The Particular Mercy of God

[1689Dave]

With all due respect to you, this reasoning is a classic canard. The last sentence of your post is manifestly untrue if God foreknows before we even exist. God chooses to prepare deliverance to those whom he foreknows would seek Him. He is not forced to do this.

God didn't have to provide a destiny of deliverance for those whom He foreknew would seek Him. That fact that he does so, of His free will demonstrates His love, not our manipulation. There is no way were are controlling God in His decision to provide deliverance. God choses to do that from His own motives of Love and He made His choice before we made ours.

“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:11 (KJV 1900)

 

[MB]

Yes, I believe that we need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us so that we can be cleansed from within and through abiding in Christ (the vine) the Holy Spirit produces His fruit (when we are obedient to Him), and for that we need to be born of the Spirit of God from above...

.. and for that we need to be called first:

The Holy Spirit is the comforter not savior. The Holy spirit convicts, convinces, us of Jesus Christ who saves us

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

I don't believe that all who are called are chosen - because many refused to believe when they were called, because they loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

Only those who hear, repent, believe and submit are chosen - and they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[MB]

“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:11 (KJV 1900)

The sayings of a fool in PS 14. This is not true the same fool said there is no God.
MB

 

[Bible Scanned]

Indeed, everyone's unbelief condemns them. Romans 3, No one seeks after God, not even one.

They did not believe precisely because God gave them up to their sins and chose not to mercifully have them believe. God was under no obligation to mercifully save them. Yet, God, fulfilling his will and purpose, saved Noah and his family. God moved Noah and family to believe. Jesus uses the term "draw", which means to drag up, like a bucket out of a well draws up water. The water doesn't choose to go up the well, indeed it cannot because it is a slave to gravity. But a more powerful force can draw it up. That's what God does for all whom he chooses.



Amen

Mankind, by nature is evil and will never choose God.

Romans 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Amen, their very nature gives them only one choice. Rebellion and condemnation. Such were both you and me until God chose to draw us out of the well of our own sin. God must choose, because we will not.


Romans 9 does exactly that. It tells us that God chooses, before anyone can do either good or bad. From the end of Romans 8 through Romans 11, Paul walks us through God's election of both Jew and Gentile.

The mystery of how God does this election is not revealed to us. That is for the Sovereign King. What we know is that whosoever believes will be saved. The whosoever is the elect, the ones God chose from before the foundation of the world.

You leave a little wiggle room for mankind to cooperate with God. God doesn't give that wiggle room. He tells us that no one cooperates with God outside of Christ Jesus. No one seeks God. There is no wiggle room. We were all dead in our trespasses and sins until God made us alive with Christ. By grace you were saved. (Ephesians 2:1-9)

Well, I don't claim to be right, but though I agree with 99% of what you're saying, to me if mankind did not have the ability to either choose or refuse when called, he would be like all other animal species, living by instinct only. (I obviously don't believe that choosing Christ when called is in any way paying towards what Christ did to save us because of or sins). The act of repenting and submitting does not make our salvation 99.99% grace and 0.01% a payment for our choice - it's still 100% grace and 0% our works. It's grace that can only come to us through faith, but not grace because of faith. It's grace only because of Christ's sacrifice and the price He paid for our redemption. All His work, none of ours.

But I'm also fully, totally and completely aware of the fact that not only do I not know everything, I know hardly anything, so I really wouldn't be the person to "prove" Calvinism to be a little off or very off, or anything else. For example I believe (as I've already said) that God does call many who reject His calling because, as Jesus said, they loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil - but is that all mankind? What about those in centuries gone by in remote parts of the world (or parts that used to be remote) who never even heard the gospel? What about those who know about the gospel but have grown up in countries where "the whole world" "knows" that "Christianity isn't true"? (I say that in quotation marks because I have in mind Muslims, unsaved Jews, etc, and what they believe).

There are too many questions I can't answer.

 

[ad finitum]

“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:11 (KJV 1900)

Let's not quote anything out of context. It's Romans 3:11-18. These are quotes from the Old Testament. What is the context of those quotes? If we examine those quotes in their Old Testament context, we can rightly interpret what Paul is trying to say. We are compelled to assume that Paul is not quoting out of context, but expects his readers to understand the context of his Old Testament references.

We can ask ourselves, is that the interpretive procedure that Calvinist apologists utilized before quoting Romans 3:11 in isolation? What do you think?

These are quotes from Psalms 14 and 53 and Isaiah 59:1-17. If you read them, you discover that they're not talking about unbelievers but rather people of God who have become faithless to the point where they can no longer see God in evidence, so that as in Psalm 14:1, it says literally "No God". As a result, they (that is all Israelites who fall away to this extent) persecute the poor and devour the generation of the righteous (Psalm 14). The presences of the righteous in this context tells us the the "none" is not talking about them, and thus the inference that "none" is referring to all humanity is incorrect. Just read Isaiah 59:1-17. The people who are doing this are Israelites, the chosen people of God. They are not gentiles. Paul makes the point that gentiles are not different in their capacity to sink to this level, where they no longer see God in evidence, and so take advantage of people thinking there will be no consequences to them in pursuing their desires. The "none" refers to all the people who fall into this category described in (Psalm 14:1).

It's our duty as Bible students to know the context of Paul's references in the Old Testament. If we don't do that, we will misinterpret what he's saying.

 

[Bible Scanned]

Let me explain what I believe. I believe a man must repent of his sins and believe in Christ. Paul wrote;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I was drawn, convicted of my sin. The hearing of the gospel gave me faith and the Holy Spirit convinced me of Christ as Savior. I was saved by Jesus Christ. Not the holy Spirit.as some here claim. Of course the Holy Spirit had a lot to do with it. Never the less it's called a relationship with the Lord and I had a choice. That choice was to believe or not to. I was 14 years old at the time. A relationship is a mutual agreement.

Yes. We agree on the above. I never said the Holy Spirit saved us - but Christ is not bodily present in the world now, so His Holy Spirit does the work, just as He promised, when He was still bodily present with His disciples, when He promised to send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit calls us, witnesses to us regarding Christ in us (who is in us through His Holy Spirit), sanctifies us, guides us, teaches us through enlightening our understanding of the written Word, comforts us, exhorts us, convicts us of sin, and keeps us.

I do not believe this choosing is being elect as the Jews are and I didn't exist before the foundation of the world. I know I'm saved because I believe and the Bible tell me so We are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Eph 2:5MB.

Christ existed before the foundation of the world. God the Father chose His elect in Christ (His elect who are in Christ) before we even came into existence. To me that's just Biblical.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say (quote) "I do not believe this choosing is being elect as the Jews are" (unquote) but if you mean what I think you might mean, then I choose for now to stay far away from the subject, if it's OK

As far as babies are concerned (I saw that subject was on your mind in your post to someone else), no one who has not broken a law, has broken a law. So I believe that babies are:-

1. Innocent of sin until they sin (which only comes later). No one is a sinner until he has sinned.

2. All babies are born alive physically, but dead spiritually because death came to all mankind through Adam, and so as the child grows older, sooner or later the child will sin. We are all born with that sin-principle in us, which is why we all die - because death comes through sin. It's the wages of sin.

3. I believe that the following is what happens to children who die before they have reached the age of accountability:

Matthew 19
14 But Jesus said, Allow the little children to come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven.

I believe in a God who is love.

 

[AustinC]

Well, I don't claim to be right, but though I agree with 99% of what you're saying, to me if mankind did not have the ability to either choose or refuse when called, he would be like all other animal species, living by instinct only. (I obviously don't believe that choosing Christ when called is in any way paying towards what Christ did to save us because of or sins). The act of repenting and submitting does not make our salvation 99.99% grace and 0.01% a payment for our choice - it's still 100% grace and 0% our works. It's grace that can only come to us through faith, but not grace because of faith. It's grace only because of Christ's sacrifice and the price He paid for our redemption. All His work, none of ours.

But I'm also fully, totally and completely aware of the fact that not only do I not know everything, I know hardly anything, so I really wouldn't be the person to "prove" Calvinism to be a little off or very off, or anything else. For example I believe (as I've already said) that God does call many who reject His calling because, as Jesus said, they loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil - but is that all mankind? What about those in centuries gone by in remote parts of the world (or parts that used to be remote) who never even heard the gospel? What about those who know about the gospel but have grown up in countries where "the whole world" "knows" that "Christianity isn't true"? (I say that in quotation marks because I have in mind Muslims, unsaved Jews, etc, and what they believe).

There are too many questions I can't answer.

I point you to Romans 9.

It is the passage that changed this former free will Arminian's mind. It takes massive mental gymnastics to get around what Paul tells us. So, I just accepted what is said and thus accept that God shows particular mercy to those he chooses and he does not show mercy to the rest. It is a mystery we give to God, yet Paul taught it by inspiration of God so we cannot just ignore it and teach what we would like God to do from our perspective.

 

[Bible Scanned]

I point you to Romans 9.

It is the passage that changed this former free will Arminian's mind. It takes massive mental gymnastics to get around what Paul tells us. So, I just accepted what is said and thus accept that God shows particular mercy to those he chooses and he does not show mercy to the rest. It is a mystery we give to God, yet Paul taught it by inspiration of God so we cannot just ignore it and teach what we would like God to do from our perspective.

Yes, I can see where you're going with it. I've read Romans 9 through 11 many times, and I honestly don't believe it supports Calvin's idea about Predestination and what Predestination is. Romans 9 is packed with (for want of a better word), nuance, and very easy to misinterpret or to use for all sorts of (conflicting) doctrinal positions. Esau and Jacob .. well Esau sold his birthright, and God knew beforehand this is what Esau would do, so does Paul's statement mean that Esau had no hand in it?

But I have to go now so won't be able to continue today with this thread, but will catch up again as soon as I can tomorrow.

God bless and thank you for the patience.

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not accept Calvinism because I do not wish to be anything like you. You falsely accuse me every time you post to me. Your so full of hatered of anyone who disagrees with you. just like the Pharisee's. You believe Calvinist are the only ones saved. Just like the JW"s everyone else is absolutely wrong. Calvinism is all about self.
MB

The hatred comes from your keyboard.
No one asked you to be like me.
I offer help to those who want it. You do not want it.
That is no skin off my nose.
Several people who start out not believing as I do, now not only believe it, but can teach me things about it as we should be doing.
Many have offered you help, you refuse.
Look at some of your posts, tell me which ones are designed to be helpful?I might not have seen those posts.
You do not understand the fall into sin and death.
Your responses on that are totally unbiblical.
What do you want me to do? Give you a cookie, and say nice try?
If you were a novice trying to learn each Cal here would help.
You come on and attempt to get in everyone's face and call names.
People are patient with sincere people.
Take a break from this topic, try and post as a Christian would. Try and help someone else.

I do not speak for all who love the doctrines of grace, however from what I see....no Cal reading what you offer can see anything to build on.They can speak up and tell me if I am wrong.
Try posting on other topics for awhile.

 

[Iconoclast]

I disagree. I'm here to oppose your Calvinism because I do not believe one word of it. You have failed to prove any of it..
MB

It is not mine, but the teaching is God"s. The link I offered is from John Brown of Haddington.
He was a poor man, but I am told he worked his way up, and learned greek on His own,
He is considered a great theologian.
You disparage him, and God who gifted him for Kingdom service.

 

[Iconoclast]

You answer some of my questions first. Where is your proof of men inheriting Adam's sin. and that Babies are born sinners.
MB

Oh boy....bible 101.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, I can see where you're going with it. I've read Romans 9 through 11 many times, and I honestly don't believe it supports Calvin's idea about Predestination and what Predestination is. Romans 9 is packed with (for want of a better word), nuance, and very easy to misinterpret or to use for all sorts of (conflicting) doctrinal positions. Esau and Jacob .. well Esau sold his birthright, and God knew beforehand this is what Esau would do, so does Paul's statement mean that Esau had no hand in it?

But I have to go now so won't be able to continue today with this thread, but will catch up again as soon as I can tomorrow.

God bless and thank you for the patience.

I have never read Calvin's commentary on it. I consider the text alone and there is no other conclusion I can make without making things up to deny God's Sovereign right to chose to whom he will and won't extend mercy.

 

[MB]

The hatred comes from your keyboard.
No one asked you to be like me.
I offer help to those who want it. You do not want it.
That is no skin off my nose.
Several people who start out not believing as I do, now not only believe it, but can teach me things about it as we should be doing.
Many have offered you help, you refuse.
Look at some of your posts, tell me which ones are designed to be helpful?I might not have seen those posts.
You do not understand the fall into sin and death.
Your responses on that are totally unbiblical.
What do you want me to do? Give you a cookie, and say nice try?
If you were a novice trying to learn each Cal here would help.
You come on and attempt to get in everyone's face and call names.
People are patient with sincere people.
Take a break from this topic, try and post as a Christian would. Try and help someone else.
Try posting on other topics for awhile.

I'd suggest tyat you take your own advice.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Bible Scanned,

As far as babies are concerned (I saw that subject was on your mind in your post to someone else), no one who has not broken a law, has broken a law. So I believe that babies are:-

1. Innocent of sin until they sin (which only comes later). No one is a sinner until he has sinned.

All sinned in Adam.rom3:23.....at one point in time, the fall.

We sin by experience later on, but all are guilty because Adam sinned.

 

[thomas15]

Are those on this board that argue in favor of the reformed Calvinist doctrine of election unto salvation and state that those those who are not convinced have no understanding even though they (the non-Calvinists) are trusting in the cross of Christ, are those (the Calvinists on BB) themselves members of the this special elect class? If they are, how do they know this?

Are those on this board that are trusting in Christ (as per John 1:12) but believe in unlimited atonement and/or allow for some free will in accepting Christ, are those condemned to everlasting hell with the unbelievers?

Is belief in TULIP a condition for salvation?

Is denial of some or all of TULIP by an individual now declared disqualified for salvation regardless of how much that person believes and confesses Christ Crucified?

 

[Silverhair]

You realize that Paul destroys your assertion in Romans 9. Why make a comment that the Bible destroys?

Second, you misunderstand the term "God is not a respecter of men." This means God is not impressed with any human being bases upon their self-righteousness. This means that God's choice is a mystery to us. Even the angels are perplexed by God's mercy to any human. Therefore, your complaints hold no merit.

Austin you wrote:

>>Second, you misunderstand the term "God is not a respecter of men." This means God is not impressed with any human being bases upon their self-righteousness. This means that God's choice is a mystery to us.<<

I do have to question your assertion that God’s choice is a mystery, that is just the Calvinist way of avoiding the question. God has been quite clear as to the requirements for salvation, it is Faith in His son. Joh 3:16-18 Paul even shows us the steps that bring that about Rom 10:14-15. And if you were not sure about why someone would be open to the gospel message well the Holy Spirit is the answer Jon 16:8-9.

So you see God has made in abundantly clear in scripture both the way and the means of salvation.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So here we see Justification explained. What can we know by these verses?

1] It is apart form the Law

2] It is through faith in Christ Jesus

3] It is for all men

4] It is by the grace of God

5] It was accomplished at great cost to God

It has often been said “Salvation is free, but it is not cheap” The cost to God for our salvation can be summed up in three words: propitiation, redemption, and blood. My salvation cost me nothing, but it cost God the life of His son, Christ Jesus.

God has provided the way and the means we just have to accept it.

 

[Silverhair]

Bible Scanned,



All sinned in Adam.rom3:23.....at one point in time, the fall.

We sin by experience later on, but all are guilty because Adam sinned.

I looked in my bible and this is what I find when God judged Adam:
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

Don't see any mention that we all sinned in Adam, that must be in your special Calvinist bible. And would you mind quoting Rom 3:23 from that bible. This is what I have it must be different from yours
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Now I agree that we all sin and we will be judged for our sin but you have to read into scripture to get what you are saying as it is not in the bible.
We are not held responsible for the sins of others, each person will be judged for their own actions good or bad.

Eze_18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[Silverhair]

Humans cannot even control their tongues. If they had free will, they could be sinless.

Think about what you just wrote here dave. You life is determined and yet you are not sinless. Does that mean that your version of God really can't control what you say and do?

 

[Silverhair]

So you believe only Adam and Eve had the knowledge of good and evil? And the decents of Adam and Eve were born sinless?

So you believe that you are responsible for the sin of Adam and everyone in your line of ancestry back to Adam. Show me that in scripture please.

Here is one that says we do not
Eze_18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

We all sin because we are all spiritually separated for God. God admonished Adam not to eat from the tree and even told him what the consequence would be if he did.

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Did Adam die physically, no but he did die spiritually. The relationship between him and God was broken. So your comment of all having to be born sinless is just a strawman argument.

 

[Silverhair]

Your false and empty reply demonstrates why you cannot find truth on these matters.
Not one thing quoted suggests what you say.
Have you worked through the quote with an open bible considering the verses.....no.
Can you go over line by line and show what you object to....no.
Why not try something?
Post on other topics and offer something biblically valuable.
That might try and establish some credibility which you do not have.
Show you can make biblical sense in contrast to trying to throw stones at bible believers who are Calvinists.
The quote offered has many verses....you offer none.

Question for you, did you do the work that would be required to make the multi post or do you just do a copy paste? I a copy paste then please give the author and link.