With respect, it doesn't.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
- Status
I am acquainted with the writings of Gustav Aulen (in the past someone....maybe you...mentioned him). I appreciate that he takes a biblical approach to the Atonement, but he gets too involved with the development of Penal Substitution Theory. The point should be whether or not the theory is in the text of Scripture - not how it came to be.
Origen, of course, held the Ransom Theory. What you have to realize is that not all who believe - like me - that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the World (or as Justin Martyr says, the "human family") affirms Penal Substitution Theory.
What is interesting about Origen is that - like Augustine - he did not view Christ's sacrifice as appeasing God.
Augustine considered the idea Christ's death appeased God as a strong heresy while Origen viewed Christ as appeasing "Satan" (some scholars believe his use of "Satan" was in the form of a sermon and symbolic of the personification of death).
Other errors; found on preceptaustin
David Thompson: Most people in the world think something about Jesus Christ and about what happened to Jesus Christ. Most people make some kind of mental calculation (SOME ESTIMATION OR ESTEEMING) concerning Jesus Christ. But what most THINK is not sound or right. Instead of esteeming Him and loving Him and believing in Him, MOST have come up with their own pathetic views and philosophies and opinions. In fact, in the history of theology there have been many faulty notions concerning the value of the death of Jesus Christ:
1) Origen (A.D. 185-254) said he thought Christ died to pay a ransom price to Satan to purchase men.
2) Pelagius (A.D. 354-420) said Christ died as a moral example to us all so we will be obedient even to God even when we suffer, to show that God loves us.
3) Faustus Socinus (A.D.1539-1604) said that Christ’s death was so that He might morally influence sinful men to follow Him.
4) Peter Abelard (A.D. 1079-1142) said that Christ’s death was designed to show us God
loved us.
5) Thomas Aquinas (A.D. 1225-1274) said that Christ’s death was not required by God to satisfy our sin problem with God, but it did allow a type of satisfaction. In other words, man can in some ways take care of his own sin problem without Christ’s death.
6) Hugo Grotius (A.D. 1583-1645) said Christ’s death demonstrates to all of us that the justice of God demand we suffer.
7) Some invented the idea that Jesus Christ died as a martyr to demonstrate His sincerity to His doctrine.
8) Some said that Christ died so He could identify with any person who dies.
David Thompson: Most people in the world think something about Jesus Christ and about what happened to Jesus Christ. Most people make some kind of mental calculation (SOME ESTIMATION OR ESTEEMING) concerning Jesus Christ. But what most THINK is not sound or right. Instead of esteeming Him and loving Him and believing in Him, MOST have come up with their own pathetic views and philosophies and opinions. In fact, in the history of theology there have been many faulty notions concerning the value of the death of Jesus Christ:
1) Origen (A.D. 185-254) said he thought Christ died to pay a ransom price to Satan to purchase men.
2) Pelagius (A.D. 354-420) said Christ died as a moral example to us all so we will be obedient even to God even when we suffer, to show that God loves us.
3) Faustus Socinus (A.D.1539-1604) said that Christ’s death was so that He might morally influence sinful men to follow Him.
4) Peter Abelard (A.D. 1079-1142) said that Christ’s death was designed to show us God
loved us.
5) Thomas Aquinas (A.D. 1225-1274) said that Christ’s death was not required by God to satisfy our sin problem with God, but it did allow a type of satisfaction. In other words, man can in some ways take care of his own sin problem without Christ’s death.
6) Hugo Grotius (A.D. 1583-1645) said Christ’s death demonstrates to all of us that the justice of God demand we suffer.
7) Some invented the idea that Jesus Christ died as a martyr to demonstrate His sincerity to His doctrine.
8) Some said that Christ died so He could identify with any person who dies.
ibid;
THE SHEPHERD
VIOLENTLY STRUCK
06293)(paga/pagha) means to meet, encounter, reach. To cause anything to strike or fall on a person. Thus the KJV "laid on Him" is too weak, for this Hebrew verb in this context conveys the nuance of a violent strike. For example in 2 Sa 1:15 paga means "cut him down," or kill him! B W Newton writes "In other passages our iniquity is spoken of as resting on the Holy One, and He bearing it. Here (Isa 53:6) it is spoken of as coming upon Him like a destroying foe and overwhelming Him with the wrath that it brought with it" So it was not our sin that killed the Servant of Jehovah but Jehovah Who killed His Servant to pay the sin debt we could never have paid -- paying for it with His precious blood (1 Pe 1:18-19+). Some have objected to such a harsh picture of God as Judge killing His own Son and so they have suggested a number of "theories" regarding Christ's substitutionary death. For more on this important subject see What are the various theories on the atonement? The death of Christ is best understood as the doctrine of penal substitution which in short sees Christ as our substitute to take the penalty for our sins, to satisfy the justice of God which is exactly what Paul says in 2 Cor 5:21 writing "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Peter says it this way "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Pe 2:24)
Motyer says caused to fall is "descriptive of the divine act of gathering into one place, on to one substitutionary Victim, the sins of all the sinners whom the Lord purposed to save. The Servant is the solution of the LORD to the needs of sinners." (Ibid)
Allen Ross on paga - The verb “has laid” on him is the verb paga’ (hipgia’); this verb will be an important one to study because it will be repeated at the end of the song as the summation-”he made intercession” for the transgressors. It is a word that means “to intercede, interpose.” In places in the Bible it is used to describe prayer, an intercession that is burdensome. But here it is substitutionary suffering that will divert the punishment-interposed.
Paga - 45x in 43v - approach(1), attack(2), attacked(1), came(1), cut him down(1), entreat(2), fall(7), fell(4), happen(1), intercede(2), interceded(1), kill(1), make supplication(1), meet(3), meets(3), met(2), pleaded(1), reached(6), spare(1), strike the mark(1), touched(1), touched and reached(1), urge(1)
Gen. 23:8; Gen. 28:11; Gen. 32:1; Exod. 5:3; Exod. 5:20; Exod. 23:4; Num. 35:19; Num. 35:21; Jos. 2:16; Jos. 16:7; Jos. 17:10; Jos. 19:11; Jos. 19:22; Jos. 19:26; Jos. 19:27; Jos. 19:34; Jdg. 8:21; Jdg. 15:12; Jdg. 18:25; Ruth 1:16; Ruth 2:22; 1 Sam. 10:5; 1 Sam. 22:17; 1 Sam. 22:18; 2 Sam. 1:15; 1 Ki. 2:25; 1 Ki. 2:29; 1 Ki. 2:31; 1 Ki. 2:32; 1 Ki. 2:34; 1 Ki. 2:46; Job 21:15; Job 36:32; Isa. 47:3; Isa. 53:6; Isa. 53:12; Isa. 59:16; Isa. 64:5; Jer. 7:16; Jer. 15:11; Jer. 27:18; Jer. 36:25; Amos 5:19
MacArthur: In Leviticus 16:1-34+ when atonement was made, one animal was killed and one animal was kept alive. And the priests would lay their hands on that one animal, the scapegoat (picture), as if to place all the sins of the people on the scapegoat and he would be sent out into the wilderness, never to return again, never. Jesus is the scapegoat. He picks up all our sin, pays the penalty in full. He’s the sacrificial animal as well, and He’s the scapegoat and carries them all away.
In summary when God caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Jesus on the Cross, e was not overlooking our sins but was punishing the Son Who took our sins upon Himself. This is amazing grace, amazing love!
Spurgeon - “The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” - Sin I may compare to the rays of some evil sun. Sin was scattered throughout this world as abundantly as light, and Christ is made to suffer the full effect of the baleful rays which stream from the sun of sin. God as it were holds up a burning glass and concentrates all the scattered rays in a focus upon Christ. That seems to be the thought of the text, “The Lord hath focused upon him the iniquity of us all.” That which was scattered abroad everywhere is here brought into terrible concentration.
THE SHEPHERD
VIOLENTLY STRUCK
06293)(paga/pagha) means to meet, encounter, reach. To cause anything to strike or fall on a person. Thus the KJV "laid on Him" is too weak, for this Hebrew verb in this context conveys the nuance of a violent strike. For example in 2 Sa 1:15 paga means "cut him down," or kill him! B W Newton writes "In other passages our iniquity is spoken of as resting on the Holy One, and He bearing it. Here (Isa 53:6) it is spoken of as coming upon Him like a destroying foe and overwhelming Him with the wrath that it brought with it" So it was not our sin that killed the Servant of Jehovah but Jehovah Who killed His Servant to pay the sin debt we could never have paid -- paying for it with His precious blood (1 Pe 1:18-19+). Some have objected to such a harsh picture of God as Judge killing His own Son and so they have suggested a number of "theories" regarding Christ's substitutionary death. For more on this important subject see What are the various theories on the atonement? The death of Christ is best understood as the doctrine of penal substitution which in short sees Christ as our substitute to take the penalty for our sins, to satisfy the justice of God which is exactly what Paul says in 2 Cor 5:21 writing "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Peter says it this way "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Pe 2:24)
Motyer says caused to fall is "descriptive of the divine act of gathering into one place, on to one substitutionary Victim, the sins of all the sinners whom the Lord purposed to save. The Servant is the solution of the LORD to the needs of sinners." (Ibid)
Allen Ross on paga - The verb “has laid” on him is the verb paga’ (hipgia’); this verb will be an important one to study because it will be repeated at the end of the song as the summation-”he made intercession” for the transgressors. It is a word that means “to intercede, interpose.” In places in the Bible it is used to describe prayer, an intercession that is burdensome. But here it is substitutionary suffering that will divert the punishment-interposed.
Paga - 45x in 43v - approach(1), attack(2), attacked(1), came(1), cut him down(1), entreat(2), fall(7), fell(4), happen(1), intercede(2), interceded(1), kill(1), make supplication(1), meet(3), meets(3), met(2), pleaded(1), reached(6), spare(1), strike the mark(1), touched(1), touched and reached(1), urge(1)
Gen. 23:8; Gen. 28:11; Gen. 32:1; Exod. 5:3; Exod. 5:20; Exod. 23:4; Num. 35:19; Num. 35:21; Jos. 2:16; Jos. 16:7; Jos. 17:10; Jos. 19:11; Jos. 19:22; Jos. 19:26; Jos. 19:27; Jos. 19:34; Jdg. 8:21; Jdg. 15:12; Jdg. 18:25; Ruth 1:16; Ruth 2:22; 1 Sam. 10:5; 1 Sam. 22:17; 1 Sam. 22:18; 2 Sam. 1:15; 1 Ki. 2:25; 1 Ki. 2:29; 1 Ki. 2:31; 1 Ki. 2:32; 1 Ki. 2:34; 1 Ki. 2:46; Job 21:15; Job 36:32; Isa. 47:3; Isa. 53:6; Isa. 53:12; Isa. 59:16; Isa. 64:5; Jer. 7:16; Jer. 15:11; Jer. 27:18; Jer. 36:25; Amos 5:19
MacArthur: In Leviticus 16:1-34+ when atonement was made, one animal was killed and one animal was kept alive. And the priests would lay their hands on that one animal, the scapegoat (picture), as if to place all the sins of the people on the scapegoat and he would be sent out into the wilderness, never to return again, never. Jesus is the scapegoat. He picks up all our sin, pays the penalty in full. He’s the sacrificial animal as well, and He’s the scapegoat and carries them all away.
In summary when God caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Jesus on the Cross, e was not overlooking our sins but was punishing the Son Who took our sins upon Himself. This is amazing grace, amazing love!
Spurgeon - “The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” - Sin I may compare to the rays of some evil sun. Sin was scattered throughout this world as abundantly as light, and Christ is made to suffer the full effect of the baleful rays which stream from the sun of sin. God as it were holds up a burning glass and concentrates all the scattered rays in a focus upon Christ. That seems to be the thought of the text, “The Lord hath focused upon him the iniquity of us all.” That which was scattered abroad everywhere is here brought into terrible concentration.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I don't think there are secret keys to truth that require a "genuine Indian guru to teach us a better way". (Apologies to Dr. Hook). If anything, this thread has shown me the value of linear Western thinking and Calvinistic theology in a way that I did not appreciate before.
J C Philpot - The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6
What heart can conceive, what tongue express what the holy soul of Christ endured when "the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all?" In the garden of Gethsemane, what a load of guilt, what a weight of sin, what an intolerable burden of the wrath of God did that sacred humanity endure, until the pressure of sorrow and woe forced the drops of blood to fall as sweat from his brow. The human nature in its weakness recoiled, as it were, from the cup of anguish put into his hand. His body could scarcely bear the load that pressed him down; his soul, under the waves and billows of God's wrath, sank in deep mire where there was no standing, and came into deep waters where the floods overflowed him (Ps. 69:1, 2).
And how could it be otherwise when that sacred humanity was enduring all the wrath of God, suffering the very pangs of hell, and wading in all the depths of guilt and terror? When the blessed Lord was made sin (or a sin-offering) for us, he endured in his holy soul all the pangs of distress, horror, alarm, misery, and guilt that the elect would have felt in hell forever; and not only as any one of them would have felt, but as the collective whole would have experienced under the outpouring of the everlasting wrath of God. The anguish, the distress, the darkness, the condemnation, the shame, the guilt, the unutterable horror, that any or all of his quickened family have ever experienced under a sense of God's wrath, the curse of the law, and the terrors of hell, are only faint, feeble reflections of what the Lord felt in the garden and on the cross; for there were attendant circumstances in his case which are not, and indeed cannot be in theirs, and which made the distress and agony of his holy soul, both in nature and degree, such as none but he could feel or know.
He as the eternal Son of God, who had lain in his bosom before all worlds, had known all the blessedness and happiness of the love and favor of the Father, his own Father, shining upon him, for he was "by him as one brought up with him, and was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him" (Prov. 8:30). When, then, instead of love he felt his displeasure, instead of the beams of his favor he experienced the frowns and terrors of his wrath, instead of the light of his countenance he tasted the darkness and gloom of desertion--what heart can conceive, what tongue express the bitter anguish which must have wrung the soul of our suffering Surety under this agonizing experience?
What heart can conceive, what tongue express what the holy soul of Christ endured when "the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all?" In the garden of Gethsemane, what a load of guilt, what a weight of sin, what an intolerable burden of the wrath of God did that sacred humanity endure, until the pressure of sorrow and woe forced the drops of blood to fall as sweat from his brow. The human nature in its weakness recoiled, as it were, from the cup of anguish put into his hand. His body could scarcely bear the load that pressed him down; his soul, under the waves and billows of God's wrath, sank in deep mire where there was no standing, and came into deep waters where the floods overflowed him (Ps. 69:1, 2).
And how could it be otherwise when that sacred humanity was enduring all the wrath of God, suffering the very pangs of hell, and wading in all the depths of guilt and terror? When the blessed Lord was made sin (or a sin-offering) for us, he endured in his holy soul all the pangs of distress, horror, alarm, misery, and guilt that the elect would have felt in hell forever; and not only as any one of them would have felt, but as the collective whole would have experienced under the outpouring of the everlasting wrath of God. The anguish, the distress, the darkness, the condemnation, the shame, the guilt, the unutterable horror, that any or all of his quickened family have ever experienced under a sense of God's wrath, the curse of the law, and the terrors of hell, are only faint, feeble reflections of what the Lord felt in the garden and on the cross; for there were attendant circumstances in his case which are not, and indeed cannot be in theirs, and which made the distress and agony of his holy soul, both in nature and degree, such as none but he could feel or know.
He as the eternal Son of God, who had lain in his bosom before all worlds, had known all the blessedness and happiness of the love and favor of the Father, his own Father, shining upon him, for he was "by him as one brought up with him, and was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him" (Prov. 8:30). When, then, instead of love he felt his displeasure, instead of the beams of his favor he experienced the frowns and terrors of his wrath, instead of the light of his countenance he tasted the darkness and gloom of desertion--what heart can conceive, what tongue express the bitter anguish which must have wrung the soul of our suffering Surety under this agonizing experience?
The Lamb of God in Scripture - Ian Paisley - A Text A Day
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." I Peter 1:19
The Bible gives us seven pictures of the Lamb of God.
I. The Lamb Specified
"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." (Genesis 22:8).
"Where is the Lamb," cried Isaac. Abraham replied "God shall provide himself a lamb for the burnt offering." Note three things about the specified lamb. 1, Of God's provision; 2, For God Himself; 3, For the fire of sacrifice—a burnt offering.
II. The Lamb Typified
"Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house." (Exodus 12:3).
Christ is the Passover Lamb sacrificed for us.
III. The Lamb Personified
"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)
The Person of the Son of God is the Lamb of God.
IV. The Lamb Identified
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world... And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptise with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptiseth with the Holy Ghost... And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." (John 1:29, 33, 34).
Here is the dearest possible identification of the Lamb of God.
V. The Lamb Crucified
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." (I Peter 1:19)
O the Bleeding Lamb! O the Bleeding Lamb! He was found worthy!
VI. The Lamb Glorified
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6).
A Slain lamb standing in the midst of God's Everlasting Throne. What glory is this. Ah, the Lamb is all the glory of Emmanuel's Land,
VII. The Lamb Satisfied
"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:27).
The Lamb will bring every son of God to heaven and satisfy them and Himself in the Paradise of God. Those in the Lamb's book of life will partake forever of the Lamb's water of life.
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." I Peter 1:19
The Bible gives us seven pictures of the Lamb of God.
I. The Lamb Specified
"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." (Genesis 22:8).
"Where is the Lamb," cried Isaac. Abraham replied "God shall provide himself a lamb for the burnt offering." Note three things about the specified lamb. 1, Of God's provision; 2, For God Himself; 3, For the fire of sacrifice—a burnt offering.
II. The Lamb Typified
"Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house." (Exodus 12:3).
Christ is the Passover Lamb sacrificed for us.
III. The Lamb Personified
"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)
The Person of the Son of God is the Lamb of God.
IV. The Lamb Identified
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world... And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptise with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptiseth with the Holy Ghost... And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." (John 1:29, 33, 34).
Here is the dearest possible identification of the Lamb of God.
V. The Lamb Crucified
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." (I Peter 1:19)
O the Bleeding Lamb! O the Bleeding Lamb! He was found worthy!
VI. The Lamb Glorified
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6).
A Slain lamb standing in the midst of God's Everlasting Throne. What glory is this. Ah, the Lamb is all the glory of Emmanuel's Land,
VII. The Lamb Satisfied
"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:27).
The Lamb will bring every son of God to heaven and satisfy them and Himself in the Paradise of God. Those in the Lamb's book of life will partake forever of the Lamb's water of life.
Paul Apple adds "Where were His disciples? Well, they were living out Zechariah 13:7 “strike the shepherd and the sheep will be – ” What? – “scattered.” They were long gone. They had fled. Matthew says that they fled and Mark says the same thing that the Shepherd was struck and the sheep were scattered. Who was there to speak in His behalf?"
That He was cut off out of the land of the living - The Hebrew verb cut off (see below) is violent verb which was used by King Solomon to suggest they "divide (gazar) the living child in two" which brought forth the truth of who was the actual mother of the child. Clearly in this context, the picture is that the Suffering Servant would be cut off from life itself by being killed, executed as a criminal even though He was innocent. The meaning of this passage is clear - Jesus was cut off, killed.
The transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was [due] - My people (Hebrew - ammi) is a term which indicates the Jews or Israel (e.g., Isa 40:1, Isa 47:6, Isa 51:4, 51:16, Isa 52:4, 5, 6, etc). This statement corrects the erroneous understanding the Jews had in Isaiah 53:3 (He was despised, and we did not esteem Him). The reason Jesus was cut off out of the land of the living is because of the transgression (pesha' = rebellious acts) of the Jews (of course by extension His death was ultimately for the transgressions of the Jews AND the Gentiles). The Jews (and we Gentiles by application) deserved the stroke (Hebrew = nega) that fell on the Servant of Jehovah.
But (yet) - What does this term of contrast signify? What have the redeemed remnant just said was true of the Servant of Jehovah? No violence...nor...deceit indicates His internal and external holiness. But in spite of that blameless state, Jehovah was pleased to crush Him. If this statement is all we knew, it would sound like God was being unfair to His Son. But of course, that's not all of the story, and in fact is the very reason for which God sent His Son John writing "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (Jn 3:16).
That He was cut off out of the land of the living - The Hebrew verb cut off (see below) is violent verb which was used by King Solomon to suggest they "divide (gazar) the living child in two" which brought forth the truth of who was the actual mother of the child. Clearly in this context, the picture is that the Suffering Servant would be cut off from life itself by being killed, executed as a criminal even though He was innocent. The meaning of this passage is clear - Jesus was cut off, killed.
The transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was [due] - My people (Hebrew - ammi) is a term which indicates the Jews or Israel (e.g., Isa 40:1, Isa 47:6, Isa 51:4, 51:16, Isa 52:4, 5, 6, etc). This statement corrects the erroneous understanding the Jews had in Isaiah 53:3 (He was despised, and we did not esteem Him). The reason Jesus was cut off out of the land of the living is because of the transgression (pesha' = rebellious acts) of the Jews (of course by extension His death was ultimately for the transgressions of the Jews AND the Gentiles). The Jews (and we Gentiles by application) deserved the stroke (Hebrew = nega) that fell on the Servant of Jehovah.
But (yet) - What does this term of contrast signify? What have the redeemed remnant just said was true of the Servant of Jehovah? No violence...nor...deceit indicates His internal and external holiness. But in spite of that blameless state, Jehovah was pleased to crush Him. If this statement is all we knew, it would sound like God was being unfair to His Son. But of course, that's not all of the story, and in fact is the very reason for which God sent His Son John writing "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (Jn 3:16).
Last edited:
We have to be careful when we look back. For example, you mention Origen. He did teach a Ransom Theory, however a few years ago I read articles (peer-reviewed) questioning to what extent he really meant God paid Satan. The issue is they often used "Satan" in sermons indicating or symbolizing death and sin as a principle or even personified (which is biblical....e g., Paul's personification of sin). But it is sure that some came to view God as paying Satan (as evidenced by others of the time holding a Ransom Theory focusing on payment rather than an entity receiving the payment.....e.g., "Mike paid the price for licking the flag pole").
But you are right that there are many different views. Of tge main views there seems to be only two categories - Christus Victor as a theme (including many views) and Substitution (including the traditional form of Substitution Theory and Penal Substitution Theory).
I'd place Augustine in the Substitution Theory category ... but definitely not Penal Substitution Theory because he taught that the idea Christ died to appease God was heresy.
I guess Ransom Theory could be pushed into Substitution Theory as well....but only as Representation (which is common to most Christians).
Riddle - It "pleased the Lord" to bruise (crush) His sinless, spotless Son! Clearly, the word "pleased" is not used in its accepted sense today, but to denote the "good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:5). This describes "the determinate counsel of Jehovah in causing man's sin to be subservient to the actings of His grace, in the suffering of His sinless Servant on the cross" (W. E. Vine). It must be stressed again that His sufferings here were divinely-inflicted. It was God's love for poor sinful man that caused Him to "bruise" His Son. (What the Bible Teaches – Isaiah)
Pleased means Jehovah delighted or took pleasure in His Son's willing sacrifice. It was the Father's will (ESV = "it was the will of the LORD") for His Servant to suffer and die (Mt 26:39; Lk 22:42; Jn 12:27; Ac 2:23). It was through His Servant's suffering that He accomplished His will. It would easy to misread what this verse is saying - clearly the Father did not enjoy seeing His Son suffer, but He was pleased because the Servants sufferings accomplished the greatest good, provision of redemption for sinful mankind.
David Thompson - The will of God for Jesus Christ was filled with sorrow and grief. The will of God meant that He would come to this earth and be mocked, brutalized, and executed. God’s will meant that Jesus Christ would physically die in the prime of His life. It meant that He wouldn’t appear to be successful at all. It meant He would be deprived of a good long life. It meant that He would be very lonely, even deprived of most normal family and friends. It also meant He would be deprived of justice. But in spite of how nightmarish His assignment was, the one thing Jesus Christ could say that none of us will ever be able to say is, “I always did My Father’s will.” (Isaiah 53:10-12 Commentary)
Him of course is the Servant of Jehovah, Who has come to accomplish His Father's will (Mt 26:42, Mark 14:36). And in this context Who does the crushing? Clearly it is Jehovah, God the Father Who crushes His Own, only Son! We sometimes think the Jews and Romans killed Jesus, and on one hand there is truth in that line of reasoning, but the more complete truth is that God the Father put His Son to death as a sacrifice for sin!
To crush speaks of the crushing blow (broken in pieces) that fell on Jesus on the Cross when He was made sin for us and suffered the full force of the blow from the hand of His Father as God poured out the full force of His unfettered wrath on His sinless Son Who bore our sin! Isaiah 53:5+ uses the same word (daka) describing how Jehovah's Servant was "crushed for our iniquities." The same idea is conveyed in this passage. The Servant was crushed by His Father just as in Isaiah 53:5. This is amazing - that the Father would love us so much He would willingly give His Son as a sacrifice, even crushing His Son, and that the Son would love us so much that He would willingly become the sacrificial Lamb. (cf Ro 5:8+) Amazing Grace indeed!
Pleased means Jehovah delighted or took pleasure in His Son's willing sacrifice. It was the Father's will (ESV = "it was the will of the LORD") for His Servant to suffer and die (Mt 26:39; Lk 22:42; Jn 12:27; Ac 2:23). It was through His Servant's suffering that He accomplished His will. It would easy to misread what this verse is saying - clearly the Father did not enjoy seeing His Son suffer, but He was pleased because the Servants sufferings accomplished the greatest good, provision of redemption for sinful mankind.
David Thompson - The will of God for Jesus Christ was filled with sorrow and grief. The will of God meant that He would come to this earth and be mocked, brutalized, and executed. God’s will meant that Jesus Christ would physically die in the prime of His life. It meant that He wouldn’t appear to be successful at all. It meant He would be deprived of a good long life. It meant that He would be very lonely, even deprived of most normal family and friends. It also meant He would be deprived of justice. But in spite of how nightmarish His assignment was, the one thing Jesus Christ could say that none of us will ever be able to say is, “I always did My Father’s will.” (Isaiah 53:10-12 Commentary)
Him of course is the Servant of Jehovah, Who has come to accomplish His Father's will (Mt 26:42, Mark 14:36). And in this context Who does the crushing? Clearly it is Jehovah, God the Father Who crushes His Own, only Son! We sometimes think the Jews and Romans killed Jesus, and on one hand there is truth in that line of reasoning, but the more complete truth is that God the Father put His Son to death as a sacrifice for sin!
To crush speaks of the crushing blow (broken in pieces) that fell on Jesus on the Cross when He was made sin for us and suffered the full force of the blow from the hand of His Father as God poured out the full force of His unfettered wrath on His sinless Son Who bore our sin! Isaiah 53:5+ uses the same word (daka) describing how Jehovah's Servant was "crushed for our iniquities." The same idea is conveyed in this passage. The Servant was crushed by His Father just as in Isaiah 53:5. This is amazing - that the Father would love us so much He would willingly give His Son as a sacrifice, even crushing His Son, and that the Son would love us so much that He would willingly become the sacrificial Lamb. (cf Ro 5:8+) Amazing Grace indeed!
MacArthur explains it this way - In other words, the LORD is doing something to Him that is horrific. Men, of course, are unjustly crushing Him. Men are doing the worst that they can do with an unjust trial, brutality, abuse, harassment, punching, slapping, hitting with sticks, crowning with thorns and nailing and piercing. Men are doing the worst that they can do, the worst that sinners can do, and they are pleased to do that.
But here, God is pleased and God is delighted to crush Him.
While men are doing the worst that they can do, at the very same time God is doing the best that He can do. Men are doing the worst that they can do for the sinless One, and God is doing the best that He can do for sinners. His death is God’s work.
He is God’s Lamb , chosen by God, chosen by the determinate counsel of God ; the purpose and counsel of God has determined that He will die (Acts 2:23, Acts 4:28). It is God who laid on Him the iniquity of us all. It is God who crushes Him. It is God who cuts Him off out of the land of the living. God, who finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked, as Ezekiel 18:32 says, finds full pleasure in the death of the Righteous One (Isa 53:11) God, Who finds no pleasure in the death of sinners, finds full pleasure in the death of the sinless One....God’s delight and God’s pleasure in crushing His Son in this way was not in His pain, but in His purpose. It was not in His agony; it was in His accomplishment. It was not in His suffering; it was in His salvation ...It was the outcome that pleased God, not the pain. But the pain and the agony was necessary." (The Sovereign Servant - Part 1) (Bolding Added)
Spurgeon - “It pleased the LORD to bruise him.” - God were to lay his finger on any one of us, only his finger, we should be struck with sickness, paralysis, and death. Then think of God smiting! God must smite sin wherever he sees it. So when he saw our sin laid on his Son, he smote him with the blows of a cruel One, till beneath that smiting his Son cried out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46).
But here, God is pleased and God is delighted to crush Him.
While men are doing the worst that they can do, at the very same time God is doing the best that He can do. Men are doing the worst that they can do for the sinless One, and God is doing the best that He can do for sinners. His death is God’s work.
He is God’s Lamb , chosen by God, chosen by the determinate counsel of God ; the purpose and counsel of God has determined that He will die (Acts 2:23, Acts 4:28). It is God who laid on Him the iniquity of us all. It is God who crushes Him. It is God who cuts Him off out of the land of the living. God, who finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked, as Ezekiel 18:32 says, finds full pleasure in the death of the Righteous One (Isa 53:11) God, Who finds no pleasure in the death of sinners, finds full pleasure in the death of the sinless One....God’s delight and God’s pleasure in crushing His Son in this way was not in His pain, but in His purpose. It was not in His agony; it was in His accomplishment. It was not in His suffering; it was in His salvation ...It was the outcome that pleased God, not the pain. But the pain and the agony was necessary." (The Sovereign Servant - Part 1) (Bolding Added)
Spurgeon - “It pleased the LORD to bruise him.” - God were to lay his finger on any one of us, only his finger, we should be struck with sickness, paralysis, and death. Then think of God smiting! God must smite sin wherever he sees it. So when he saw our sin laid on his Son, he smote him with the blows of a cruel One, till beneath that smiting his Son cried out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46).
John,
There were many ideas people starting suggesting.
I from time to time look at what was put forth, but usually as you said earlier, there are some truths in each view...but other parts are lacking.
I am not that invested in what the early people thought as I do not think they had the resources to examine fully the scriptures.
Most of the theological base after the Apostolic teaching was put in order through contentions with false teachers, denying the Person of Christ,
the Trinity, a grace gospel.
basically Satan sought to cover over truth.
The Reformers, puritans, and godly elect people were used to recover Apostolic truth,
Paul Apple summarizes this section - Results of the Crushing of the Righteous Servant
1. Benefits to God the Father -- Reparations Satisfied by the Guilt Offering “If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,”
2. Benefits to God the Son -- Results of the Voluntary Sacrificial Death
a. Result #1 – Spiritual Offspring
b. Result #2 – Resurrected Life
c. Result #3 – Worthwhile Mission (“And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.”)
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering - Literally in Hebrew it reads “Because He would render Himself as a guilt offering. Because He would give His life to save sinners.” For Messiah to be a guilt offering meant He had to die just as did the animals in the Levitical guilt offering (cf Lev 5:7+). Himself is nephesh so that it is even more poignantly rendered Messiah "would render His soul." Oh my. Not just His body but His very soul for you and for me. How unfathomable is this act of His love!
The NET Bible renders it "once restitution is made, he will see descendants and enjoy long life." As MacArthur explains below restitution was part of the guilt offering. Look at this pattern in Leviticus
“If a person acts unfaithfully and sins unintentionally against the LORD’S holy things, then he shall bring his guilt offering to the LORD: a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation in silver by shekels, in terms of the shekel of the sanctuary, for a guilt offering. 16 “He shall make restitution for that which he has sinned against the holy thing, and shall add to it a fifth part of it and give it to the priest. The priest shall then make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering, and it will be forgiven him. (Lev 5:15-16)
1. Benefits to God the Father -- Reparations Satisfied by the Guilt Offering “If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,”
2. Benefits to God the Son -- Results of the Voluntary Sacrificial Death
a. Result #1 – Spiritual Offspring
b. Result #2 – Resurrected Life
c. Result #3 – Worthwhile Mission (“And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.”)
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering - Literally in Hebrew it reads “Because He would render Himself as a guilt offering. Because He would give His life to save sinners.” For Messiah to be a guilt offering meant He had to die just as did the animals in the Levitical guilt offering (cf Lev 5:7+). Himself is nephesh so that it is even more poignantly rendered Messiah "would render His soul." Oh my. Not just His body but His very soul for you and for me. How unfathomable is this act of His love!
The NET Bible renders it "once restitution is made, he will see descendants and enjoy long life." As MacArthur explains below restitution was part of the guilt offering. Look at this pattern in Leviticus
“If a person acts unfaithfully and sins unintentionally against the LORD’S holy things, then he shall bring his guilt offering to the LORD: a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation in silver by shekels, in terms of the shekel of the sanctuary, for a guilt offering. 16 “He shall make restitution for that which he has sinned against the holy thing, and shall add to it a fifth part of it and give it to the priest. The priest shall then make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering, and it will be forgiven him. (Lev 5:15-16)
@Iconoclast
I would ask one question concerning you presentation of what others have held.
How do they avoid or discuss God punishing God?
I would ask one question concerning you presentation of what others have held.
How do they avoid or discuss God punishing God?
37818
Well-Known Member
Wrong concept. God is one and not parts. The Persons are who are different. See Hebrews 1:3. He paid for sin while as God maintenanced creation.
Do not the Scriptures establish the Father and the Son as equal?
Did notChrist state to the apostle, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father”?
How are these verses representing God brutalized the Son?
3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs.
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.9You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.9You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
Does Hebrews 1 really answer the question I ask @Iconoclast ?
I don't know that I would say Satan was obscuring truth as much as people were interpreting Scripture within their worldview.
I see this in the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement as well. Prior to the 14th to 15th century it would have been impossible for the theory to exist. It was an attempt to reform Roman Catholic doctrine and this probably contributed to interpreting Scripture along the lines of a "western worldview".
But even though I am comfortable saying Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine I would not go so far as to call it Satanic. The gospel does, however obscured, shine through.
In truth, most Christians who would say they affirm Penal Substitution Theory and think (rightly) that Christ took the consequences of sin we deserved probably stop short of believing Christ suffered God's punishment.
This is one reason that I, while explaining my view, don't try to change other people's mind. I encourage them to consider what is taught and compare that against what is written (not what some feel is implied) in the Bible. Where they land is between them and God.
I am encouraged by movements within Cakvinism and Reformed churches away from Penal Substitution Theory, but I do not know how Calvinism could legitimately stand apart from it. I guess time will show.
I really don’t see a problem with the basic Calvinistic thinking being realigned with the victorious Christ view.
indeed, it would further bring endorsements to the Sovereignty of God as totally in control at all times and in all ages, as well as confirm all aspects of His divinity and character.
Hello Agedman,
God took upon Himself the form of The Servant in the incarnation.phil2. heb2:9-16. Because the children were flesh and blood He likewise took part of the same...as the God man.
That was in order to Accomplish Redemption.
As The last Adam He overcame every obstacle the world the flesh and the devil tried in order to fulfill the eternal purpose of the triune God.
In love He came to die for the children the Father gave to Him as He took the wrath of God as mediator and surety for those Children given to Him.
In Revelation 12:17 I think Satan as a defeated for goes about seeking to do anything to oppose God.
He could not kill the infant Jesus, He could not prevent Jesus going to the cross.
He could not prevent the resurrection, or ascension.
He can only try to obscure truth.
I think someone accused me of being lost and blinded just yesterday.
The teaching of penal substitutionary atonement is central to the gospel.
J.I.Packer wrote a helpful article..22pages.that is helpful.
""The Logic of Penal Substitution" by J.I. Packer" "The Logic of Penal Substitution" by J.I. Packer
Last edited:
- Status