The place of women in the Church

[John Toppass]

You mean like reading "silence" and "not permitted to speak" in Scripture, and then undertaking a paragraph-long, convoluted explanation to reinterpret Paul's words, claiming what he really meant to write was that they can speak at church, they just can't serve as a church officer?

Is that what you mean by twisting and massaging Scripture?

quote the whole and not a part so as to mislead the subject which was on deacons. Now I remember the reason you were on a deserved ignore.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The Bible clearly tells us that Aquilla and Priscilla brought Apollos into their home. My husband and I also will bring people into the church building to meet with them for teaching and counseling. Guess what? While they are in the church building, that is not the church assembly. Is the prohibition against speaking in the church meaning the church building or the assembly? THAT is the difference.

This splitting of hairs just does not make it. At this time in the early church history there were no church buildings as we know them today. They met in homes. The home was the church and the church [building] was the home. In your example the church assembly may not be there but the teaching is just as legitimate. It does not logically follow that Sunday School in the church building is not church because the entire assembly is not there.

I really believe Paul was not giving a general order. He was speaking to a specific problem within the church at Corinth. That church caused him more problems than all the other combined. As I mentioned in an earlier post Clement of Rome talked about the problems of the church at Corinth 50 years later and how they were still having problems there. Also we must always remember that Paul said that sometimes he words are from God and sometimes they are not. In this case he does not say, so we can interpret them as his opinion. After all he grew up in Synagogues where women were not allowed to speak and he was a Pharisee. Or we can interpret them as words from God. As he does not say a person's take on them is an unprovable article of faith.

Let's say we have our new church plant meeting in my house. We then have someone over for dinner on Monday night. Are they in the church? Nope. They are in our home. Just because the church meets in our house doesn't mean that my home is the church. Understand?

Just as if their home was the church, a visitor, especially one they were teaching, was both in their home and in church at one and the same time.
unprovable.

I realize this is a closely held belief for you.

 

[Jerome]

Annsni, thanks for the heads up on Anne Graham Lotz. I had wondered how your gender-role views squared with her speaking at your church.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Annsni, thanks for the heads up on Anne Graham Lotz. I had wondered how your gender-role views squared with her speaking at your church.

Seems to me it is always dangerous to try to put limits on God. It doesn't work. He is always ahead of us and just won't let himself be put in a theological box.

 

[HankD]

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.​

I always think of Deborah and Huldah when this issue presents itself because it appears that they are exceptions to this mandate of the law to which Paul appeals.​

2 Kings 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her).​

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.​

Both of these women were married and presumably in subjection to their husbands.

Deborah also held the "office" of judge as well as being a prophetess.
both of these women had a lot to say to the male leadership at their own request.

Paul also speaks of women praying or prophesying in the church.

1 Corinthians 11

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.​

In verse 16 he puts it in the context of the church​

So the essence of the whole issue seems to be that women not usurp the authority of men in the service of God.

So, does it mean that we have to put a piece of duct tape over their lips when they come into the church?​

Can female missionaries (either singe or married) come to a supporting or home church to give a report to the church concerning their work or the shared work of their husband? I dare say most churches allow this.​

If the pastor and deacons allow it and they are sitting there as well, then she has not usurped their authority and is in fact being obedient to their request to give such a report.​

Can women give a testimony in the church?
Do we allow them to pray aloud at prayer meetings?
Do they remain silent when the hymns are being sung?
Can women participate in a dialogue type Sunday School lesson?
Can they give a report at the annual meeting?
Can they teach other women and children?

I think our actions show that we understand what Paul is saying and that he is disallowing women the formal role of "preacher/teacher" of men.

And even then (under the law to which he appeals) when Israel's men were cowering in fear, God shamed them into action by putting women into the role of prophets and judges.

No, it is not the place for women to speak as the oracle of God or assume the role of pastor in the church, but obviously we allow them several forms of speaking/teaching/communicating in spite of what some of us insist upon as the teaching of "silence" in the churches..

If we went by the 'letter'; "Let your women keep silence in the churches" then, as I said, we would have to put duct tape on their mouths upon entering the church building.

HankD​

 

[annsni]

Annsni, thanks for the heads up on Anne Graham Lotz. I had wondered how your gender-role views squared with her speaking at your church.

I very much enjoyed working with Anne and she was such a sweet and gracious guest - and a very gifted speaker. I would have been much more comfortable had she been preaching to just the woman, though.

 

[annsni]

Seems to me it is always dangerous to try to put limits on God. It doesn't work. He is always ahead of us and just won't let himself be put in a theological box.

Unless He himself put the limits and "theological box" there.

 

[annsni]

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.​

I always think of Deborah and Huldah when this issue presents itself because it appears that they are exceptions to this mandate of the law to which Paul appeals.​

2 Kings 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her).​

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.​

Both of these women were married and presumably in subjection to their husbands.

Deborah also held the "office" of judge as well as being a prophetess.
both of these women had a lot to say to the male leadership at their own request.

Paul also speaks of women praying or prophesying in the church.

1 Corinthians 11

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.​

In verse 16 he puts it in the context of the church​

So the essence of the whole issue seems to be that women not usurp the authority of men in the service of God.

So, does it mean that we have to put a piece of duct tape over their lips when they come into the church?​

Can female missionaries (either singe or married) come to a supporting or home church to give a report to the church concerning their work or the shared work of their husband? I dare say most churches allow this.​

If the pastor and deacons allow it and they are sitting there as well, then she has not usurped their authority and is in fact being obedient to their request to give such a report.​

Can women give a testimony in the church?
Do we allow them to pray aloud at prayer meetings?
Do they remain silent when the hymns are being sung?
Can women participate in a dialogue type Sunday School lesson?
Can they give a report at the annual meeting?
Can they teach other women and children?

I think our actions show that we understand what Paul is saying and that he is disallowing women the formal role of "preacher/teacher" of men.

And even then (under the law to which he appeals) when Israel's men were cowering in fear, God shamed them into action by putting women into the role of prophets and judges.

No, it is not the place for women to speak as the oracle of God or assume the role of pastor in the church, but obviously we allow them several forms of speaking/teaching/communicating in spite of what some of us insist upon as the teaching of "silence" in the churches.

If we went by the 'letter'; "Let your women keep silence in the churches" then, as I said, we would have to put duct tape on their mouths upon entering the church building.

HankD​

Amen. :thumbsup:

 

[HankD]

Amen. :thumbsup:

To what ann?
Putting duct tape on their mouths?

:laugh:

HankD

 

[Dr. Bob]

This will soon hit the 10 page limit, but always need to remind folks that ANY PART can be used to start a NEW THREAD. Please do so.

BTW, Phoebe in Rom 16:1 served as a deacon (use of proper masculine noun that describes the office). Not a deaconess (simply a female serving the assembly). Lots of folks don't realize this and thought it important to add to the discussion.

Remember, 99.9% of the church structure was based on Judaism. In the synagogue, a sh'mash was the "servant" (Hebrew word = same as deacon in Greek). Set up scrolls, lights, mundane physical needs of the body. Women served in that role. Only men, of course, could serve as elders.

 

[annsni]

To what ann?
Putting duct tape on their mouths?

:laugh:

HankD

Only if it matches their jumpers.

 

[Peggy]

Here's my 2 cents.

I don't believe that women should be in the ordained ministry as pastors. I don't think that women should be elders. I do believe in the offices of deacon and deaconess. I don't think that women should not be allowed to vote. I do think that women should be allowed to teach. You can't say that women of your congregation do not have any intelligence or words of wisdom to offer both men and women.

For example, would you allow Corrie Ten Boom to speak or teach in your church? I think she would have something to say about faith and perseverance in the face of the most horrible persecution imaginable.

 

[HankD]

Only if it matches their jumpers.

Oh yes, I've seen the multi-colored duct tape at WalMart and I wondered what it was for.

HankD

 

[Mexdeaf]

Oh yes, I've seen the multi-colored duct tape at WalMart and I wondered what it was for.

HankD

That's for making those inventive 'duct-tape dresses'. Personally I think they are tacky- especially if you wear them out in the sun too long.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Where in the bible is the husband spoken of as submitting to his wife?

I read where Paul said the wife is to submit to the husband in the same way the church submits to Christ. The husband is supposed to love his wife in the same way that Christ loves His church. Does Christ submit to the church? Where does this equal submission come from? Give me some scripture.

Actually the priciple of mutual submission (by women, men, those in authority, those not in authority, etc etc) is found many places in the scriptures, but...interestingly...It shows up very prominantly just above the the passage that deals with the wife submitting...

Ephesians 5, 18-21


With that passage (and others) in mind, clearly, the man should only take the lead when he and his wife can not come to a decision through normal equality based discussion.


Hope that helps.

 

[John Toppass]

This will soon hit the 10 page limit, but always need to remind folks that ANY PART can be used to start a NEW THREAD. Please do so.

BTW, Phoebe in Rom 16:1 served as a deacon (use of proper masculine noun that describes the office). Not a deaconess (simply a female serving the assembly). Lots of folks don't realize this and thought it important to add to the discussion.

Remember, 99.9% of the church structure was based on Judaism. In the synagogue, a sh'mash was the "servant" (Hebrew word = same as deacon in Greek). Set up scrolls, lights, mundane physical needs of the body. Women served in that role. Only men, of course, could serve as elders.

Appreciate your input, but I will stick to what the scripture says and not what I wish it would say.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Peggy

You asked..........

“Are you a Hyles-Anderson College grad, perchance?”

That’s a big fat NO!

I am just a Christian, reminding all of us how much of a blessing it is, to follow the Bible’s instructions.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Only if it matches their jumpers.

Oh, we got to wear dresses and be silent, too?? Come on now.

 

[tinytim]

Ann and Saggy... SHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're being tooo loud!!!!

 

[annsni]

Oh, we got to wear dresses and be silent, too?? Come on now.

You KNOW the Bible says that. We need to wear shapeless jumpers that go to our ankles and show no womanly figure at all. Socks and ugly black shoes to go with it perfects the look. Finally we need to have hair all the way down our backs but we MUST put it up in a bun and cover it because it's only for our husbands to enjoy - everyone else must think that it's ugly. Oh - one more thing - make-up is a no-no. It doesn't matter if your skin is all red and blotchy, you have bags under your eyes that could take a week's worth of laundry or if you have no lashes. God made you that way and you're beautiful.

THAT is the official "perfect, godly woman" look.