black lamb, and the spotted and speckled among the goats, and they shall be my wages.
[1Sa 25:2 ESV] 2 And there was a man in Maon whose business was in Carmel. The man was very rich; he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats. He was shearing his sheep in Carmel.
[Eze 34:17 ESV] 17 "As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats.
[Mat 25:32-33 ESV] 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
That is because there is no parable of the lost sheep and the goats.
So you have just shown yourself that the teaching of the lost sheep and goats is a hobbled together teaching and is not found anywhere in Scripture as a teaching.
Greetings to you Ben. I hope your week has been a good one.
Since I have been away for a bit, I'm not clear as to the point you are driving toward. To add to what atpollard has presented...
1. Matthew 25:31-46: talks about sheep and goats.
2. Matthew 18:11-14: equates the term "lost" (Matt 18:11) with the story of "sheep" (Matt 18:12-14).
As atpollard stated "You are the only one that I heard call it "lost sheep and the goats".
So I'm curious, what do you mean when you say "we are coming up with new doctrine"? What 'new doctrine' do you think is being created by the two groupings of text, above?
Peace to you brother
Great Thread, Ben1445!
First, when seeking to understand a parable, we must be careful not to assume that a metaphor in one parable means the same thing in another parable.
For example, Jesus refers to lost sheep in Matthew 10:6 and 15:24, but in Matthew 25:33-34, Jesus refers to sheep as those who will inherit the kingdom. So applying the meaning of sheep from one parable to another is as bogus as a three dollar bill.
One well known but completely false claim is that people during their lives are already sheep (those who have been designated to inherit the kingdom) or goats (those already designated to enter the eternal fire).
Actual study reveals that when Jesus separates the "sheep" from the "goats" is after the second coming, not before His first!
The actual biblical doctrinal dispute, is whether people were chosen for salvation before creation, or whether people are chosen during their physical lives based on crediting their faith as righteousness. You will note that poster after poster does not clearly state which view he or she is trying to support. I, of course, hold to the doctrine that people are chosen for salvation through their faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
First, when seeking to understand a parable, we must be careful not to assume that a metaphor in one parable means the same thing in another parable.
For example, Jesus refers to lost sheep in Matthew 10:6 and 15:24, but in Matthew 25:33-34, Jesus refers to sheep as those who will inherit the kingdom. So applying the meaning of sheep from one parable to another is as bogus as a three dollar bill.
One well known but completely false claim is that people during their lives are already sheep (those who have been designated to inherit the kingdom) or goats (those already designated to enter the eternal fire).
Actual study reveals that when Jesus separates the "sheep" from the "goats" is after the second coming, not before His first!
The actual biblical doctrinal dispute, is whether people were chosen for salvation before creation, or whether people are chosen during their physical lives based on crediting their faith as righteousness. You will note that poster after poster does not clearly state which view he or she is trying to support. I, of course, hold to the doctrine that people are chosen for salvation through their faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
It has, thank you. I got more done than I expected to.
In separating the sheep and the goats there are two categories, lost and saved.
In the lost sheep, the sheep is not saved until found. That puts him in the lost category until he is found. There is no goat in this parable to indicate the extra lost, as in the lost who Jesus has no interest in finding, nor should there be unless it is necessary to show that there are those people.
It would be more accurate to put the lost sheep in conjunction with the dogs. That is what Jesus did(Matt 15). But in the same instance, Jesus also showed His interest in the dogs. So out of the discussion once again is any opportunity in parable to say that the lost are able to be divided into temporarily lost and hopelessly lost.
If you are going to be thorough in your approach to parables and continue on your course, you must account for found sheep, lost sheep, goats, dogs, wolves, and the list gets longer if we go beyond animals. There are also workers in the vineyard, the ones who labor in the day and the ones who kill the heir. Both are laborers in the vineyard so clearly the teachings must overlap. That would mean that the laborers in the vineyard who killed the heir would receive a penny at the end of the day the same as the laborers who bore the heat of the day.
Clearly, this approach to parables and teachings is lacking wisdom in application.
Yet nowhere in this teaching is mentioned lost sheep.
And nowhere here are goats mentioned.
That is because I have never, nor have any of you seen the lost sheep and goat parable. It is just a pillar for those who fail to recognize that there are only lost sheep and found sheep OR sheep and goats. There is able to be a transfer from one to the other within each group because we are made new creatures. Being absolutely different than what we were is to be expected when we come from sin to become heirs with Christ.
I deny both of your references as being the parable of the lost sheep and the goats. Please let me know if you find it.
Sheep from the foundation of the world.
My faith from the foundation of the world.
Christ was before the foundation of the world. Sheep were not.
We are none of these things until we trust Christ’s works and accept His gift. Until then we are not in the salvation queue waiting for divine revelation to come shatter our ignorance anymore than every other person.
I do know where we are headed with this and I will not be able to respond to anyone for about a week so I’ll try to get back if I can. Please excuse my absence.
But I hear about it so often here. I want to know if it’s really in the Bible or if someone has just put together a really bad topical outline.
It is not overthinking. It is paying attention to exegesis and recognizing a problem with overlapping parables that are not meant to be overlapped.
A little “overthinking” might do you some good.
In the Bible, besides focusing on them solely as animals, are sheep and goats representative of any specific thing?
When used in Old Testament metaphor, "sheep" almost always refers to God's covenant people.
Psalm 74:1; 78:52; 79:13; 95:7
God's covenant people are sometimes referred to as a sheep that has gone astray or is lost (Psalm 119:176), but even in that passage the lost sheep refers to himself as "Your servant".
"Sheep" are referred to as something that God seeks out for good. This is never said about goats (Ezekiel 34:11-12).
In Old Testament metaphor goats are used in sin offerings (Leviticus 16).
These distinctions carry over into the New Testament (Matthew 25:32-33).
Of course, John 10:11 makes it clear that Jesus is the good shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep.
So, outside of Matthew 25, while there is not a specific parable that Jesus spoke about sheep and goats, the distinction between sheep (redeemed) and goats (lost) is biblical.
When used in Old Testament metaphor, "sheep" almost always refers to God's covenant people.
Psalm 74:1; 78:52; 79:13; 95:7
God's covenant people are sometimes referred to as a sheep that has gone astray or is lost (Psalm 119:176), but even in that passage the lost sheep refers to himself as "Your servant".
"Sheep" are referred to as something that God seeks out for good. This is never said about goats (Ezekiel 34:11-12).
In Old Testament metaphor goats are used in sin offerings (Leviticus 16).
These distinctions carry over into the New Testament (Matthew 25:32-33).
Of course, John 10:11 makes it clear that Jesus is the good shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep.
So, outside of Matthew 25, while there is not a specific parable that Jesus spoke about sheep and goats, the distinction between sheep (redeemed) and goats (lost) is biblical.
Good morning Ben
Glad you got a lot done the last day of our conversation. I, myself, was stuck at Walmart with an uncooperative truck. Had it towed. Thank God for tow trucks.
In Matt 25, the sheep are referred to as the "righteous" (Matt 25:37). So one of the two categories should be, (a) the righteous. How the parable describes these righteous, i.e., sheep, is that they gave the King food when he was hungry, clothed Him when he was naked, etc. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that they 'served Him', i.e., they were his servants. They are His own.
Now, we need a lot of biblical referencing if we want to understand how these sheep are righteous. But they are clearly not lost in this parable. It seems reasonable, however, to say that these "sheep" (Matt 25), if one wants to compare parables, are those previously lost sheep in Matt 18:11-14. But now they are not lost, i.e., they were found. As @Reformed said, "sheep" almost always refers to God's covenant people. Psalm 74:1; 78:52; 79:13; 95:7".
(a) Sheep already in the flock (Matt 18) = sheep on the right (Matt 25)
(b) Lost sheep (Matt 18) = goats (Matt 25)
However, this (above) isn't completely accurate because those sheep in Matt 18 haven't heard the gospel yet and the ones in Matt 25 have (this is inferred by me). So...
(A) Sheep already in the flock (Matt 18) that we infer have heard the gospel = sheep on the right (Matt 25)
(B) Lost sheep (Matt 18) that we infer have not heard the gospel yet (the Shepard has not come looking yet) = no comparison in Matt 25.
(C) Goats (Matt 25) that we infer have heard the gospel and reject it = no comparison in Matt 18.
So I conclude this...
(1) Those sheep in Matt 25 are also the previously lost sheep in Matt 18.
(2) Those goats in Matt 25 have no equivalent in Matt 18.
(3) Matthew 25 is not really the parable of the "lost sheep and goats". At best it is the parable of the "previously lost sheep and goats". But more accurately and concisely, "it is the parable of the sheep and goats".
Peace to you brother
Glad you got a lot done the last day of our conversation. I, myself, was stuck at Walmart with an uncooperative truck. Had it towed. Thank God for tow trucks.
Let me be a little more precise here. The two categories of (a) sheep, and (b) goats don't seem to equate to "lost and saved", as you suggest. This brings in the notion of the word "lost" that you seemed to object. Since the word "lost" is not in the Matthew parable, I'll try to exclude the word when speaking about the Matthew 25 parable.
In Matt 25, the sheep are referred to as the "righteous" (Matt 25:37). So one of the two categories should be, (a) the righteous. How the parable describes these righteous, i.e., sheep, is that they gave the King food when he was hungry, clothed Him when he was naked, etc. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that they 'served Him', i.e., they were his servants. They are His own.
Now, we need a lot of biblical referencing if we want to understand how these sheep are righteous. But they are clearly not lost in this parable. It seems reasonable, however, to say that these "sheep" (Matt 25), if one wants to compare parables, are those previously lost sheep in Matt 18:11-14. But now they are not lost, i.e., they were found. As @Reformed said, "sheep" almost always refers to God's covenant people. Psalm 74:1; 78:52; 79:13; 95:7".
I agree that in the lost sheep parable, i.e., in Matt 18:11-14, that the sheep are lost until found. In looking at comparables...
(a) Sheep already in the flock (Matt 18) = sheep on the right (Matt 25)
(b) Lost sheep (Matt 18) = goats (Matt 25)
However, this (above) isn't completely accurate because those sheep in Matt 18 haven't heard the gospel yet and the ones in Matt 25 have (this is inferred by me). So...
(A) Sheep already in the flock (Matt 18) that we infer have heard the gospel = sheep on the right (Matt 25)
(B) Lost sheep (Matt 18) that we infer have not heard the gospel yet (the Shepard has not come looking yet) = no comparison in Matt 25.
(C) Goats (Matt 25) that we infer have heard the gospel and reject it = no comparison in Matt 18.
So I conclude this...
(1) Those sheep in Matt 25 are also the previously lost sheep in Matt 18.
(2) Those goats in Matt 25 have no equivalent in Matt 18.
(3) Matthew 25 is not really the parable of the "lost sheep and goats". At best it is the parable of the "previously lost sheep and goats". But more accurately and concisely, "it is the parable of the sheep and goats".
Peace to you brother
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While it could be called a parable in one sense, we do have a very interesting reference to lost sheep:
Matthew 10:5-7
King James Version
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
What is interesting is the word lost: ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
The Lord said ...
Mat 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost G622 sheep of the house of Israel.
Luk 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. G622
In view is Israel, they are the "lost sheep." Note the Lord commanding the disciples that they go only to them. That is because He is performing a partial fulfillment of prophecy which deals directly with Israel, not the world. Many miss that in the Gospels.
Israel, like the Tabernacle, was a figure, a parable for the time present. They foreshadowed the Church, the Body of Christ. What "lost" means in these verses is not that they are wandering around (as they did in the desert), but that they are in a state of destruction. Paul said of us, that we were dead in trespasses and sins, meaning we had no life (despite being physically alive).
Another important issue to keep in mind here is that the disciples are not sent out to preach the Gospel of Christ as it still remains a Mystery at this point. The "Gospel" they preach is certainly relevant to Messiah's coming, but they are not revealing the Gospel Mystery as defined by Paul, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:2-4), but preaching Christ's coming as foretold.
This word is also used to speak of another "people" in a state of destruction:
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy G622 both soul and body in hell.
As is the case of Israel when the disciples are sent unto them, those in Hell will not be destroyed in a sense of annihilation but will be in a state of destruction as Israel was (and still is, as a nation).
Not sure if that was what you were talking about or not, Ben, but thought I'd throw it into the mix.
Another subject similar to this might be the errant view of "The Lost Tribes of Israel." Some try to make other nations to be the legitimate offspring of Israel, usually ten European nations. The problem with that is this doesn't agree with Scripture. All tribes of Israel returned to the Southern Kingdom Judah, rather than "dispersed into Europe (as some hold to).
2 Chronicles 11:16
King James Version
16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the Lord God of their fathers.
God bless.
That is your training.
Righteous and unrighteous is equivalent to saved and lost respectively. The lost are not considered righteous and the saved are not considered unrighteous. Unless you have some other way of differing the categories that would cause them to be combined, I see no reason to decide that the terms are not interchangeable.
All of this assumes that when Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice,” that any sheep are His sheep and if you hear his voice you are a sheep.
When Isaiah said all we like sheep have gone astray, it means all people have gone astray like sheep do.
If you want to be picky, you might say that Isaiah was talking to Jews, but we know that not all of the Jews are righteous, even though “the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”
So...
Now you have to consider the sheep that are not what Jesus calls “MY sheep.”
Some relevant information for sure.
The lost sheep referred to were the people who the Lord had set his name on.(“My people which are called by my name,…”
They were God’s people, the Jews. To say that a lost sheep is someone who has never heard the gospel is to say that they are Jewish, if we are to be consistent with Scripture.
My point, mostly, is that the Calvinist/ Reformed/ (or whatever their preference of name is) teach that a lost sheep is still a sheep or plainly, an unsaved person who is ever called a sheep must be saved at some point and the rest are goats. This is adding too much to the teaching of Scripture and has led to an exclusive gift of salvation offered to only the elect. There are several large errors in that teaching that are often overlooked because most people assume what they are hearing agrees with the Bible and with their own beliefs. The biggest problem would be letting people think that election is about salvation instead of adoption.
A byproduct of this is that you end up with big name teachers who don’t believe that anyone can know they have eternal life, contrary to what John wrote, unless they persevere. If you have to persevere, that is works salvation. If there is an exclusive group that can join, it sounds like JW’s 144,000. At the risk of getting kicked out of the BB, the tendencies of Calvinism are cultish. There are some serious red flags for me and I like to know where the teachings come from. I have been taught about the righteous sheep, lost sheep, and goats so much by Calvinists that I figured I would ask them where they got their parable? Everyone, so far has grabbed verses from convenient places and created a topical teaching that assumes that any sheep must be elect whether lost or found.
I posed the question with some sarcasm and I am really surprised at how many people think that I am expecting a single reference.
I appreciate your response. Very helpful information in it.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Parable of the lost sheep:
" And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." ( Luke 15:3-7 ).
Parable of the sheep and goats:
" When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." ( Matthew 25: 31-46 )
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I don't see how this constitutes "new doctrine", as to me, they are making mention of the same group of people...
Christ's "sheep", I.E. all that are saved.
Please allow me to give my own personal understanding of each passage, and I hope you'll see how they relate to one another.
1) In the parable of the lost sheep, the Lord Jesus is likening Himself to the shepherd ( see John 10:1-16 where He declares Himself to be the Good Shepherd ), while the "sheep" are His people. This we can readily know from all the references in which the Lord Jesus describes His disciples, those that have believed on Him and that the Father has given to Him ( John 6:65, John 17:2, etc )... as "His sheep", such as this one:
" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. " ( John 10:25-28 ).
So, in the parable of the lost sheep, He is telling us that God loves His elect so much that He's willing to go out and seek them ( and find them ) wherever they are, and rescue them from all evil, bringing them back into the fold.
2) In the parable of the sheep and goats, the "sheep" ( those who are on His right hand, a position of honor with God and are declared as "the righteous" ) are those He has saved...they are those for whom the kingdom was prepared from ( at the time of ) the foundation of the world. The "goats" ( those who are on His left hand, and declared to be cursed ), are those who have not believed on Christ, are not His elect, and were never given to Him by His Father to save.
They are those who shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is also that same everlasting punishment that is reserved for the devil and his angels.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
My friend, regardless of what you personally take offense to ( and please believe me when I say that I don't understand and speak about these things out of His word, just to cause offense to people )...
I and many others ( some even on this board ) see the the Bible declaring to all of those who have believed on Christ ( truly and from the heart ) for the forgiveness of their sins, that the reason they did believe, was because He not only chose a people to give eternal life to ( from before the foundation of the world ), but that He has secured for them a place in His house for all eternity;
A people that He loved so much, that He is not willing that any of them perish, but that all of them come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).
In addition,
What you're describing ( and it seems, getting angry over ), I don't understand for myself as an exclusive gift "offered" to only His elect...
When I read the Scriptures, I see that it is a sure and concrete promise given only to His elect.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I think that what you may not be understanding, is that what John wrote in 1 John is evidential, not "conditional".
Perseverance in the faith is yet another necessary evidence that shows that someone is one of the saved ( i.e is one of God's elect ).
This is included along with belief of God's every word, obeying His commandments, etc.
A faith that perseveres to the end is a faith that clings to the Lord through everything that this life throws at us, as believers.
As His people, we can actually know that we are saved...
But unless a person begins to exhibit those evidences over time and as they grow in grace and knowledge, how then can they know for sure that they truly are saved?
My friend, there are many people ( especially today ), who go about thinking that they are saved... when the fact of the matter is, they don't have the biblical evidences that God has said should be present in a person that is truly saved.
Even God's own children start out small in both faith and in bearing true spiritual fruit ( see Galatians 5 for a list of these ) and can appear as carnal and as not being saved ( the Corinthians were a good example of this ).
They can also doubt their own salvation, sometimes greatly, as they grow.
But over time and by the power of His Spirit, they begin to overcome the power of their own wicked flesh and bear true spiritual fruit...
It's a product of His working in us and through us.
Yes, Ben,
Contrary to many of the popular teachers and preachers out there today, Christ's sheep can know that they are saved.
But it's based on evidence and spiritual fruit...
Not on a list of "conditions that must be met" that, in effect, earn us a place at His table.
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I’m not sure why you think that I am angry. Perhaps you are adding your own emotions into my words.
I have been enjoying this conversation and have not even begun to feel any anger or even frustration. Again, I suggest that you check your own emotions as you read. You clearly don’t know me at all.