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The Particular Mercy of God

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ad finitum

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God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. Acts 17:27
AustinC said:
Note that Paul never mentions that anyone found God. In all their blind groping, they never found God.

The whole chapter contradicts your claim. People did seek and they did find.

Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

Are you suggesting that Paul (and thus the Holy Spirit) are lying??? Are you claiming that this verse isn't telling the truth because that's not how it works??? Would Paul relay God's commandment to all people everywhere to come to a change of mind if it were something that's actually impossible??? The rest of the chapter disproves that idea!!! LOOK:

When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some began to mock him, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this topic.” At that, Paul left the Areopagus. But some joined him and believed, including Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others who were with them. Acts 17:32-34

This whole episode at Athens precisely and fully illustrates, "that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us." Paul says this as it is actually happening!
 

thomas15

Well-Known Member
Austin all that a person has to do is read the LBCF or your DoG to see that what I said about calvinism is correct. You can call it a strawman all you wish but the truth is still the truth. Why you continue to follow that theology is beyond understanding because it does not comport with scripture unless you twist it or change the meaning of words.

You will most likely claim that I hate the truth or do not understand calvinism or some other such canard but the reality is that I love the truth which is the bible not a man made theology.

I couldn't agree with you more. Being born again is so simple just read and believe the words of the Bible, accept it as truth, let the chips fall where they may with those who either don't believe the actual words of the Bible or believe just select passages. So many want to have it their way on their terms and will claim that simple faith in the risen Christ is not enough.
 

SovereignGrace

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Let's take a look at Romans 10:3-17.

For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The word of Christ is what brings faith. People hear the word. God makes them alive, rather than be dead, and God implants that word of faith within them. This is a particular work of God. God does not do this for everyone. He does this only to those whom he shows mercy.

Let's go on to Paul's treatise.

Romans 10:18-21 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Notice the Sovereign will of God. God tells us that it is not seeking of men and choosing of men that leads to salvation. It is God, showing himself to those who don't ask, who saves.

Can God be any clearer to you when He tells you point blank:
"I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

Paul continues the argument in Romans 11:2,4-6.

God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


Now, I anticipate you will claim that Paul is only speaking to Jews, not Gentiles. Your claim would be wrong.

In Romans 11:11,15-20,24-27 we read:

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!

Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the othersand now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”


I ask this: Can a human graft themselves in to the tree of life by their own free will?
No! By no means!!!
God cut us off from a wild and useless olive tree and God grafted us in.

Now, you can read and see this for yourself. Throw away the godless notion that you chose God by your free will. That philosophy is never expressed by God in his written word. Stop trying to give credit to humans and thereby taking away credit from God.
And one person thinks this post is “funny”. O O Quite telling. O O
 

Iconoclast

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Site Supporter
I ask a simple question that could be answered with a yes or no.

Allow me to ask it again:
Having confessed my need for a Savior, having place my faith and trust in Christ Crucified but denying some or all of TULIP, including but not limited to a limited atonement, am I based on your understanding condemned to everlasting hell?

I do not do yes or no questions, which part of my answer was unclear to you?
I am glad that you openly profess your need to trust the Lord Jesus for salvation.
next you say;

"having place my faith and trust in Christ Crucified"...
Thomas, if it is a God-given saving faith, that you exercised af the time you were regenerated,as an instrumentality to lay hold of Christ that would be great.

If you are stating the YOU HAD FAITH INSIDE YOU,AND YOU PLACED IT in Jesus....i would be sceptical as I would when A RC says they are saved because they have faith in their baptism and the Eucharist.

Such a 'faith" could be a mere human trust, worked up in the flesh.
Scripture speaks of many who..."believed in vain"
1cor15:
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you,
unless ye have believed in vain.

You asked me, that is how i think about it.
 

Iconoclast

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"thomas15,

I couldn't agree with you more. Being born again is so simple just read and believe the words of the Bible, accept it as truth,

Many believe being born again is a supernatural work of God. Not just a simple gaining of information.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
On and on folks, scripture says God credited Abraham's faith, the Calvinist advocate claims Abraham's faith was given to him (instilled via irresistible grace).
Did anyone say Abraham (or anyone else) conjures us "saving faith" which God then recognizes? Nope - thus another red herring.

So you agree with me?

Here are the two options:

1) Abraham had his own personal faith that God considered righteous.

2) Abraham had faith given to him by the grace of God, which God considered righteous.

Which one is it, Van?
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Austin all that a person has to do is read the LBCF or your DoG to see that what I said about calvinism is correct. You can call it a strawman all you wish but the truth is still the truth. Why you continue to follow that theology is beyond understanding because it does not comport with scripture unless you twist it or change the meaning of words.

You will most likely claim that I hate the truth or do not understand calvinism or some other such canard but the reality is that I love the truth which is the bible not a man made theology.
I have no idea what the LBCF or the DoG is.

All people, including you, need to do is read and observe the whole of scripture.

Whenever you fall on Calvin, it is your strawman and a sure tell tale sign you have lost the debate.
 

Iconoclast

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Silverhair,

[QUOTE]For Calvinism to work you have to believe that God has removed all your ability to move toward Him when you hear the gospel message or see the wonders of creation. [/QUOTE]

No...a falsehood.

[QUOTE]You have to hope that your one of the lucky chosen ones [/QUOTE]

God does not use luck????This is total rubbish:Cautious

because if your not then you are condemned for no other reason than you did not get picked.

Another foul blame God post.:Cautious These non elect have no sin that sends them to hell? Do you stay awake at night inventing these things:(


Your faith is not yours as it had to be given to you by God so you can not even be sure if it is real.[/QUOTE]

When God gives it we use it, then it is ours.

As a Calvinist you cannot honestly say to anyone that God loves them and wants to saves them.


Why would you want to say such a thing, when in fact it is dishonest? the Apostles never said anything close to this anywhere in scripture?
God loves sinners in Christ. Jesus came to save sinners.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world
to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Nowhere do they say God loves you and Christ died for you to indiscriminate persons.


If your Calvinism is the gospel as many of you claim then why not tell people what you really believe.

I literally do that every day, why is that sound strange to you?

Explain the DoG clearly and see the reaction you will get.

I do it all the time, not a problem.:Thumbsup

I have listened to a number of your Calvinist preachers when they are expounding on the gospel and it's: if you believe, if you will trust in Christ Jesus but that is not Calvinism is it.

Of course, they do. They urge people to flee to Christ all the time. Unbelievers are effectually drawn to saving faith and become believers.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I have no idea what the LBCF or the DoG is.

All people, including you, need to do is read and observe the whole of scripture.

Whenever you fall on Calvin, it is your strawman and a sure tell tale sign you have lost the debate.

Now it is clear that you are being disingenuous when you say you do not know what the LBCF or DoG are.
LBCF London Baptist Confession of Faith
DoG Doctrines of Grace

Those are the go to supports for your Calvinism.

I do read and believe the whole of scripture but you seem to have a problem with any text that is presented to you if you cannot fit it into your theory of salvation.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. Acts 17:27


The whole chapter contradicts your claim. People did seek and they did find.

Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

Are you suggesting that Paul (and thus the Holy Spirit) are lying??? Are you claiming that this verse isn't telling the truth because that's not how it works??? Would Paul relay God's commandment to all people everywhere to come to a change of mind if it were something that's actually impossible??? The rest of the chapter disproves that idea!!! LOOK:

When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some began to mock him, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this topic.” At that, Paul left the Areopagus. But some joined him and believed, including Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others who were with them. Acts 17:32-34

This whole episode at Athens precisely and fully illustrates, "that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us." Paul says this as it is actually happening!
Again, you are desperately trying to conjure up something not there and not taught by God. These verses are not supporting your supposition.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Now it is clear that you are being disingenuous when you say you do not know what the LBCF or DoG are.
LBCF London Baptist Confession of Faith
DoG Doctrines of Grace

Those are the go to supports for your Calvinism.

I do read and believe the whole of scripture but you seem to have a problem with any text that is presented to you if you cannot fit it into your theory of salvation.
A perfect example of the strawmen you create for yourself. I am aware of the London Confession, but I have never read it in whole. I also have never read the doctrines of grace, unless you mean the Sola's.
In any case, the doctrine I have is from reading the Bible, not from reading books written by various persons from the past. I know that blows your prejudice out of the water, which must be really hard for you to wrap your mind around.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Silverhair,

[QUOTE]For Calvinism to work you have to believe that God has removed all your ability to move toward Him when you hear the gospel message or see the wonders of creation.

No...a falsehood.

[QUOTE]You have to hope that your one of the lucky chosen ones [/QUOTE]

God does not use luck????This is total rubbish:Cautious



Another foul blame God post.:Cautious These non elect have no sin that sends them to hell? Do you stay awake at night inventing these things:(
[/QUOTE]

Iconoclast you really have to start reading the post. It is not God that has to be lucky you calvinists have to be.

What I am saying is based on you Doctrines of Grace and your calvinist idea of what God being sovereign means. Calvinists have decided to add their own meaning to words and change text in the bible so that it will fit your theology.

Why do you not just trust what the bible says? When you do that then you will not be confused by some man make theology and end up following a different gospel as Paul warned. Gal 1:6-8

Do you not even understand your own theology? If God picks out those that will be saved then what do you think happens to those He does not pick? Can they overrule God and be saved despite the fact He did not pick them? And since this all happened before creation then you cannot say it is because of their sin as none had been born yet. So yes your theology requires that God send billions to hell just because He wants to. That is the cold reality of your Calvinist theology like it or not.

But what does the bible teach, well that man has a God given free will and has the ability to follow or reject Christ Jesus but you will not accept what the bible says because it does not fit your Calvinism.

So please save your self-righteous anger for someone else.
 

SovereignGrace

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Site Supporter
Silverhair,

For Calvinism to work you have to believe that God has removed all your ability to move toward Him when you hear the gospel message or see the wonders of creation.

No...a falsehood.

You have to hope that your one of the lucky chosen ones

God does not use luck????This is total rubbish:Cautious



Another foul blame God post.:Cautious These non elect have no sin that sends them to hell? Do you stay awake at night inventing these things:(

In their schema, when all else fails play the victim card. In their view man is not the God hating rebel the Bible proclaims they are, but victims.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No...a falsehood.

[QUOTE]You have to hope that your one of the lucky chosen ones

God does not use luck????This is total rubbish:Cautious



Another foul blame God post.:Cautious These non elect have no sin that sends them to hell? Do you stay awake at night inventing these things:(
[/QUOTE]

Iconoclast you really have to start reading the post. It is not God that has to be lucky you calvinists have to be.
Luck does not exist....God's purpose does exist.

What I am saying is based on you Doctrines of Grace and your calvinist idea of what God being sovereign means. Calvinists have decided to add their own meaning to words and change text in the bible so that it will fit your theology.

Calvinism is not a man-made system that sneaks up on scripture. It is what happens when men let the scripture unfold wjhat God has offered to us. There is no choice but to own scripture. Many have come to these truths in many different ways, even before they knew the terms and the people involved in church history.


Why do you not just trust what the bible says?

I do, that is why the label Calvinist fits what I see taught.

When you do that then you will not be confused by some man made theology and end up following a different gospel as Paul warned. Gal 1:6-8[/QUOTE]

Jesus taught it, I believe it. That means I can quote Jn .1:12, and verse 13 at the same time,unlike you guys,lol


Do you not even understand your own theology?

I do, that is why I hold it.

If God picks out those that will be saved then what do you think happens to those He does not pick?

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Look up the theological term preterition.

[Can they overrule God and be saved despite the fact He did not pick them?]

The fall has left them in love with their sin. If anyone wanted to come to Jesus repent and believe, they would be saved, no one stops them, but they love sin more than God. God says no such person exists however, so men are fully responsible before God , but they will not come.


And since this all happened before creation then you cannot say it is because of their sin as none had been born yet
.

I can say that as I believe the bible teaches infralapsarianism....{God considered all men as fallen and lost, but in mercy determined to save a multitude out from fallen and condemned mankind.}
I trust our perfect and omniscient God that he is saving all he can wisely, and righteously save.


So yes your theology requires that God send billions to hell just because He wants to.

A Holy God has purposed to bring wrath upon all who remain in sin and death. The saints already in heaven know this judgment is right, DoYou???
rev.19;

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne,


Can you sing praise to God for this as those in Heaven, or are you going to inflict more blame God for man's sin posting?


That is the cold reality of your Calvinist theology like it or not.

I am showing point by point, those in scripture hold what I hold.


But what does the bible teach, well that man has a God given free will

You suggest this; but we both know the term "free will" is not anywhere in the bible. You then try to appeal to the term choose, which no one denies, but it does not address the will.

and has the ability to follow or reject Christ Jesus[/QUOTE]

False once again. Adam died in the fall. He was not wounded but slain by the fall as God said.
Man is dead in sin, a corpse [nekros].


[QUOTE]but you will not accept what the bible says because it does not fit your Calvinism.

I always accept what the bible says, because it says it.


So please save your self-righteous anger for someone else.[/QUOTE]

Not angry at all. Just not going to sit by and watch you anti cal people speak against revealed truth, and blame and disparage God, His Word, and His people.
 

Iconoclast

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In their schema, when all else fails play the victim card. In their view man is not the God hating rebel the Bible proclaims they are, but victims.
yes SG,
They cannot see it yet, so they feel an all out attack mis warranted, but we know they oppose THEMSELVES.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
A perfect example of the strawmen you create for yourself. I am aware of the London Confession, but I have never read it in whole. I also have never read the doctrines of grace, unless you mean the Sola's.
In any case, the doctrine I have is from reading the Bible, not from reading books written by various persons from the past. I know that blows your prejudice out of the water, which must be really hard for you to wrap your mind around.

Actually I do not have a prejudice regarding Calvinism. I just want people to have a biblical understanding of salvation. So we agree on another thing, the Sola's.

Since you say that you do not know the LBCF or DoG it does make me reconsider how you came to the views you support. What was the thought process that took you down the path you follow, just curious but not expecting an answer.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
yes SG,
They cannot see it yet, so they feel an all out attack mis warranted, but we know they oppose THEMSELVES.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Some day you will open your eyes and see just how horrific your theology is. But you will not see it because you do not want to look to deeply at it.
When people that are not inside your theology can tell you more about it then you know then you should realize that you do not even understand your own theology. But then again perhaps your pride will not let you see the truth.
 

Iconoclast

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Some day you will open your eyes and see just how horrific your theology is. But you will not see it because you do not want to look to deeply at it.
When people that are not inside your theology can tell you more about it then you know then you should realize that you do not even understand your own theology. But then again perhaps your pride will not let you see the truth.
this is just bluster,no substance.
You have no scriptural response
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Some day you will open your eyes and see just how horrific your theology is. But you will not see it because you do not want to look to deeply at it.
When people that are not inside your theology can tell you more about it then you know then you should realize that you do not even understand your own theology. But then again perhaps your pride will not let you see the truth.

God has opened the eyes of his children so that his children know they were mercifully adopted and ransomed at a steep price, the death of God's only Son. We know that it is nothing that we did to deserve God's act of ransom for us in particular. We know this because the Bible clearly tells us.

I am sorry if you do not yet see the debt you have to Christ alone.
 
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