I don't know...an aptly placed paw from a bear might get you pretty high
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The Perfect Church?
- Thread starter Luke2427
- Start date
It would be one that attends to appropriate atmospheres.
There would be a time for lofty reverence in worship and a time for casual camaraderie in fellowship.
It would be one where people are so concerned about their own faults that they both do not judge others for theirs and at the same time can empathize compassionately with their struggles.
There would be a time for lofty reverence in worship and a time for casual camaraderie in fellowship.
It would be one where people are so concerned about their own faults that they both do not judge others for theirs and at the same time can empathize compassionately with their struggles.
I don't know...an aptly placed paw from a bear might get you pretty high
:laugh::thumbs:
I find it bothersome and telling that so few want to describe what they think the church should look like.
We don't hesitate to discuss some philosophical issue but we shy away from issues that are tied to where we actually live.
Here's what I find.
Most of us are phd's in cursing the darkness.
And at the same time we are first grade flunkies at turning on the light.
We don't hesitate to discuss some philosophical issue but we shy away from issues that are tied to where we actually live.
Here's what I find.
Most of us are phd's in cursing the darkness.
And at the same time we are first grade flunkies at turning on the light.
Maybe you should go start a church in a bar. Maybe that would be a perfect church for you.
Must be all the drunks objecting to it. Probably a good place to start an AA meeting.
Church should have a softball team. Should also have community outreach.....like guys helping to repair house's, repair car's, cut lawns & shovel drive way's, rake leaves & cut down dead trees. Cook for shut in's, drive people to doctors...work on their own communities.
Foot washing...I am serious.
I might suggest that it is an area where most of us (a) recognize deficiencies in our churches, but don't know how to solve them, and (b) have seen those church that we look up to as examples, but have also seen that even they are no perfect in their polity, or their application of polity, and that many of those churches over time have revealed their weaknesses, especially as some have tried to copy their successes in different contexts, whether 9marks, John Piper's church, Sovereign grace churches, Independent Baptist Churches, Reformed Baptist Churches, Sojourn Church, Acts 29 churches, Purpose Driven Churches, even those Baptists who feel like they might be better off in a Presbyterian, or eastern Orthodox church...find that it truly is a grass is greener situation.
...many who are in what they consider to be a deficient church situation, will seek out one of the above types of church thinking it to be better, and in some cases, they will find that true, but will also find that each has it's own issues and problems.
But you are right...Many, probably myself included, have grown to accept a certain level of "well, that's just the way it is." When dealing with churches and church members we feel are not what they should be. Perhaps it might be helpful to consider what level of accomodation a pastor should employ when seeking to institute positive change in a congregation, ie accomodation to church practices he believes to be detrimental to church effectiveness?
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Oh, it's possible to be in a "perfect"...healthy church.
I know I was in one for 8 years before I moved as a new believer. The pastor ministered there for 38 years till he passed with NO decentions or real problems....so it is very possible.So my foundation is one of LOVE, TRUTH and BALANCE this is what is needed in a healthy church.
I'm actually working on a book called "What God Desires Of A Healthy Church"...notice the word HEALTHY and not PERFECT.
To me the key is BALANCE, TRUTH and LOVE! This is what makes for a "perfect" church, as close as you are going got get to heaven. Think about it?...God is BALANCED, he is Holy Righteous and Just, yet He is also Loving, Merciful and Kind. So that means so shall His word be and so shall we be.
God has given us enough instruction in His word and through the work of the Holy Spirit to know how to live Godly balanced lives and in doing so GLORIFY HIM. The problem is we live in a society that has become very EXTREME...the church is not balanced for the most part, it is either too legalistic or too liberal. It often times seeks it's own benefits rather than the benefits of God and others...Matt 22:37039
From my observance in the 28 years I have been saved, I have not only see a rapid DECLINE in biblical values and precepts, but I have also seen a decline in many who profess the name of Christ who do NOT REALLY CARE!...The bible says
"WITH A VISION THE PEOPLE PERISH"
My hope and prayer is to see God's word "RIGHTLY" divided and distributed among the SHEEP and their SHEPHERDS so our focus of His vision may be acted out in the right application of His word, and in doing so, His mission is accomplished as desired in Matt 28.
I know I was in one for 8 years before I moved as a new believer. The pastor ministered there for 38 years till he passed with NO decentions or real problems....so it is very possible.So my foundation is one of LOVE, TRUTH and BALANCE this is what is needed in a healthy church.
I'm actually working on a book called "What God Desires Of A Healthy Church"...notice the word HEALTHY and not PERFECT.
To me the key is BALANCE, TRUTH and LOVE! This is what makes for a "perfect" church, as close as you are going got get to heaven. Think about it?...God is BALANCED, he is Holy Righteous and Just, yet He is also Loving, Merciful and Kind. So that means so shall His word be and so shall we be.
God has given us enough instruction in His word and through the work of the Holy Spirit to know how to live Godly balanced lives and in doing so GLORIFY HIM. The problem is we live in a society that has become very EXTREME...the church is not balanced for the most part, it is either too legalistic or too liberal. It often times seeks it's own benefits rather than the benefits of God and others...Matt 22:37039
From my observance in the 28 years I have been saved, I have not only see a rapid DECLINE in biblical values and precepts, but I have also seen a decline in many who profess the name of Christ who do NOT REALLY CARE!...The bible says
"WITH A VISION THE PEOPLE PERISH"
My hope and prayer is to see God's word "RIGHTLY" divided and distributed among the SHEEP and their SHEPHERDS so our focus of His vision may be acted out in the right application of His word, and in doing so, His mission is accomplished as desired in Matt 28.
Absolutely!
Good thoughts. Thanks.
The point of this thread is to set up what we think is the ideal church for the world in which we live.
That we are not going to reach this ideal is irrelevant. We are always supposed to be pressing toward it.
The Lord says, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
That's the ideal. We are not going to reach it in this life. But we are supposed to have as good an idea as possible what the ideal looks like and with as much as is in us we are to press toward that ideal.
I think we don't even HAVE an ideal church in mind to press toward so we are just stumbling about in the dark cursing the darkness.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
"TO HIM WHO HAS EARS LET HIM HEAR"
You were given the answer.... Agape Love, Balance and Truth.
God is Holy, Righteous and Just...He also Loving, Merciful and Kind.
Balancing these truths in away that doesn't contradict each other is the answer...a leader needs to know these fundamental truths and not only preach them but live them as well. that is what I experienced in the GOOD church that is my example for my book.
The book will deal with such topics as
What is the Church
Pastors Role
Sheep's Role
Legalistic type churches'
Liberal-Seeker type churches
Spiritual Abuse
Church Discipline and Accountability
Love, Forgiveness, Grace etc
And so much more...it will present a balanced view of God's word and will on each subject...I would be happy to share the introduction and 1st chapter on here if anyone would like to see it?
You were given the answer.... Agape Love, Balance and Truth.
God is Holy, Righteous and Just...He also Loving, Merciful and Kind.
Balancing these truths in away that doesn't contradict each other is the answer...a leader needs to know these fundamental truths and not only preach them but live them as well. that is what I experienced in the GOOD church that is my example for my book.
The book will deal with such topics as
What is the Church
Pastors Role
Sheep's Role
Legalistic type churches'
Liberal-Seeker type churches
Spiritual Abuse
Church Discipline and Accountability
Love, Forgiveness, Grace etc
And so much more...it will present a balanced view of God's word and will on each subject...I would be happy to share the introduction and 1st chapter on here if anyone would like to see it?
Matt22:37-39
New Member
(Book) What God Desires Of A Healthy Church...by me
INTRODUCTION
For the past few years or more I have been deeply burdened to write a book, or at least a blog concerning God’s church these days. This burden I honestly believe comes from God and what His desire of a healthy church according to His word should look like. My perspective will be based upon the Holy Spirit’s work in me of understanding, sound biblical teaching and my own experiences…good and bad. As a new believer 28 years ago, I was fortunate enough to be placed into a church for the first 8 years, that for me has been the soundest and healthiest church I have been in since…was it perfect? No, but it was, from my view point healthy, and the teaching/preaching matched the outward manifestations of Christ’s love, acceptance (never to blatant sin), focus on spiritual growth, accountability, fellowship and so much more by its leaders, especially its head pastor Dr. Bill Whitaker of First Baptist Church in *********. My dedication will be to this great man of God and how grateful I am for how he and his wife Kay, ministered sound teaching, mentoring and by helping me not only with preaching Christ, but being an example of Him.
My understanding by the leading of the Holy Spirit and the teachings of those who taught at FBC, was that God is a balanced God, therefore His word is balanced and so shall His people be. God by His very nature is Holy, Righteous and Just, but He is also Loving, Merciful and Kind…see the balance? All of which must not contradict each other. I would have to say that these are the main characteristics of God and everything about Him and His word fall under these characteristics. Unfortunately we live in a day where EXTREMES are the norm, not balance, and we will see why this is happening in each chapter and what God's word has to say about it…basically because the focus often times isn’t on God’s will, but man's. As I write I will try and show how these characteristics should be seen within the church and in our own lives as believers. My first chapter will be on “What is the church” and will go into such subjects such as proper interpretation, legalistic type churches, seeker friendly type churches, church discipline/restoration, pastors role, the flocks role, outreach, fellowship, love, grace, forgiveness, gossip, spiritual abuse, and so much more…all backed up by scripture. No church and no Christian is "perfect," but being healthy is based on doing all that one can do that will promote positive personal growth for ones self, with God and with others that doesn't involve tearing each other down, apart or to destroy.
Sad to say, church leaders today are hurting more sheep than helping them, therefore the reproduction of healthy sheep is pretty much nonexistent and many sheep are anemic, falling away and dying. I have talked to many believers who have been hurt by the church (including myself), not for "Their SIN" issues, but others who have sinned against them and leaders who do nothing, or the proper thing, when the goal should always be RESTORATION and glorifying God. Usually leaderships main focus being politics, abuse of power and pride, when they should be doing the right thing. People in the church saved or not, nitpick over stupid non essential issues and even ones that are essential. There is much tearing down rather than building up of each other as God intended. It isn’t hard to see why this is happening and where it is coming from, just that many refuse to accept the truth about poor leadership, misuse of power and picking and choosing which parts of the bible they believe in and practice; negating others just as important…missing the big picture and the will of God.
My goal and hope in writing this is to wake people up and hopefully get people's eyes, especially leaders in the church true focus on God and His church rather than on Politics, Prestige, Power, Numbers, and Money etc.
INTRODUCTION
For the past few years or more I have been deeply burdened to write a book, or at least a blog concerning God’s church these days. This burden I honestly believe comes from God and what His desire of a healthy church according to His word should look like. My perspective will be based upon the Holy Spirit’s work in me of understanding, sound biblical teaching and my own experiences…good and bad. As a new believer 28 years ago, I was fortunate enough to be placed into a church for the first 8 years, that for me has been the soundest and healthiest church I have been in since…was it perfect? No, but it was, from my view point healthy, and the teaching/preaching matched the outward manifestations of Christ’s love, acceptance (never to blatant sin), focus on spiritual growth, accountability, fellowship and so much more by its leaders, especially its head pastor Dr. Bill Whitaker of First Baptist Church in *********. My dedication will be to this great man of God and how grateful I am for how he and his wife Kay, ministered sound teaching, mentoring and by helping me not only with preaching Christ, but being an example of Him.
My understanding by the leading of the Holy Spirit and the teachings of those who taught at FBC, was that God is a balanced God, therefore His word is balanced and so shall His people be. God by His very nature is Holy, Righteous and Just, but He is also Loving, Merciful and Kind…see the balance? All of which must not contradict each other. I would have to say that these are the main characteristics of God and everything about Him and His word fall under these characteristics. Unfortunately we live in a day where EXTREMES are the norm, not balance, and we will see why this is happening in each chapter and what God's word has to say about it…basically because the focus often times isn’t on God’s will, but man's. As I write I will try and show how these characteristics should be seen within the church and in our own lives as believers. My first chapter will be on “What is the church” and will go into such subjects such as proper interpretation, legalistic type churches, seeker friendly type churches, church discipline/restoration, pastors role, the flocks role, outreach, fellowship, love, grace, forgiveness, gossip, spiritual abuse, and so much more…all backed up by scripture. No church and no Christian is "perfect," but being healthy is based on doing all that one can do that will promote positive personal growth for ones self, with God and with others that doesn't involve tearing each other down, apart or to destroy.
Sad to say, church leaders today are hurting more sheep than helping them, therefore the reproduction of healthy sheep is pretty much nonexistent and many sheep are anemic, falling away and dying. I have talked to many believers who have been hurt by the church (including myself), not for "Their SIN" issues, but others who have sinned against them and leaders who do nothing, or the proper thing, when the goal should always be RESTORATION and glorifying God. Usually leaderships main focus being politics, abuse of power and pride, when they should be doing the right thing. People in the church saved or not, nitpick over stupid non essential issues and even ones that are essential. There is much tearing down rather than building up of each other as God intended. It isn’t hard to see why this is happening and where it is coming from, just that many refuse to accept the truth about poor leadership, misuse of power and picking and choosing which parts of the bible they believe in and practice; negating others just as important…missing the big picture and the will of God.
My goal and hope in writing this is to wake people up and hopefully get people's eyes, especially leaders in the church true focus on God and His church rather than on Politics, Prestige, Power, Numbers, and Money etc.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
WHAT IS THE CHURCH?
Matthew 16:18 - (Jesus said) …" And I also say to you that you are Peter, (Petra/little rock) and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Jesus is called the Cornerstone which is the center foundation for all other stones. Matt 21:42, 1 Cor. 3:11, Psalms 18:2, 18:31, 1 Peter 1:4-6 and others.
Jesus Christ is the head of the church, also known as the body, believers, saints, the bride, or the body of Christ.
gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph 1:22
which is the head, even Christ, Eph 4:15
even as Christ is the head of the church, Eph 5:23
he is the head of the body, the church, Col 1:18
See also Rom 16:16 1 Cor 12:27
The word church in the Greek is EKKLESIA which has two meanings….”ASSEMBLY OF BELIEVERS” and “CALLED OUT ONES” it doesn’t refer to a building or meeting place and not even a denomination, as much as it does to a group of people. A meeting place would be described in the bible as a building, synagogue or house etc.
If we just take the meaning of “Assembly of Believers”, that could mean any group of people who have any kind of beliefs, who get together to practice their beliefs. You could be in the church of Satan and still be in a “church.”But for the most part when it is used in the bible it is referring to those who have FOLLOWED Jesus Christ in His teachings and believe He IS God in the flesh.
The other meaning of the word church in the bible is referred to those who have been “Called Out” for Himself ” like when Jesus told each of His disciples…”Come and follow me”…He had called them out to follow him. 1 Peter 2:9-10 - says "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
What are we called out for? He called us out to be different, not like the world, but like Christ. Too many believers think that in order to be different they must isolate themselves from the world, they become so heavenly minded they are of No earthy good…but Jesus said in John 18:36, “Be IN the world but not OF it”…True Christianity is being able to SHOW Christ in all circumstances, whether at work, at school, among unsaved family. Not so much by legalism in what we do or don’t do (although that is important as well, especially when it comes to issues the bible calls blatant sin), but more importantly God is concerned with how we treat those around us. All “Religions” have their own set of DO’s and DON’Ts. Isaiah 64:9 says “ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags”…meaning that many times, what we do in the flesh, that man considers good is usually done for selfish reasons and what our “good deeds” will get us. Many even do so thinking that they will EARN brownie points with God or a better position or whatever. But God wants us to be yielded to the Holy Spirit and allow Christ’s righteousness to shine through us and that is what will count. 1 Cor. chapter 3…So to me if one only has good works, yet does not show LOVE, MERCY and GRACE and a heart of forgiveness towards their fellow man, what makes them different than the world? Jesus said in John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”…he also said in Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Meaning if one follows these two commandments then all the others will fall into place.
Is that the real goal of the church today? I think not, what I actually see is that sometimes the world is nicer, less judgmental, more forgiving, accepting, non argumentative and so much more…sad to say I have noticed a huge difference from 20 years ago to now and I believe I know why. Bottom line is the “Church’s” eyes are off the GOAL…to raise HEALTHY PRODUCTIVE SHEEP, that against all odds WE will stick together for the name of Christ, for His sake, not our own pride and prestige. All of us believers struggle with this and is the reason for the fall of Satan on down. I honestly believe it is Satan’s goal in my life to “bring me down” we all have to fight something, but we have something unbelievers do not have and that is the power of the Holy Spirit. But not only that, we should have multi-power in fellowship and building up of one another. But if we choose to ignore those who are hurting or who are in need in the Body, we are only hurting ourselves and Christ’s name and the real goal of glorifying God. God called out those who would represent Him and fulfill the great commission in Matt 28....19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
In the following chapters I will attempt to show areas in which the church is failing and what we can do to make it healthier. I believe we are each held responsible for the truths that have been given us, but I also feel there will NOT be real change unless church LEADERS get their focus back on God and what they can do to produce healthier sheep and not what the sheep can do for them.
THERE IS ONLY ONE THING WE CAN D
N EARTH THAT WE CANNOT DO IN HEAVEN AND THAT IS WIN OTHERS TO CHRIST, WE ARE HIS TOOLS AND WORKMANSHIP.
Next chapter will be about the PASTORS ROLE in the church.
Matthew 16:18 - (Jesus said) …" And I also say to you that you are Peter, (Petra/little rock) and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Jesus is called the Cornerstone which is the center foundation for all other stones. Matt 21:42, 1 Cor. 3:11, Psalms 18:2, 18:31, 1 Peter 1:4-6 and others.
Jesus Christ is the head of the church, also known as the body, believers, saints, the bride, or the body of Christ.
gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph 1:22
which is the head, even Christ, Eph 4:15
even as Christ is the head of the church, Eph 5:23
he is the head of the body, the church, Col 1:18
See also Rom 16:16 1 Cor 12:27
The word church in the Greek is EKKLESIA which has two meanings….”ASSEMBLY OF BELIEVERS” and “CALLED OUT ONES” it doesn’t refer to a building or meeting place and not even a denomination, as much as it does to a group of people. A meeting place would be described in the bible as a building, synagogue or house etc.
If we just take the meaning of “Assembly of Believers”, that could mean any group of people who have any kind of beliefs, who get together to practice their beliefs. You could be in the church of Satan and still be in a “church.”But for the most part when it is used in the bible it is referring to those who have FOLLOWED Jesus Christ in His teachings and believe He IS God in the flesh.
The other meaning of the word church in the bible is referred to those who have been “Called Out” for Himself ” like when Jesus told each of His disciples…”Come and follow me”…He had called them out to follow him. 1 Peter 2:9-10 - says "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
What are we called out for? He called us out to be different, not like the world, but like Christ. Too many believers think that in order to be different they must isolate themselves from the world, they become so heavenly minded they are of No earthy good…but Jesus said in John 18:36, “Be IN the world but not OF it”…True Christianity is being able to SHOW Christ in all circumstances, whether at work, at school, among unsaved family. Not so much by legalism in what we do or don’t do (although that is important as well, especially when it comes to issues the bible calls blatant sin), but more importantly God is concerned with how we treat those around us. All “Religions” have their own set of DO’s and DON’Ts. Isaiah 64:9 says “ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags”…meaning that many times, what we do in the flesh, that man considers good is usually done for selfish reasons and what our “good deeds” will get us. Many even do so thinking that they will EARN brownie points with God or a better position or whatever. But God wants us to be yielded to the Holy Spirit and allow Christ’s righteousness to shine through us and that is what will count. 1 Cor. chapter 3…So to me if one only has good works, yet does not show LOVE, MERCY and GRACE and a heart of forgiveness towards their fellow man, what makes them different than the world? Jesus said in John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”…he also said in Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Meaning if one follows these two commandments then all the others will fall into place.
Is that the real goal of the church today? I think not, what I actually see is that sometimes the world is nicer, less judgmental, more forgiving, accepting, non argumentative and so much more…sad to say I have noticed a huge difference from 20 years ago to now and I believe I know why. Bottom line is the “Church’s” eyes are off the GOAL…to raise HEALTHY PRODUCTIVE SHEEP, that against all odds WE will stick together for the name of Christ, for His sake, not our own pride and prestige. All of us believers struggle with this and is the reason for the fall of Satan on down. I honestly believe it is Satan’s goal in my life to “bring me down” we all have to fight something, but we have something unbelievers do not have and that is the power of the Holy Spirit. But not only that, we should have multi-power in fellowship and building up of one another. But if we choose to ignore those who are hurting or who are in need in the Body, we are only hurting ourselves and Christ’s name and the real goal of glorifying God. God called out those who would represent Him and fulfill the great commission in Matt 28....19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
In the following chapters I will attempt to show areas in which the church is failing and what we can do to make it healthier. I believe we are each held responsible for the truths that have been given us, but I also feel there will NOT be real change unless church LEADERS get their focus back on God and what they can do to produce healthier sheep and not what the sheep can do for them.
THERE IS ONLY ONE THING WE CAN D
N EARTH THAT WE CANNOT DO IN HEAVEN AND THAT IS WIN OTHERS TO CHRIST, WE ARE HIS TOOLS AND WORKMANSHIP. Next chapter will be about the PASTORS ROLE in the church.
THERE WE HAVE IT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!
LOVE IS THE ANSWER!!
Why did none of us consider that???
Thank heavens that this person has come along and opened our eyes.
LOVE is the answer!
Madam, there is not a person on this board who did not know that.
That is a SUPER-oversimplification of the issue at hand.
That's like calling a conference to deal with our national debt and to answer the question, "How do we fix it?" and someone saying "GOD!"
OH!!! Well, there you go!
Though it is true, it is an ultimate truth that we do not know how to implement in a specific context.
You have to pluck ultimate truths from their lofty perches in the heavens, and figure out how to employ them in this earthy world.
Speaking in ultimates is not helpful. Give the ultimate and then SHOW HOW it works itself out practically.
Do that or spare us the insult to our intelligence as if we did not all already know that love and balance are called for!
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Luke...If love is the answer then why aren't more Christians loving?...far from it...In fact the world often times does a better job, I know I've seen it with my own eyes even on here...most including leaders are not pointing to Christ but their own agenda...please stick to the topic and quit majoring on the minors...would you care to share with us how LOVE is to be manifested in the church?