The Particular Mercy of God

[Iconoclast]

Are those on this board that argue in favor of the reformed Calvinist doctrine of election unto salvation and state that those those who are not convinced have no understanding even though they (the non-Calvinists) are trusting in the cross of Christ, are those (the Calvinists on BB) themselves members of the this special elect class? If they are, how do they know this?

Are those on this board that are trusting in Christ (as per John 1:12) but believe in unlimited atonement and/or allow for some free will in accepting Christ, are those condemned to everlasting hell with the unbelievers?

Is belief in TULIP a condition for salvation?

Is denial of some or all of TULIP by an individual now declared disqualified for salvation regardless of how much that person believes and confesses Christ Crucified?

Thomas..
Some are moving toward it, some are moving away from it.
God is the judge.
When people deny the trinity do they go to heaven?
Does a moralist go to heaven?
Does a person who says they believe in Jesus, but has a works gospel go?
Does a person deny the doctrines of grace 24/7 make it?
God is the judge, but I will not encourage any such person that they are in a good place.

 

[Iconoclast]

Question for you, did you do the work that would be required to make the multi post or do you just do a copy paste? I a copy paste then please give the author and link.

Not sure what you mean, but when I read things that are solid in my own reading and study I share them for whoever can profit from the same teaching.
I never learned to type correctly so I look to copy and paste often as it saves me much time.
I can say or teach the same things on my own, but I find those who have much greater gifts than I possess.
I think it is more edifying to offer the more gifted spokesmen.
At the end of post 20..I offered the source...
Sh
Work through what he offers.
List the verses it is a solid study.
If you find fault show it...I will look.
Most on here will not read anything more than 3 sentences.
I read through that three times already...
I say that to say this...We are to search out truth and not be slack.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you

But you've left out the rest of the chapter, which says,

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Which people? It's clearly not talking about the Gentiles, but Israel, which shows that there's another fact that you are ignoring - the fact that He is not only of the seed of Abraham, but also the son of Man (Matthew 8:20 and many other verses), the second man and the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) - meaning He came to represent all mankind - all the sons of Adam. He was prophesied to come through the seed of Abraham - but He is also the son of Man.

I could quote the whole book, however he speaks of "the church"...the brethren. Those who are sanctified,many sons.the children the Father gave Him...you can see it right in the whole passage.it leads to the seed of Abraham...do not run out of the chapter stay there and read it.

 

[Silverhair]

Indeed, everyone's unbelief condemns them. Romans 3, No one seeks after God, not even one.

Austin I have seen you use Rom 3 a number of times so I thought I would just deal with that.

One of God’s purposes in revealing Himself in Creation and history is that people would seek Him. Rom_1:18-20 While we know that man will try to avoid the truth it is out there and thus we really have no excuse. Denial does not make it go away.

So the question is does God intend for man to seek Him? Well the answer is yes, we see this in scripture.
Act 17:24-28 the relevant verse is 27
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

And again through the prophet Isaiah we find God is reaching out to us.
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

What is the condition we are told is required, faith
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Christ Jesus even tells us to come to Him so we know that it is possible for us to do so.
Joh 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

 

[AustinC]

Austin I have seen you use Rom 3 a number of times so I thought I would just deal with that.

One of God’s purposes in revealing Himself in Creation and history is that people would seek Him. Rom_1:18-20 While we know that man will try to avoid the truth it is out there and thus we really have no excuse. Denial does not make it go away.

So the question is does God intend for man to seek Him? Well the answer is yes, we see this in scripture.
Act 17:24-28 the relevant verse is 27
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

And again through the prophet Isaiah we find God is reaching out to us.
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

What is the condition we are told is required, faith
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Christ Jesus even tells us to come to Him so we know that it is possible for us to do so.
Joh 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

Silverhair, the only statement not spoken to the covenant people of God is your quote from Paul's discourse in Athens. The others are all about the chosen people seeking God. Therefore those verses do not make any point for you.
But, let's address the statement in Athens. Note that Paul never mentions that anyone found God. In all their blind groping, they never found God. The evidence is in the statue to the unknown God. This fits with Romans 1 where Paul tells us that rebellious man always substitutes God for a created thing. In fact, free will philosophy is a substitution that rejects God's Supreme authority to act as He so wills while promoting the authority of men to choose their own god made in their image.

So, even the speech at Mars Hill doesn't support your contention.

God has mercy on whom he has mercy. His mercy is particular.

 

[Silverhair]

Not sure what you mean, but when I read things that are solid in my own reading and study I share them for whoever can profit from the same teaching.
I never learned to type correctly so I look to copy and paste often as it saves me much time.
I can say or teach the same things on my own, but I find those who have much greater gifts than I possess.
I think it is more edifying to offer the more gifted spokesmen.
At the end of post 20..I offered the source...
Sh
Work through what he offers.
List the verses it is a solid study.
If you find fault show it...I will look.
Most on here will not read anything more than 3 sentences.
I read through that three times already...
I say that to say this...We are to search out truth and not be slack.

Not sure what you mean, but when I read things that are solid in my own reading and study I share them for whoever can profit from the same teaching.
I never learned to type correctly so I look to copy and paste often as it saves me much time.
I can say or teach the same things on my own, but I find those who have much greater gifts than I possess.
I think it is more edifying to offer the more gifted spokesmen.
At the end of post 20..I offered the source...
Sh
Work through what he offers.
List the verses it is a solid study.
If you find fault show it...I will look.
Most on here will not read anything more than 3 sentences.
I read through that three times already...
I say that to say this...We are to search out truth and not be slack.

Did download the posts. Say they are be John Brown. I am not inclined to read through material like this as I just see a lack of argument and hoping that the number of verses will just overwhelm you. I have found that many times when I have slogged through the verses listed they did not really make a strong case.
I will try to work my way through but it will take a while.

I can agree with the not typing part. I type with two fingers & thumb. Not fast but better than nothing.

 

[Silverhair]

“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:11 (KJV 1900)

Dave you can keep repeating that line all you want but it does not help you. God has given us the ability to seek Him and the bible shows this. You just have to be willing to look past your Calvinism. Remember the bible was here before Calvinism and it will be here long after Calvinism is gone.
Your foundation must be scripture but not scripture read through the filter of Calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, the only statement not spoken to the covenant people of God is your quote from Paul's discourse in Athens. The others are all about the chosen people seeking God. Therefore those verses do not make any point for you.
But, let's address the statement in Athens. Note that Paul never mentions that anyone found God. In all their blind groping, they never found God. The evidence is in the statue to the unknown God. This fits with Romans 1 where Paul tells us that rebellious man always substitutes God for a created thing. In fact, free will philosophy is a substitution that rejects God's Supreme authority to act as He so wills while promoting the authority of men to choose their own god made in their image.

So, even the speech at Mars Hill doesn't support your contention.

God has mercy on whom he has mercy. His mercy is particular.

Austin I am really surprised that you have so little regard for the word of God. You must think that God is just being disingenuous when He speaks about anything that does not fit your Calvinist view.

I note you say the verses refer to covenant people of God. So from that are we to take it that all those people are saved because they are in a covenant with God or that none of them can be saved? Your choice.
Do you really think that God does not reward those that seek Him? Or do you think that only those pre-selected can seek Him?

>>Note that Paul never mentions that anyone found God. In all their blind groping, they never found God.<<

Austin you seem so lost in your Calvinism that you find it impossible to accept what scripture says if it does not fit within your Calvinist view.

You quote Rom 3:10-18 all the time and are indignant when anyone questions your view of said text. It has been pointed out to you more than once that your understanding of said text is in error but to no avail. All this shows is that you have a very selective approach to your understanding of scripture.

When God says He wants people to seek Him then I believe He wants people to seek Him. If it were not possible for people to seek and find Him then why the gospel, not much point to then right.

Where I see the real difference between us is that God has given me a free will that allowed me to evaluate the gospel message and the other evidence that we have as to the truth of scripture and based on that to accept or reject faith in Christ Jesus. For you on the other hand no such ability is provided for. You were determined to trust that you were saved based on nothing. By your theology you were regenerated/saved before you even heard the gospel and your faith had to be given to you so you could believe.

Austin you do seem to be sincere but I really do believe that you are wrong in your understanding of salvation.

 

[ad finitum]

But, let's address the statement in Athens. Note that Paul never mentions that anyone found God. In all their blind groping, they never found God.

The passage contradicts this. It helps if you read the rest of the chapter. These heathen asked Paul about God. That's called "seeking". When people are seeking God, He will send them a messenger with the good news. And behold, some of those who sought God and listened to His messenger, believed.

Acts 17:34

But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
​

 

[1689Dave]

Let's not quote anything out of context. It's Romans 3:11-18. These are quotes from the Old Testament. What is the context of those quotes? If we examine those quotes in their Old Testament context, we can rightly interpret what Paul is trying to say. We are compelled to assume that Paul is not quoting out of context, but expects his readers to understand the context of his Old Testament references.

We can ask ourselves, is that the interpretive procedure that Calvinist apologists utilized before quoting Romans 3:11 in isolation? What do you think?

These are quotes from Psalms 14 and 53 and Isaiah 59:1-17. If you read them, you discover that they're not talking about unbelievers but rather people of God who have become faithless to the point where they can no longer see God in evidence, so that as in Psalm 14:1, it says literally "No God". As a result, they (that is all Israelites who fall away to this extent) persecute the poor and devour the generation of the righteous (Psalm 14). The presences of the righteous in this context tells us the the "none" is not talking about them, and thus the inference that "none" is referring to all humanity is incorrect. Just read Isaiah 59:1-17. The people who are doing this are Israelites, the chosen people of God. They are not gentiles. Paul makes the point that gentiles are not different in their capacity to sink to this level, where they no longer see God in evidence, and so take advantage of people thinking there will be no consequences to them in pursuing their desires. The "none" refers to all the people who fall into this category described in (Psalm 14:1).

It's our duty as Bible students to know the context of Paul's references in the Old Testament. If we don't do that, we will misinterpret what he's saying.

Let's move on......

 

[MB]

I point you to Romans 9.

It is the passage that changed this former free will Arminian's mind. It takes massive mental gymnastics to get around what Paul tells us. So, I just accepted what is said and thus accept that God shows particular mercy to those he chooses and he does not show mercy to the rest. It is a mystery we give to God, yet Paul taught it by inspiration of God so we cannot just ignore it and teach what we would like God to do from our perspective.

Just about every Calvinist I've met here was freewill to begin with. Something always happens and in my opinion what that is they have been turned by Calvinist seeking to destroy what they have already learned. Because these peoples faith isn't very strong they change there minds and become Calvinist. They change there minds because they waver in there own faith. Paul talks about them. Someone twisted the scriptures for you at first and now you know how and do it for your self. You need to get back to your first love.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Austin you wrote:

>>Second, you misunderstand the term "God is not a respecter of men." This means God is not impressed with any human being bases upon their self-righteousness. This means that God's choice is a mystery to us.<<

I do have to question your assertion that God’s choice is a mystery, that is just the Calvinist way of avoiding the question. God has been quite clear as to the requirements for salvation, it is Faith in His son. Joh 3:16-18 Paul even shows us the steps that bring that about Rom 10:14-15. And if you were not sure about why someone would be open to the gospel message well the Holy Spirit is the answer Jon 16:8-9.

So you see God has made in abundantly clear in scripture both the way and the means of salvation.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So here we see Justification explained. What can we know by these verses?

1] It is apart form the Law

2] It is through faith in Christ Jesus

3] It is for all men

4] It is by the grace of God

5] It was accomplished at great cost to God

It has often been said “Salvation is free, but it is not cheap” The cost to God for our salvation can be summed up in three words: propitiation, redemption, and blood. My salvation cost me nothing, but it cost God the life of His son, Christ Jesus.

God has provided the way and the means we just have to accept it.

Sigh, your exegesis of Romans 3 neglects God's work in believing...even though the entire context of Paul's argument regarding justification by faith is predicated upon God's work being done in the person who has no capacity to believe outside of Jesus Christ.

We will not agree.
You love man as supreme leader in salvation or at least as equal contributor.
I love God as being supreme over all creation, guiding his creation with full authority and lovingly choosing to show mercy to whom he wills.
When you use scripture, you downplay God and lift up man. I cannot lift up man to the station you do. The Bible never does such a thing, even though you think it does.

 

[AustinC]

I looked in my bible and this is what I find when God judged Adam:
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

Don't see any mention that we all sinned in Adam, that must be in your special Calvinist bible. And would you mind quoting Rom 3:23 from that bible. This is what I have it must be different from yours
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Now I agree that we all sin and we will be judged for our sin but you have to read into scripture to get what you are saying as it is not in the bible.
We are not held responsible for the sins of others, each person will be judged for their own actions good or bad.

Eze_18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Sigh...perhaps you think Paul is not telling truth...

Romans 5:12-21 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Silverhair, you are tiresome as you continually seek to undercut the gospel.

 

[AustinC]

So you believe that you are responsible for the sin of Adam and everyone in your line of ancestry back to Adam. Show me that in scripture please.

Here is one that says we do not
Eze_18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

We all sin because we are all spiritually separated for God. God admonished Adam not to eat from the tree and even told him what the consequence would be if he did.

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Did Adam die physically, no but he did die spiritually. The relationship between him and God was broken. So your comment of all having to be born sinless is just a strawman argument.

Ezekiel is rolling in his grave at your misuse of what he wrote. Context means something and it certainly doesn't mean what you claim by cherry picking one verse from Ezekiel. Such exegesis is appalling.

 

[AustinC]

Question for you, did you do the work that would be required to make the multi post or do you just do a copy paste? I a copy paste then please give the author and link.

Silverhair, your post should be removed. It provides no value to this thread as you share no argument on the topic.

Romans 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly.Never be wise in your own sight.

 

[thomas15]

Thomas..
Some are moving toward it, some are moving away from it.
God is the judge.
When people deny the trinity do they go to heaven?
Does a moralist go to heaven?
Does a person who says they believe in Jesus, but has a works gospel go?
Does a person deny the doctrines of grace 24/7 make it?
God is the judge, but I will not encourage any such person that they are in a good place.

A quick review of this thread will reveal that you Sir are one such Calvinist that informs those who disagree with you and your doctrine that we lack understanding. Those are your exact words.

Is it safe to say that since you are fully capable of informing others of lacking understanding that may we conclude that you personally do not lack such understanding?

Using this understanding that you have and by your own words you have determined that I don't have, answer this. Having confessed my need for a Savior, having place my faith and trust in Christ Crucified but denying some or all of TULIP, including but not limited to a limited atonement, am I based on your understanding condemned to everlasting hell? Simple question I think.

 

[AustinC]

The passage contradicts this. It helps if you read the rest of the chapter. These heathen asked Paul about God. That's called "seeking". When people are seeking God, He will send them a messenger with the good news. And behold, some of those who sought God and listened to His messenger, believed.

Acts 17:34

But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
​

It's called pridefulness and curiosity regarding what they comsidered a new philosophy.

Notice that Paul spoke and then some believed. God always does the work first, which causes belief.

Acts 17:17-34 So he reasonedin the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new. So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

 

[AustinC]

Just about every Calvinist I've met here was freewill to begin with. Something always happens and in my opinion what that is they have been turned by Calvinist seeking to destroy what they have already learned. Because these peoples faith isn't very strong they change there minds and become Calvinist. They change there minds because they waver in there own faith. Paul talks about them. Someone twisted the scriptures for you at first and now you know how and do it for your self. You need to get back to your first love.
MB

All of us certainly have a will and...within the ordained permission of God, we can act upon that will. Regarding receiving mercy from God...we are literally at the mercy of God and his particular decision regarding each one of us.
God is the Supreme Judge. He alone determines whether ransom has been made or whether condemnation for sin is meted out. This is justice and either Jesus has taken our place or we stand alone in our sins before God who is perfect in his judgment.

Your ransom does not depend upon you. You are and always will be guilty as charged. Instead, your ransom depends upon whether God has given you to Jesus, who ransomed all the Father has given him.

Free will has nothing to do with salvation of your being. Indeed, the Bible tells us we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Free is not an option.

 

[MB]

All of us certainly have a will and...within the ordained permission of God, we can act upon that will. Regarding receiving mercy from God...we are literally at the mercy of God and his particular decision regarding each one of us.
God is the Supreme Judge. He alone determines whether ransom has been made or whether condemnation for sin is meted out. This is justice and either Jesus has taken our place or we stand alone in our sins before God who is perfect in his judgment.

Your ransom does not depend upon you. You are and always will be guilty as charged. Instead, your ransom depends upon whether God has given you to Jesus, who ransomed all the Father has given him.

Free will has nothing to do with salvation of your being. Indeed, the Bible tells us we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Free is not an option.

I've never claimed that my ransom depended on me. I didn't even exist When Christ paid it. Neither did you. I just accept that it is true you have to, to be saved. God is not a dictator of our trust or faith He just convinces us we need Him to live. Salvation is all of God all we can do is reject it or accept it.
MB

 

[AustinC]

I've never claimed that my ransom depended on me. I didn't even exist When Christ paid it. Neither did you. I just accept that it is true you have to, to be saved. God is not a dictator of our trust or faith He just convinces us we need Him to live. Salvation is all of God all we can do is reject it or accept it.
MB

We agree, yet I add that it is not our faith. God is the giver of faith. I have provided adequate scripture to make this point.