The Peace Of God That Passes All Understanding

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Helen:
1. Preach, your examples happen, but by selecting a few examples you are ignoring so much other stuff. Here is some real life stuff.

2. Two of my daughter's closest friends come from families where the parents fight consistently. Others of her friends come from divorces in the families, resulting in confusion, resentmen, anger, and such in the parents. These kids have had their foundation in life shaken to the core emotionally. A parent has left, or is always arguing with the other parent.

3. The kids' reactions? Often a quiet and pervasive depression. Their sin? They need to repent? No. They are reacting to their worlds being torn apart and/or dented and damaged each day. There is nothing they can do to remedy the situation. Nothing they can change.

Helen, I have no desire to hash it out again with you, but I will say this much:

1. My example was just that. Many times, people do not stop to examine their lives to consider than something might have caused the depression. The solution is not to address the depression. The solution is to address that which caused the depression. I hope this makes sense.

2. As I figured we would, we totally disagree with your "real life example". The difference probably comes because I do not always look to see how people have been wronged and then defend their wrong attitudes.

I grew up in a home where much fighting was done by the parents. This happens everywhere and is a result of sin. No where does a bad circumstance give a person the right to respond wrong. Remember, the Hebrew christians had their homes destroyed and they rejoiced.

3. If they responded the way you said so, they sinned. They need to repent of several things:

a. wrong focus about life - they are too near sighted and are focusing on the evil around them and not upon those things which are noble, just, pure, lovely, and of good report.

b. wrong focus about eternity - Do you not know that the present sufferings are not to be compared with the glory that will be revealed in us?

c. wrong response - God has called all believers to be peacemakers. What did they do to alleviate the stress of their parents? Did the parents fight at all because the children were rebellious.

Okay, the list could go on and on and on. The way I understand what you are saying is this: I realize you have a hard life. Deal with it in the best way you know how. God understands what you are going through.

Instead of rebuking false behavior and attitudes, you desire that we coddle them. I will not.

I will further add this, if these kids that you are describing to not learn what God expects of them now, they will not be prepared to handle it as adults. They will go through trying circumstances then also. Instead of understanding God's purpose in all of it and having a correct attitude, they will probably try to just escape it and alleviate their problems through a drug (prescribed or illegal).

Helen, I think you are a nice lady that tries to help people. I think your initial assessment of the real problem is why I disagree so strongly with you on this.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
There was a CHEMICAL IMBALANCE in his brain that was sending the wrong signals to his heart.

What was the chemical?

 

[Helen]

I've never considered the response of feeling pain to be a sin. What one does with it may fall into that category, but feeling pain is NOT a sin. Ever. In fact, the more deeply something has cut into what you care about, such as a marriage, a family, a ministry, the more you might feel that pain and the longer, despite your focus, it might last. To not feel pain means you don't feel.

Depression is a response of pain. Anger can be, too. The Bible tells us that in our anger we should not sin. It does not call anger a sin. Anger combined with a sense of hopelessness about a situation can be called depression. You cannot bring a dead child back -- there is a sense of hopelessness there as you go clean out her room for the last time. Tears. Pain. A ripping feeling in the heart. It will not go away tomorrow. The best that can be said is that the hole in your heart will one day stop bleeding when you think of her; but that hole will always be there. Because you loved her. You had invested something of yourself into her. And no matter if you turn your eyes up and trust God completely, the pain will continue for some time.

Now, if you hang on to that pain, that is wrong. If you refuse to walk through it, but try to pretend it isn't there, that is just as wrong -- for it is denial of the truth! If you turn the pain inward and feed on it, that is wrong.

But if you are willing to walk through that valley of the shadow of death (for that is truly what depression is, although there are also other things which can be called that valley), looking to the Lord, that is the right way to deal with it. But the idea is to walk through it, holding His hand, being guided through it by Him. And there may well be a chemical help that He leads you to for the short term. One does not try to heal a broken leg without a cast and crutches for the most part!

Depression truly is a type of pain, and...

Pain is a warning.

It might be a warning about sin.

It might be a warning about something else.

Don't presume what it is warning of until you have checked. Don't judge a person until you know what is going on.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
There was a CHEMICAL IMBALANCE in his brain that was sending the wrong signals to his heart.

What was the chemical? </font>[/QUOTE]"inbalance" means there was more than one involved. And there are a number that can do that. She may have an answer for you and she may not, if she does not know the names. Here are some which may have been involved -- see if you recognize any:

1. In many cases, there is a reduction in the amount of certain neurotransmitters(monoamines such as serotonin and norepinephrine).

2. The natural production of seratonin, noraderenalin, and dopamine -- all of which have to do with mood balance -- are suppressed during times of stress, enabling the more energetic 'flight or fight' response. A lot of stress we can handle ourselves, simply by turning to the Lord and that will solve that -- it's a matter of trust. But there are stresses that come even when your walk with the Lord is very close -- and if he will please pardon me, consider our wonderful own Tyndale (Glen) here. If you have followed his story, you know he is walking through a very difficult valley right now, and depression has tugged at him at times. I don't know how successful those tugs have been, but I know his stress level has got to be about through the roof right now. There WILL be chemical repercussions he has to deal with. On top of everything else. His love for his wife and his son and the giant pulls he feels inside to be with each and help each and maintain the house and the rest of his life as well are almost past imagining. He will lose sleep. He will probably not always eat right. If he goes through a period of depression, will you be challenging him about any chemical names? Or will you pray for him and stand beside him and walk with him a little through this valley?

3. If you want a list of chemicals -- which, by the way, are more properly neurotransmitters -- which can affect function, here
http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/nerves.html


And talking to my son a minute ago when he called, he mentioned something else I hadn't thought of -- both constipation and diarrhea can upset enough of the water and chemical balance in the body to cause mood changes. Granted, these might not be as severe as actual depression, but if you are already hurting or under stress and you are not eating right or drinking enough water, bingo, you just added to the problem without even thinking about it!

It's not a matter of coddling anyone. It's a matter of gathering intelligence. It's also a matter of, in a crisis, reacting to the crisis situation first (always wise to remove the rope from the neck of a person about to hang himself before you start talking to him! Get the guy of the ledge -- physically and/or emotionally -- and then counsel him!), before the business of long-term counseling and walking with them and encouraging their faith in Christ.

If you are dealing with a person who is preferring his depression, get tough with him. That's fine. But know that is what is going on. Get the information you need first, before the tough approach. The person might just have survived a life-crunching ordeal that needs to be dealt with emotionally. He may be doing his best to walk through that valley with Christ.

We have a choice of helping or hindering in the way we approach that person.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

HELEN Thank you for correcting me. Neurotransmitters work much better. And, you are right, it was a combination.

PASTOR LARRY I'm sorry; I cannot remember the specific names. I couldn't even pronounce half of them at the time; let alone spell them, now, two years later.

I was more concerned about getting a cardiologist, a heart surgeon, and two neurosurgeons to believe that there was something wrong with my husband that they had not addressed and to take action. I'm sure they thought I was crazy, (a thought which had crossed my mind also), because I could not give them a specific example; but I knew my husband; and I knew he wasn't talking right.

After the CAT scan; they said he would not have lived another week had they not discovered, what they called, 'a chemical imbalance' in his brain and implanted the defribillator.

The chemical imbalance was causing the neurotransmitters to send the wrong signals to his heart.

My husband credits God for giving me discernment and I credit God with giving the doctors' wisdom.

He thanks me all the time for saving his life. I told him it's because he has a mouthy wife who will not let go if she believes she is right!

Sue

 

[Daniel David]

Sue, Helen, and others, I am wondering what all of this has to do with responding wrong toward a situation.

As I have seen others say, if something is legitimately wrong with a person (that can be verified and not merely speculated upon), then treatment should happen.

Three biblical examples:

1. Elijah was in sin with his little pout session. God gave him food so that he would have some strength in him. Then God did some neuthetic counseling with him and set him straight.

2. Job was not in sin directly. He struggled with things and questioned God (which can be sin depending on why you do it). God did not waste time by coddling him. God confronted Job's incomplete ideas about who God really is. This solved Job's depression.

3. On the road to Emmaus, two disciples of Christ were walking and were depressed (and possibly nervous and fearful) about Christ's death.

They had some problems:

a. They did not believe the resurrection.
b. They did not understand why the Christ would die.
c. They did not move in faith toward the revelation of God.

Christ rebuked them strongly and said, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!" Maybe Christ should have read about how damaging that was to their self-esteem . No, Christ knew how to address people. Their "grief" was only their because it was a result of their own selfinflicted misunderstanding of Scripture. Christ corrected their wrong interpretation and they were all better. I realize the story might not be exhaustive and that Jesus might have given them some drugs (just kidding).

 

[Helen]

Preach, I think you have been missing the point. There is a difference between 'self-inflicted' grief and 'other-inflicted' grief, first of all.

And there is a profound difference between choosing depression as a default position in life and reacting to the devastation of having a daughter die of a brain tumor; or having a child kidnapped, raped, and killed; or of finding out your spouse, whom you trusted, has been unfaithful with a variety of partners for years. I worked jailside in a TB hospital once -- and one afternoon watched a man start coughing up blood in the corridor and bleed out through his mouth and nose in vast gushes of blood as he died. It took me awhile to get over that. I watched helplessly as my best friend went into profound shock and mourning over the fact that her baby that she had felt move just that morning as she went into labor was stillborn just a few hours later. It took her awhile to get over that, too.

Lastly, fear, doubt, and worry are not depression. Perfect love -- the love of God -- casts out all fear. Doubt and worry are banished as one learns more and more to trust Christ through life. But depression is different -- it is the deep, debilitating pain that can cripple a life, at least for awhile.

Believe it or not, it does not cancel out the peace of God that passes all understanding, which is what this thread is actually about. The two simply are not mutually exclusive. Your life can be shattered, and you can be almost paralyzed with the pain of it, but you can still feel -- underneath it all -- that reassurance from the Lord that He is still in control and that His is with you. There is peace in that. But that peace does not deny the pain.

And sometimes people need something to help with the pain, in the same way they do after a surgery or bad accident.

It's really as simple as that.

 

[ByGrace]

1. "Elijah was in sin with his little pout session. God gave him food so that he would have some strength in him. Then God did some neuthetic counseling with him and set him straight."

Yes, but God took care of Elijah's physical needs first, then He ministered to his spiritual needs.

2. "Job was not in sin directly. He struggled with things and questioned God (which can be sin depending on why you do it). God did not waste time by coddling him. God confronted Job's incomplete ideas about who God really is. This solved Job's depression."

And God also had a few words to say to Job's "friends," like what lousy consellors they were: "It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, 'My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.'"

"Maybe Christ should have read about how damaging that was to their self-esteem . No, Christ knew how to address people."

Let's keep in mind that Christ knows what is in our hearts, He knows whether our problem is spiritual or physical. We cannot see into someone else's heart....and many times we do not have enough information to make an accurate assessment of someone else's condition.

The Bible does not say it is wrong to seek the aid of a physician, and both the Old and New Testaments recommend the use of medicine. Nowhere does the Bible condemn going to a physician or taking medicine. Even Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick" (Matt. 9:12) The Bible DOES say that we should seek God and pray.

Grace

 

[Daniel David]

Originally said by BYGRACE

The Bible does not say it is wrong to seek the aid of a physician, and both the Old and New Testaments recommend the use of medicine. Nowhere does the Bible condemn going to a physician or taking medicine. Even Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick" (Matt. 9:12) The Bible DOES say that we should seek God and pray.

Bygrace, did you read that one part of my post where I said:

As I have seen others say, if something is legitimately wrong with a person (that can be verified and not merely speculated upon), then treatment should happen.

Helen, I don't wish for this to deteriate, but I have noticed that you use your personal circumstances alot to interpret how things should be. I believe you also use them to interpret Scripture.

If you respond incorrectly, whatever the reason, you are in sin.

You cannot draw a line in your thinking. Someone else can just go a little further than you, and you would have no objective measure to say they are wrong.

Here is an example that I will use not saying that you said this:

A christian mother has a child that has died. She grieves for her child(not only is this perfectly legitimate, but necessary). Her grieving turns into hopelessness. She has just crossed the line.

You might think I am harsh. Hear what Paul said though:

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow AS others who have no hope."

So, it is a sin to mourn in hopelessness.

Also, whether grief is inflicted by someone else or by yourself, you are responsible for how you respond. There is a difference in the source of the grief yes. There is a command to respond properly. Failure to do so is sin. No debate is necessary. This is the Fundy forum. We do not question God's word.

 

[ByGrace]

A christian mother has a child that has died. She grieves for her child(not only is this perfectly legitimate, but necessary). Her grieving turns into hopelessness. She has just crossed the line.

Sounds to me like this mother is still in the struggling phase, experiencing a deep grief, and trying to hold on to her sanity. Questioning doesn't mean one has committed the unpardonable sin. It's doing what Job did (Job 3-39), striving on many levels - with God, with his friends, and within himself - for peace, reconciliation, wholeness. The process of resolving grief is not a straight line, but a continual progression from the pits to the peaks. . .and it can't be rushed, or on a timetable.

Grace

 

[Helen]

Someday, Preach, you will understand more. I am not saying anything that disagrees with the Bible. Nor did I say my friend has given up to general hopelessness. But, like David, while her child was alive, there was hope for recovery, almost up until the last days. That hope was buried in a not-so-big casket not so long ago. The hope of seeing her mature into a young lady, of watching her ups and downs, her teen romances and eventual marriage, of seeing her musical talent develop -- these hopes are gone. And when she went into her daughter's room to clean it one last time, I was with her. Sometimes there were tears. Sometimes she would stand there just shaking all over, without any tears at all.

"I know God is here. I know He is here. I just wish she were, too....this is so hard...."

I don't want you to have to learn that way, but I do want you to learn.

We don't escape these times of devastation because of God; we get through them because of Him. And when we are His, we come out wiser, more humble, more loving, more mature.

When you get hit broadside by something that feels like it is going to crush you, please remember that. You will need to remember that.

==========

Edit: just read your post that came in ahead of mine, Grace. You hit the nail on the head and thank you.

 

[Daniel David]

As I have said, grieving is necessary. We are to grieve with those who grieve. Before I go further, please remember that the next time to post as though I think otherwise.

I would never wish the death of a child upon anyone. I know it is painful. I know people grieve. You talk to me as though I am stone. I don't have to be 50 to know pain exists and that many times people feel crushed by it. The Scripture does give us the instruction so we know what to do when that does happen. If you grieve from a hopeless state, you are in sin. Christ is still the balm in Gilead that can heal even the deepest wound. I have already provided the direct quote.

I hope my learning never leads me to compromise direct statements in Scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The reason I asked about the chemical imbalance was to demonstrate that it was not some nebulous thing. It was testable and treatable. That is far different than most depression.

I still think Helen has totally missed the point about responses. No one has said that grieving is sin. But there is a right way to grieve and a wrong way. There are sinful responses such as depression, despair, anxiety, etc. that are properly addressed by repentance. If the doctor says that the body is fine, then we deal with the spirit. We do not gloss over it becuase it is too tough for some people to take. We deal with it biblically, calling people to obey Scripture, even in our thoughts, even in the dark times.

 

[Helen]

Please remember, Larry, that medicine has not discovered everything there is to know about our bodies. Physical causes can exist even when we can't find them.

My plea is not to judge people who are depressed. Depression is a form of pain. Pain is simply not a sin. It only becomes sin when you hold onto it and refuse healing.

Some valleys one is led through are really, really deep valleys.

When Bob left us, that was a deep valley. He had been head usher in our church. We were the 'ideal family'. I truly believed we had a good marriage, even though there were 'rough spots.' I did not realize until after the kind of emotional abuse I had been though. And he prayed for me and I prayed for him.

And when he left, even my faith partially crumbled. A sin? No. God did that. My faith had been built on intellectual understanding, and that's not what God's will is for any of us. It's a personal, close relationship that God leads us to.

Bob left in July. By mid-October it had gotten so bad inside of me that one night, after all my tears were cried out for that night, all I could finally do was look up in the black and say all there was left to say: "You are God and I am not. Have mercy...."

That was all that was really left inside of me, despite years of being a Christian, teaching Sunday Schools, leading Bible studies, and really knowing the Bible.

But God had to crush that kind of faith and so He allowed all that to happen. And that valley was the deepest one I have ever walked. Deeper than when my dad died, or when I found out my mom had been going out on him for years. Deeper than when Julie was diagnosed with RSD or when I had to go through chemo.

But God led me through that valley of deep, dark depression for a reason. By the end of it, I had a new faith. Same God, new faith. A faith provided by HIM, not one I had constructed based on my own understanding. A faith based on Him, and as I look around here on this BaptistBoard and in my daily life, I can see the difference so clearly now. So many people base their faith on what they understand and not who God is.

We usually try for the first. God will not settle for less than the second. It's not about salvation; it's about maturing in Christ. And, for me, having all my 'own' faith crushed into oblivion was totally necessary for me to come to the point where God wanted me.

Be gentle with depressed people. Let God judge them. Pray for them, befriend them, help them when you can. But don't call their depression a sin unless God really, really impresses that on your heart.

A friend can increase the peace underneath the depression for a Christian or add pain so much that it's harder to feel the peace. With a non-Christian, simply our initial reaching out and friendship can be the buoy on a stormy ocean when they feel they are sinking. Don't presume what Christ would do; just let Him work through you.

'love your neighbor as you love yourself' -- even if he is depressed.

 

[ByGrace]

I still think Helen has totally missed the point about responses. No one has said that grieving is sin. But there is a right way to grieve and a wrong way. There are sinful responses such as depression, despair, anxiety, etc. that are properly addressed by repentance

With all due respect, Pastor, I think Helen is one of the few on here who HAS understood the point....and has expressed it very well. Because she doesn't give glib answers and try and set a timetable for grieving, doesn't mean she has missed the point.

The Psalmist wrote: "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the LORD upholds him with His hand." When you're up, you think you'll never be down, and when you're down, you think you'll never be up. But in the process of living you will go through times of success and times of failure and discouragement. Allow God to do His work, don't try and do it for HIm.

There are no super-Christians. Jesus died for us because we are sinners. When we approach someone who has just felt the snap of a "broken rope," we had better take the position of one who, if we got what we deserved would be holding a frazzled, broken rope too. It is important that we identify with those to whom God has sent us. If we can't identify with them, we ought to stay away from them....so as not to make things worse. Whenever our Christian brothers or sisters suffer, we need to realize that the same thing that is happening to them today could happen to us tomorrow. We must be careful of the words we dish out now. We may have to eat them later. Don't be like Job's friends. . .they didn't do anything practical. They just talked. Job needed someone to bind up his wounds, not pour salt in them. Maybe he needed a hug. All he got from his friends were words. Christians ought to know how to tie knots.

Grace

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
My plea is not to judge people who are depressed. Depression is a form of pain. Pain is simply not a sin. It only becomes sin when you hold onto it and refuse healing.

Depression that is not physical is spiritual. There are no other options. If we are depressed about our situation in life, it is a matter of our belief in the sovereignty of God. I am pleading with you not to be so simplistic and surface in this matter. There are real lives that are hurting. We must give them hope. Our sinful choices can bring depression. Depression can be caused by other things. But in it all, let's call it what it is ... do it nicely ... but don't shy away from reality and certainly don't gloss over it.

When the valleys are deepest, we find the truth of God the strongest. When we hurt the most, we find his loving arms of comfort through his truth. None of us here are glib or misunderstanding about depression. We are very realistic about it, and are very realistic about offering real hope. I seriously don't know what else to say than what has been said so many times already.

I hope that you will consider the great damage your words can do to people who need hope. Let's not let them continue to think that they have to suffer, that there are no other options. The God of all grace ministers, even when we hurt.

"You are God and I am not. Have mercy...."

Unfortunately, it takes people way too long to get here. This should be the first step, as we see from hurting Job. When are faith is shaken, it is a sin. It is the sin of failign to trust God. I know that seems glib. But I have been at the point of shaken faith, where I was ready to walk away from everything including life. I didn't care if I never saw another day and I struggled to live from day to day. But I learned that faith had to real. And that my depression was a failure to believe and act like God was in control.

Psalm 18:30 says that God's way is perfect. I don't get to question that. I get to live in it.

Be gentle with depressed people. Let God judge them. Pray for them, befriend them, help them when you can.

I agree.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

I thought it interesting that Preach mentioned Job. Job was depressed even to the point of wishing he hadn't been born but not because of sin. His sadness and depression was due to his circumstances and yes he finally was healed and by no medicine but by God. Today we can also be healed in this way, as I have said many times God is the only total and complete cure. But many find it necessary to utilize counselors and medications as they reach toward complete healing. Now back to the story of Job, why is it so interesting that he was mentioned? because as it turned out those who offered him counsel saying that he was in sin were Dead wrong. I fear that many of us are also dead wrong when we try to generalize each incident of depression.
Murph

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Now back to the story of Job, why is it so interesting that he was mentioned? because as it turned out those who offered him counsel saying that he was in sin were Dead wrong.

Closer reflection on the story would remind us that his friends were not talking about his state of mind but rather the cause for his losses. In the end, Job did get depressed and God sat him down and said, Now let me ask you a few questions and you answer me (cf. chapters 36ff.). This is when Job realized his own puniness and how wrong it was of him to question God. The remedy was forgiving his friends (42:6).

In sum, the facts as you relate them are not really what the book is about. His friends said his sin was what brought the loss of his farm and his family. They were not talking about his depression or state of mind.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Closer reflection on the story would remind us that his friends were not talking about his state of mind but rather the cause for his losses.

Larry if you can seperate Job's physical losses from his anguish and depressed state then you are amazing. As is the case so often today our conditions influence our depression and sadness.

In the end, Job did get depressed and God sat him down and said, Now let me ask you a few questions and you answer me (cf. chapters 36ff.). This is when Job realized his own puniness and how wrong it was of him to question God. The remedy was forgiving his friends (42:6).

In the end!!!! In chapter 3 just after his friends arrive is when he wishes he had not been born, then again in chapter 6 (that's as far a I read this morning) but you feel he became depressed at the end?

In sum, the facts as you relate them are not really what the book is about. His friends said his sin was what brought the loss of his farm and his family. They were not talking about his depression or state of mind. [/QB]

Once again I feel the two are inseperatable, just as they are with many today. By the way congratulations on going over 5000 posts that is quite an achivement

Murph

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Once again I feel the two are inseperatable, just as they are with many today.

I think the beginning of Job shows that Job maintained in his confidence in God for a long time, even with the loss. He was determined to trust God and follow him. He was not depressed them. It was only after an extended period of time that he began to crumble, no doubt partly related to his friends.

By the way congratulations on going over 5000 posts that is quite an achivement

I hadn't even noticed. Thanks.