The Pleadings of God

Ain't nothing you can do about it. I hope you don't lose any sleep over it. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Mumbo, have you seen Jumbo?

Ken, have you grown tired of thinking?

You have a tendency to resort back to short one-liners that ignore the issues when you get tired. Why don't you take a break, get some rest and come back when you are ready to deal with the arguements instead of waisting our time with posts like this.

 

Your right Eric.

Even if Paul didn't declare "you are dead to sin." in Romans 6:2 you would still not be able to prove that Paul's intent was to say man's spiritual death takes away his ability to believe, reason, count the cost of being a follower of Christ, all of which God calls all mankind to do therefore impling that He has actually granted them that ability.

Why would God command a man to do something he is not capable of doing then judge him with eternal hell for it? Do you really think that brings him glory? It doesn't. It repulses believers and non-believers alike to think of a God who would do such a thing. Yet, you accept it so easily simply because you assume the word "dead" must mean that all mankind are not able to fulfill the commands of God. I don't know how or why you would make that kind of a stretch out of the one word "dead," especially when the word is used in another context that is very similiar in which the word doesnt' carry this connotation.

If you can show me where spiritual death means that man cannot understand, reason, consider the cost, or believe the simple gospel call to repentance I will concede this point to you. Otherwise, you base your entire theology on the assumed meaning of one word.

 

Pastor, thank you for your response. First, let me say I really sat down and considered this passage as a support for the Calvinistic view of "dead" as in relates to Total Depravity. Here are some of my conclusions:

According to this verse what does a lost man look like?
1. Futility of the mind
2. Darkened in their understanding
3. Excluded from life with God

The question is WHY do they have futile minds, darkened understanding and have been excluded from life with God? You obviously imply it is because they are spiritually dead from birth.

I agree. Their spiritual deadness lead them to become futile in their thinking and darkened in their hearts...

Romans 1:21: "...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. "

Notice however they weren't born that way, they BECAME that way after they saw and UNDERSTOOD who God was through His revelation. Which Paul says is why all man is without excuse. Notice this, they are without excuse because they UNDERSTOOD and KNEW God. Calvinism takes that away. You say lost men never understood and never knew God, thus you create an excuse for man with your dogma. Look at this verse:

18 For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth,

Rom. 1:19 since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. 20 From the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.

This is a deathblow to the Calvinistic teachings that repobates can't know or understand the things of God. This verse clearly shows that what CAN be know about God was EVIDENT among them because God showed it to them.

What did He show them?
1. Eternal power
2. Divine Nature

This passage shows that these attributes were CLEARLY SEEN and UNDERSTOOD.

This understanding of this evidence of God is what leaves those who do not choose life without excuse on the day of judgement. Calvinism gives them their excuses back by teaching that repobates don't ever understand or clearly see the what can be known of God. Why? Because God's plan of federal headship and the imputation which leads to the Total Depravity of mankind bound them to this. You not only give them an excuse by saying they didn't understand the things of God you add to it by teaching that God's choices lead to their being unable to understand in the first place. This clearly contradicts Romans 1.

Now, back to your verse in Ephesians. We see that the lost are:
1. Futility of the mind
2. Darkened in their understanding
3. Excluded from life with God

Why are they like this?
1. Becauseof the ignorance that is in them.

Gentiles are ignorant of the things of God because they choose to be ignorant. God has made himself known and clearly seen to them as Romans 1 points out. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. A man can be in the middle of a library and still be ignorant. Lost men have just as much access to the knowledge of God's revelation as believers do, but they must choose to learn of it and acknowledge it.

2. Because of the hardness of their heart;

This is speaking about the self hardening of one who lives in rebellion to the clear revelations of God. But, notice that they are not born that way. They only become that way after they have CLEARLY SEEN and have KNOWN the things of God and rebelled against them. That is the point of Romans 1-3, to show that God has made himself known to all mankind and though none of them sought God or were righteous there where some who were saved through faith despite their unrighteousness, which Paul is now revealing as the means to true righteousness as opposed to living the perfect life through the works of the Law. He was obviously never intending to say that faith was not within man's capasity.

3. They, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

"Calloused" is another term for being self hardened and notice that they BECAME that way, they weren't born that way, therefore, this cannot be in reference to Total Depravity. It could be the result of the influence of the sin nature upon one's life, but it can't be that they were calloused from birth as TD suggests.

Also, notice that it tells us why they became calloused.

They gave THEMSELVES over to sensuality and impurity. They weren't given over to it by imputation of Adam's sin. They were no doubt influenced by that sin nature, but that does not take away their choice to "give themselves over to it." Some people when confronted with the revelation of God don't give themselves over to sensuality and impurity, but they choose to give themselves over to Him by faith.

 

What condition? The condition of being unable to see, hear, understand and believe. Or the conditions of having a sin nature, being ignorant of the things of God and guilty of imputed sin (unrighteous)?

I'm showing that spiritual death doesn't have to mean Total inablity as Calvinism assumes. It can simply mean lacking the desire and knowledge for that which you are dead to, which could be awaken by the Word of truth, the power of salvation which is the gospel itself. This use of the word "dead" would parallel Paul's usage in Romans 6 when he speaks of believers being dead to sin. This doesn't mean they are totally unable to sin, but that their desires have changed and they have become informed of the truth about sin and its consequeses. Being dead to something is simply a way of saying that one is ignorant of it and thus has no desire for it.

You can't choose to eat chocolate if you have never seen chocolate or you've never known chocolate, but once you have seen and tasted it you can choose whether or not you want it, before you are dead to it, it doesn't even exist to you.

Apparently, its not talking about all men, but only all men who don't have faith. Job was considered a righteous man. Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith as Paul explains in the following chapters. That is the deathblow to your rebuttal and your position.

Calvinists are always pointing out that "all" doesn't always mean every single person. Romans 1-3 is pointing out the fact that all are guilty and unrighteous and have failed in light of God's perfect law, but it is not saying that all were declared unrighteous, only that that were declared unrighteous by the works of the law.

In fact, their are some who have been declared righteous, but it was not through works, but through faith, which is the point of the verses following chapter 3 verse 21 all to way through chapter 5. You make the mistake of carrying Paul's point that no one is declared righteous because no one has fulfilled the Law (Romans.1-3:20) over to the new covenant of faith, by teaching that no one can have faith either, as if it is just like the works of the law. That is an absurd conclusion to draw from this text. It is never stated that faith is outside man's ability.

Plus, you avoided the crux of my argument. Calvinists are always arguing that man cannot UNDERSTAND the things of God and Romans 1 clearly teaches that God's divine nature and eternal attributes are evident and can be clearly seen and UNDERSTOOD.

That completely destroyes the Calvinistic claim that all man cannot understand the things of God in regard to salvation. They are without excuse for being condemned because they DO UNDERSTAND. You teach that they CAN'T understand because of God's choice to impute Total Depravity.

How do you deal with that arguement Larry?

When did I say I thought it was a natural inability? I don't see the relevance of this to our discussion. Could you explain further please. Thanks

I don't know what you are talking about here. I agree that there are only two types. Dead and Alive Spiritually. You are the one who is assuming that to be spiritually dead must mean that one is unable to even understand the things of God, which Romans 1 clearly contradicts. In fact, it shows that these repobate people being described clearly saw God through His revelation and his divine nature and eternal powers were evident to them and they UNDERSTOOD it. It goes on to say that their understanding of God and their rejection of him is what shows they have no excuse.

How do you deal with that? Either people who are spiritually dead can or cannot understand God's revelations to them. This verse clearly says that those who are spiritually dead can understand, you seem to say they can't understand. Which is it?